Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 8

[HowardStark]

And this is why I probably should stop responding to your post. It is clear you either don't read or simply ignore what others post if you don't like it.

I was joking about that part.

 

[HowardStark]

That is carried over from the book. In the book Aragorn is way in the back of the bus, not only behind Frodo and Sam, but Merry and Pippin as well. Aragorn barely even shows up in the second half of the book. He's only there for the coronation. He's completely absent for the Mordor and Scouring of the Shire sections.

The EE Release and Jacksons Theater release of ROTK least gives Aragorn things to do. So is not forgotten.

 

[Iceman]

ROTK's multiple & inappropriate (for a theatrical cut) endings, the crappy finale to the otherwise great Pelennor fields battle & the unbelieveable cutting out of the Witch King Vs Gandalf scene are among many examples of what I would call outright mistakes.

Even with its numerous flaws though, it's still my favourite by a small margin & has some of the best scenes in the whole trilogy.

I also agree ROTK is not deserving of a (Best Picture) Oscar on its own and the award is recognition for the trilogy (with the prior 2 being largely ignored for the same reason).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, like I totally get that. I said that I get that. I agreed with you earlier. We are saying the same thing... A disjointed, structurally weak series of Hobbit films is something I hope we don't get, but I fear we are going to.

What I was trying to say is that the comparisons you drew to HP and SW don't work very well, imo. I don't think LotR or the Hobbit should be or can be anything like those in terms of plotting.

EDIT: By the way, about RotK... You did say what you thought was wrong with it, but how exactly would you change it? You complain about it feeling bloated, and then complain about lack of character development (which I agree with about Merry, Legolas, and Gimli but the latter two were given short straws throughout the whole trilogy). Whether you want to agknoledge it or not, these films were not about Aragorn, not even RotK. His plot line was sidelined because Sam and Frodo are the important ones. Now, they could have shifted the view away from Gandalf a bit and more towards Aragorn. I wouldn't have had a problem with that, except Gandalf's storyline is more interesting and better quality than Aragorn's (in RotK).

Aragorn hold a position no different then Thorin's in the new series. He is one of the leads.

Personally, would get rid of most of the ending, while including a lot of what was cut from theatrical release for Aragorn. It isn't perfect, but it is a lot better.

Gandalf's story has so much potential, but I feel like it suffers do to a lack of focus. You have all this build up to this great battle. It was him vs. the Witch-king in the battle of mystical generals, but it doesn't really happen. Instead we have Gandalf running around sword fighting, not truly leading or making any real impact over the warriors of Gondor.

A similar type of battle takes place in Kingdom of Heaven and it is done so much better in terms of how it is structured, the strategy and the role of the leaders. GoT did it better on television with Blackwater. You understand the impact of strategy and leadership.

There are just so many things at the writing stage I think would of helped. Less emphasis of the weeping and finale after finale. It isn't simply that there so many endings, but how pretty much from the moment Aragorn arrives every scene after is played like the end. Aragorn at the gates, Sam carrying Frodo, the ring falling into Mount Doom, Frodo "dies" fade to black, then come back in and have the Eagles save him, then fade again, then the bed scene, the bowing scene, so on and so forth. Everyone feels like it is in slow-motion and played out until it just doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Vartha]

Wasn't it originally published as 6 books in three volumes? Hence the cliffhangers and the way time passes between the volumes.

The LOTR as one huge 9 hour film would be quite jarring considering how each film starts and stops and how different each one looks.

Tolkein was talked into making the books into THREE books by the publisher. The information is on the Extended versions. Not exactly sure on details this second tho.
There was a copy in stores of the ONE book, Pun intended, lol I was tempted to buy it a couple times. t:

 

[Iceman]

There are just so many things at the writing stage I think would of helped. Less emphasis of the weeping and finale after finale. It isn't simply that there so many endings, but how pretty much from the moment Aragorn arrives every scene after is played like the end. Aragorn at the gates, Sam carrying Frodo, the ring falling into Mount Doom, Frodo "dies" fade to black, then come back in and have the Eagles save him, then fade again, then the bed scene, the bowing scene, so on and so forth. Everyone feels like it is in slow-motion and played out until it just doesn't matter anymore.

Yeah, there's nothing like numerous fake fades to black or fake deaths to make you weary of the concepts & stop caring.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

ROTK's multiple & inappropriate (for a theatrical cut) endings, the crappy finale to the otherwise great Pelennor fields battle & the unbelieveable cutting out of the Witch King Vs Gandalf scene are among many examples of what I would call outright mistakes.

Even with its numerous flaws though, it's still my favourite by a small margin & has some of the best scenes in the whole trilogy.

I also agree ROTK is not deserving of a (Best Picture) Oscar on its own and the award is recognition for the trilogy (with the prior 2 being largely ignored for the same reason).

Even if they included it, they shot it all wrong and it gave the wrong message. They were really hell bent on making Gandalf look like an old man all of sudden.

Also pretty funny that they wrote themselves into a corner. Gandalf needs the palantir, but he can't talk to Saruman because they cut it. The face of evil over the first two films is ignored.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Tolkein was talked into making the books into THREE books by the publisher. The information is on the Extended versions. Not exactly sure on details this second tho.
There was a copy in stores of the ONE book, Pun intended, lol I was tempted to buy it a couple times. t:

I bought the Walt Simonson Thor Omnibus like this. Love the look, hate trying to read it. Should of just split it into to volumes.

Also think it is a good point that the original intention was changed. Probably meant they had to craft the starts and ending of each book to the new publishing strategy. Like how Jackson had to mold and change the films to do the same.

 

[Vartha]

I bought the Walt Simonson Thor Omnibus like this. Love the look, hate trying to read it. Should of just split it into to volumes.

Also think it is a good point that the original intention was changed. Probably meant they had to craft the starts and ending of each book to the new publishing strategy. Like how Jackson had to mold and change the films to do the same.

Yeah I don't like the omnibus line either. basicsally unless they're given to me or they're very cheap I won't get them.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The original narrative is definitely divided into 6 books, although Tolkien intended it to be released as one volume and the publisher forced him to release it in three parts. The six part structure doesn't really come into play for the first two books, but it is very noticeable for the other four. In particular, the point of view character(s) changes with each book after the first two.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The original narrative is definitely divided into 6 books, although Tolkien intended it to be released as one volume and the publisher forced him to release it in three parts. The six part structure doesn't really come into play for the first two books, but it is very noticeable for the other four.

Yep. Imagine if Jackson had filmed the movies like that. That is why you have to get creative.

 

[Iceman]

I'm just grateful they didn't go with that 2 film strategy that was suggested. No idea how they would have managed that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm just grateful they didn't go with that 2 film strategy that was suggested. No idea how they would have managed that.

I would love to see the story outlines for that. Sounds impossible really.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Yep. Imagine if Jackson had filmed the movies like that. That is why you have to get creative.

That type of narrative structure wouldn't work on film. Plus, the timeline gets wonky. For example, Book 4 takes place over a longer period of time and overlaps with both Book 3 and Book 5. The entire climax of Book 4 takes place at roughly the same time as the climax of Book 5.

 

[CoolCadaver49]

Aragorn hold a position no different then Thorin's in the new series. He is one of the leads.

Yes, he is one of the leads, and he was treated as one of the leads.

Personally, would get rid of most of the ending, while including a lot of what was cut from theatrical release for Aragorn. It isn't perfect, but it is a lot better.

Don't agree at all, but okay.

Gandalf's story has so much potential, but I feel like it suffers do to a lack of focus. You have all this build up to this great battle. It was him vs. the Witch-king in the battle of mystical generals, but it doesn't really happen. Instead we have Gandalf running around sword fighting, not truly leading or making any real impact over the warriors of Gondor.

I don't think I got that vibe as much as you did, so I wasn't as disappointed. I still got it a little bit, but just not as much, I think.

A similar type of battle takes place in Kingdom of Heaven and it is done so much better in terms of how it is structured, the strategy and the role of the leaders. GoT did it better on television with Blackwater. You understand the impact of strategy and leadership.

Ah... You reminded me of the Battle of the Blackwater!! This is super off topic, but did they announce when they are releasing the second season on DVD? I'm a fan of the books, and I can't wait...

There are just so many things at the writing stage I think would of helped. Less emphasis of the weeping and finale after finale. It isn't simply that there so many endings, but how pretty much from the moment Aragorn arrives every scene after is played like the end. Aragorn at the gates, Sam carrying Frodo, the ring falling into Mount Doom, Frodo "dies" fade to black, then come back in and have the Eagles save him, then fade again, then the bed scene, the bowing scene, so on and so forth. Everyone feels like it is in slow-motion and played out until it just doesn't matter anymore.

Hm... You put it that way, and I'm not sure why it doesn't bother me. I understand what you don't like about the film much better though.

Even if they included it, they shot it all wrong and it gave the wrong message. They were really hell bent on making Gandalf look like an old man all of sudden.

I 100% agree. I have no idea how this happened. Most mishandled scene in the trilogy imo.

 

[Iceman]

I would love to see the story outlines for that. Sounds impossible really.

Yeah it would be interesting to see their plans. Helm's Deep for eg would have been mostly cut I think. It's one of those situations where as desperate as I was to see a LOTR film, I would rather it not be done than crammed in like that & not done justice. In the end PJ did 3 3 hour epics with extended editions adding a hell of a lot more. The extended editions are the one that capture the richness of the world that other fantasy films can't emulate & I can't see how they can achieve that in 4-6 hours with all the plot they have to get through.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Whoever said the other day that the CGI really is unfinished in ROTK wasn't joking. I always remember it looking below par, but watching it right now I am amazed at how unfinished much of it looks. I guess the size and scope didn't allow for much time.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think the easiest way to make it two films would be to cut out the Rohan completely. That saves a lot of time and the story can still work without them. Then cut out Faramir and it shortens Frodo's journey considerably as well. Basically 90% of The Two Towers (movie version) can end up being cut and the bulk of the main story could still work.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think the easiest way to make it two films would be to cut out the Rohan completely. That saves a lot of time and the story can still work without them. Then cut out Faramir and it shortens Frodo's journey considerably as well. Basically 90% of The Two Towers (movie version) can end up being cut and the bulk of the main story could still work.

I don't want to see that movie.

As I type this, House of the Healing. Eowyn is beauty personified. Aragorn is an idiot.

 

[Vartha]

I don't want to see that movie.

As I type this, House of the Healing. Eowyn is beauty personified. Aragorn is an idiot.

Hehe I still like where his heart is.

 

[CoolCadaver49]

I don't want to see that movie.

I don't either, Rohan is the best
.

As I type this, House of the Healing. Eowyn is beauty personified. Aragorn is an idiot.

I wouldn't say that she's "beauty personified", but she certainly has more character appeal than Arwen. But what are they (the filmmakers) gonna do, that's who he picked in the books.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Eowyn was great but in that Betty Brant sort of way. Arwen, to me, is who Aragorn was in love(he really liked Eowyn) with and meant to be with. Like Mary-Jane to Peter Parker.

I'm happy that Eowyn did eventually find someone for her in the movie, though.

 

[regwec]

Eowyn just wanted to jump the first thing in hose and doublet.

 

[Iceman]

I wasn't all that impressed with Eowyn.

I think the easiest way to make it two films would be to cut out the Rohan completely. That saves a lot of time and the story can still work without them. Then cut out Faramir and it shortens Frodo's journey considerably as well. Basically 90% of The Two Towers (movie version) can end up being cut and the bulk of the main story could still work.

Two Towers would definitely see some savage cuts, far more than the other 2. Fellowship would probably retain the most.

 

[jf300]

Arwen is amazing - the scene in Two Towers when Aragorn dreams of her is up there with my favourite scenes of the trilogy. Beautiful acting, cinematography, artwork, score.