Person Of Interest - Part 3

[Batmannerism]

BTW, one of the biggest and dumbest mistakes in the show is bringing back Shaw, they should have stuck with that heroic act in "If-Then-Else", they did an amazing scene with a top music from Ramin Djawadi, it was a perfect ending for a character.
BUT, just in the next episode, they made the team search for her.
And then they made us know she's alive.

They ruined the perfect ending of the episode 11.

I agree with you. That would have been a perfect ending for the character - and would have provided an even stronger motivation for the team (especially Root) to destroy Samaritan.

Shaw was a great character, and that kind of sacrifice would have been an amazing way for her to go out.

Speaking of deaths, I'm not 100% sure about Greer's death. It seemed kind of a needless sacrifice, when he could have just put a bullet in Finch's head.

I was hoping that Samaritan would eventually decide that Greer needed to be eliminated, and Greer would then agree and allow himself to be killed - sure the sacrifice made sense on some levels, but wasn't all that satisfying.

I've already mentioned Root and Elias' deaths, ugh ! Hey, and what happened to Control (Camryn Manheim) she was such a good villain, they really needed to end her story properly.

There were, of course, some very good deaths ( seasons 1-3).
Carter had a good death, similarly Mark Snow had a great death - although I was kind of hoping that Kara Stanton had escaped the bomb and we'd see her again (besides flashbacks, although she was terrific in those) but the best has to be Simmons, because his death works on every level.

On that note, there were a bunch of recurring characters I wish had made more appearances in particular 3 come to mind:

Zoe Morgan, simply great in every appearance - I felt that Harper Rose was a poor replacement.

Leon Tao, hilarious, much needed comic relief.

Hersh, one of the great henchmen of the show


There were also plenty of one-off POIs who would have been good in a second appearance (as they did with Logan Pierce and Joey in the second-last episode).

 

[Snow Queen]

If-Then-Else is a brilliant episode, but would have been a bad place to have left Shaw, I'm glad they didn't pull that. Lose some of the best material of season 5, Sarah Shahi's best performance of the series, character dynamics and arcs wouldn't have evolved in the ways they did and just all around would have been a cliche and cheap way to go. Where they left her in the end was the right place for her character.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Hey, and what happened to Control

Spoiler

 

[Batmannerism]

Spoiler

Yeah. I know that Greer and co take her away, but as a secondary antagonist for the season, I feel like she deserved better.

 

[Batmannerism]

If-Then-Else is a brilliant episode, but would have been a bad place to have left Shaw, I'm glad they didn't pull that. Lose some of the best material of season 5, Sarah Shahi's best performance of the series, character dynamics and arcs wouldn't have evolved in the ways they did and just all around would have been a cliche and cheap way to go. Where they left her in the end was the right place for her character.

Respectfully disagree - although I never really got the hype about Shaw, she was a good character, but I never found her that interesting. I enjoyed her first appearance immensely and that they integrated her into the team slowly, but actually found her character development in season 4 kind of pointless (although the make-up counter stuff was funny).

Okay, just thought of the worst death (well, okay, how about the most disappointing death) of the series.....Martine. After being built up as a serious secondary antagonist/evil hench-person, she gets her neck broken (in a way that wouldn't actually break anyone's neck, ask my sister, she's a chiropractor and does that to people every day) it just didn't feel right to me. I feel like she deserved a climactic shoot-out or to perish in an explosion, something dramatic - Kara Stanton got a much, much more satisfying death IMO.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Shaw was a great character

I never really got the hype about Shaw, she was a good character, but I never found her that interesting.

 

[Batmannerism]

Lol ! Yes, I have totally contradicted myself there, nicely spotted. Allow me to remove my foot from my mouth.

I guess I enjoyed Shaw as a character but felt that a lot of reviewers overly hyped her impact on the show. Was she a good character or a great one ? Guess I'm not really sure (unlike Finch and Reese, who were simply great, no doubt about it). She certainly did have some great moments though.

My favorite Shaw moment was when she saved Fusco's son, and then phone conversation that followed - kind of wish they'd spent more time developing the friendship between Fusco and Shaw.

I didn't enjoy the episodes in which Shaw has to go into hiding - and ends up handcuffed to a bench, I mean WTF ? That didn't work for me.

Cheers. And Merry Xmas all !

 

[Snow Queen]

Lol ! Yes, I have totally contradicted myself there, nicely spotted. Allow me to remove my foot from my mouth.

I guess I enjoyed Shaw as a character but felt that a lot of reviewers overly hyped her impact on the show. Was she a good character or a great one ? Guess I'm not really sure (unlike Finch and Reese, who were simply great, no doubt about it). She certainly did have some great moments though.

My favorite Shaw moment was when she saved Fusco's son, and then phone conversation that followed - kind of wish they'd spent more time developing the friendship between Fusco and Shaw.

I didn't enjoy the episodes in which Shaw has to go into hiding - and ends up handcuffed to a bench, I mean WTF ? That didn't work for me.

Cheers. And Merry Xmas all !

You mean the one episode...? That she's handcuffed to a bench in for a single scene...?

 

[Batmannerism]

You mean the one episode...? That she's handcuffed to a bench in for a single scene...?

Yes, since you asked season 4 episode 9 "The Devil you Know", and season 4 episode 10 " The Cold War" in which Finch goes out to get Shaw:

"Pastrami... extra mustard, spicy and yellow, and enough pepperoncinis to create digestion issues in even the strongest constitution."

Those ones.

If-Then-Else is a brilliant episode, but would have been a bad place to have left Shaw, I'm glad they didn't pull that. Lose some of the best material of season 5, Sarah Shahi's best performance of the series, character dynamics and arcs wouldn't have evolved in the ways they did and just all around would have been a cliche and cheap way to go. Where they left her in the end was the right place for her character.

You state that as if it's a fact - and let's face it, like everything else on this forum it's an opinion - in this case yours, which I respect.

However, I respectfully disagree - it would have been a great death for Shaw, and in my opinion more meaningful than anything she did afterwards (in the same way that Carter's death was a brilliant ending for her character). In the same way I think it would have made more sense for Shaw to die in the finale than Reese (or for none of the protagonists to die, including Shaw and Root).

Luckily this forum is big enough for us to disagree. Merry Xmas.

 

[Snow Queen]

Yes, since you asked season 4 episode 9 "The Devil you Know", and season 4 episode 10 " The Cold War" in which Finch goes out to get Shaw:

"Pastrami... extra mustard, spicy and yellow, and enough pepperoncinis to create digestion issues in even the strongest constitution."

Those ones.



You state that as if it's a fact - and let's face it, like everything else on this forum it's an opinion - in this case yours, which I respect.

However, I respectfully disagree - it would have been a great death for Shaw, and in my opinion more meaningful than anything she did afterwards (in the same way that Carter's death was a brilliant ending for her character). In the same way I think it would have made more sense for Shaw to die in the finale than Reese (or for none of the protagonists to die, including Shaw and Root).

Luckily this forum is big enough for us to disagree. Merry Xmas.

So what's your problem with it exactly? What's so "WTF" about it?

Of course it's my opinion, I don't think I need to add "IMO" to the end of everything to make it clear that if I'm making a post with an opinion, it's my opinion. Reese's arc came to a close, his story was over. Carter's arc came to a close as well, with where she was with Reese and the fact her story was tied to HR, which she brought down. Shaw's hadn't by If-Then-Else. It would have been an abrupt cut off of her story instead of a natural end point that we got. Her arc's subtler, but it's definitely present. Season 5, we finally get to dig into what exactly she feels as Samaritan breaks her down and spits her back out the other side. Cutting that off leaves her character journey unresolved.

 

[Batmannerism]

So what's your problem with it exactly? What's so "WTF" about it?

Of course it's my opinion, I don't think I need to add "IMO" to the end of everything to make it clear that if I'm making a post with an opinion, it's my opinion. Reese's arc came to a close. Carter's arc came to a close as well, with where she was with Reese and the fact her story was tied to HR, which she brought down. Shaw's hadn't by If-Then-Else. It would have been an abrupt cut off of her story instead of a natural end point that we got. Her arc's subtler, but it's definitely present. Season 5 we finally get to dig into what exactly she feels as Samaritan breaks her down and spits her back out the other side.

Sometimes something just strikes me as dumb (e.g. flying around the world really fast to turn back time ). Do I need to analyze that and determine why I think it's dumb ? Well, if it were something to do with real life, maybe.
For example, the "three strikes law" that my country has adopted is worthy of some analysis, as is the proliferation of Charter Schools and recent changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000 which have removed the 30 day rule, (i.e. the rule which extends the benefits of a collective agreement to new employees, for the first 30 days of their employment). These are worth really having a good think about. But, just like Person of Interest, Superman the Movie is merely entertainment, and is only worthy of so much time and thought.

However, since you asked, Finch handcuffing Shaw to a bench strikes me as dumb - as Shaw is a character who would clearly react very poorly to any kind of constraint or confinement. Drugging her in the first place was equally dumb.

Shaw would never have sat still, and instead would have probably gone on the offensive. Perhaps they could have exploited that and lured Martine and Samaritan operatives into a trap ? Who knows ? And really, given that it's Christmas, and I need to help out with lunch, I'm not really willing to put much more thought into it than that at this moment.

Otherwise. I will reiterate that I respectfully disagree with you about Shaw's character arc. I don't need you to explain why you feel Shaw's character arc needed to continue past If-then-else, I just accept your view as it is and leave it at that. Once again, Merry Xmas.

 

[Snow Queen]

Sometimes something just strikes me as dumb (e.g. flying around the world really fast to turn back time ). Do I need to analyze that and determine why I think it's dumb ? Well, if it were something to do with real life, maybe.
For example, the "three strikes law" that my country has adopted is worthy of some analysis, as is the proliferation of Charter Schools and recent changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000 which have removed the 30 day rule, (i.e. the rule which extends the benefits of a collective agreement to new employees, for the first 30 days of their employment). These are worth really having a good think about. But, just like Person of Interest, Superman the Movie is merely entertainment, and is only worthy of so much time and thought.

However, since you asked, Finch handcuffing Shaw to a bench strikes me as dumb - as Shaw is a character who would clearly react very poorly to any kind of constraint or confinement. Drugging her in the first place was equally dumb.

Shaw would never have sat still, and instead would have probably gone on the offensive. Perhaps they could have exploited that and lured Martine and Samaritan operatives into a trap ? Who knows ? And really, given that it's Christmas, and I need to help out with lunch, I'm not really willing to put much more thought into it than that at this moment.

Otherwise. I will reiterate that I respectfully disagree with you about Shaw's character arc. I don't need you to explain why you feel Shaw's character arc needed to continue past If-then-else, I just accept your view as it is and leave it at that. Once again, Merry Xmas.

The point is she's going to react poorly to her new situation. She was acting unreasonable and they needed to get her to sit still long enough to talk sense into her, which only holds up a short while as she takes off once everything really goes wrong.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Sometimes something just strikes me as dumb (e.g. flying around the world really fast to turn back time ). Do I need to analyze that and determine why I think it's dumb ? Well, if it were something to do with real life, maybe.
For example, the "three strikes law" that my country has adopted is worthy of some analysis, as is the proliferation of Charter Schools and recent changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000 which have removed the 30 day rule, (i.e. the rule which extends the benefits of a collective agreement to new employees, for the first 30 days of their employment). These are worth really having a good think about. But, just like Person of Interest, Superman the Movie is merely entertainment, and is only worthy of so much time and thought.

However, since you asked, Finch handcuffing Shaw to a bench strikes me as dumb - as Shaw is a character who would clearly react very poorly to any kind of constraint or confinement. Drugging her in the first place was equally dumb.

Shaw would never have sat still, and instead would have probably gone on the offensive. Perhaps they could have exploited that and lured Martine and Samaritan operatives into a trap ? Who knows ? And really, given that it's Christmas, and I need to help out with lunch, I'm not really willing to put much more thought into it than that at this moment.

Otherwise. I will reiterate that I respectfully disagree with you about Shaw's character arc. I don't need you to explain why you feel Shaw's character arc needed to continue past If-then-else, I just accept your view as it is and leave it at that. Once again, Merry Xmas.

She asked you a legit question about POI in a POI thread. You don't have to be condescending about it.

 

[Batmannerism]

She asked you legit question about POI in a POI thread. You don't have to be condescending about it.

I've been told I can come off as condescending, even when I don't intend to be.
As such, that reply wasn't intended as condescending, she demanded an explanation and I provided one - which is that it just struck me as dumb - and also why I added the "Merry Xmas." (and I am actually leaving to help with lunch, it's Christmas day down here). Oh, and on that note, Merry Xmas to you too.


p.s. I'm not being facetious about the 3 strikes law, Charter Schools or the changes to the Employment Relations Act 2000, all of which are a big deal and really worthy of serious consideration as they are going to affect pretty much all New Zealanders in some way, I brought those up for comparison's sake.

 

[Batmannerism]

The point is she's going to react poorly to her new situation. She was acting unreasonable and they needed to get her to sit still long enough to talk sense into her, which only holds up a short while as she takes off once everything really goes wrong.

Merry Christmas.

Merry Xmas !

 

[Man in the Suit]

THE TRINITY

 

[Webfoot Hero]

If-Then-Else was never intended to be an end for Shaw since it was basically a rewrite to accomodate Shahi's unplanned pregnancy. Nolan and Plageman have said they had a completely different plan for Shaw and the entire show in S4 before finding out about her pregnancy a few months before filming started.

 

[jihado86]

@Batmannerism

All the negative opinions you mentioned in season 4 and 5 are some of the reasons I find these two seasons a disappointment. I think Nolan being focusing on Westworld made him "somehow" neglect POI, I feel like after season 3 he and his team didn't take the show seriously anymore. They didn't put enough effort and dedication to it.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Even if Nolan took a step back to focus on Westworld, Denise The, Greg Plageman, Lucas O'Connor, Amanda Segel, and Erik Mountain were very dedicated... Let's take a look at some of the great episodes:

Season 4
Panopticon
Prophets
The Devil You Know
The Cold War
If-Then-Else
Control-Alt-Delete
MIA
Search and Destroy
Terra Incognita
Asylum
YHWH

Season 5
BSOD
SNAFU
6,741
QSO
Sotto Voce
The Day the World Went Away
.exe
return 0

 

[Batmannerism]

Even if Nolan took a step back to focus on Westworld, Denise The, Greg Plageman, Lucas O'Connor, Amanda Segel, and Erik Mountain were very dedicated... Let's take a look at some of the great episodes:

Season 4
Panopticon
Prophets
The Devil You Know
The Cold War
If-Then-Else
Control-Alt-Delete
MIA
Search and Destroy
Terra Incognita
Asylum
YHWH

Season 5
BSOD
SNAFU
6,741
QSO
Sotto Voce
The Day the World Went Away
.exe
return 0

Okay, this is my opinion, but my list of great episodes goes like this. Unsurprisingly they're a bit different lists from yours. I didn't enjoy that much of season 4, and while Season 5 had some real bangs, I didn't care much for the ending.


Season 4:

Nautilus - loved the idea of a Samaritan recruitment drive

Brotherhood - where Reese and Fusco protect those kids (really recaptured what made the show great in season 1 and 2).

Pretenders - IMO best episode of the season, funny, action packed and with 2 brilliantly written stories side-by-side.

The Devil you Know - a great episode which really showcased what has made Elias such a compelling character throughout the show (but they never really followed it up effectively).

The Cold War - a good episode (we agree on that) for Greer's backstory although as I've mentioned before the restraining of Shaw didn't work for me.

If-Then-Else - the multiple scenarios were terrific (sort of a super "sliding doors" episode). Again, I thought it would have been a great ending for Shaw, but that's just me and one other person. Still, a great episode.

I struggled with Terra Incognita, as it was great to see Carter again - but John seems to have really lost his edge.

YHWH - some great moments, in terms of Finch communicating with the machine directly, but really did we need to go through 4 seasons to get to this point. I guess my issue is that I feel like the whole Samaritan storyline was only worth 1 season at most, and this episode should have been a mid-season finale rather than a season finale.



Season 5:

6,471 While I'm not as big a Shaw fan as everyone else posting on this thread, she really shone in this one (and while I think she should have died in If then else, I have to admit that this was a damn good follow up).

Sotto Voce : loved the Elias/Finch as a kind of weird Holmes Watson team, and of course the "Die Hard" aspect of the police station hold out.

Syncdoche - hey, it was neat to see that the machine had another team something I always hoped the writers would explore - but then where were they when the **** went down in the final episode ?

As for the finale, there were some good Reese/Finch moments (and I liked the Vonnegut reference, Ice-9). Still don't think that John needed to die, what was the point of developing a love interest or all that character growth ?
I mean, he was prepared to sacrifice himself for Harold, from quite early on in season 1 - so he didn't need to prove it here.

All in all, I felt season 4 had some good episodes and great moments, but season 5 was sort of a rushed mishmash.

Guess it works for some folks, but didn't work for me.

All the negative opinions you mentioned in season 4 and 5 are some of the reasons I find these two seasons a disappointment. I think Nolan being focusing on Westworld made him "somehow" neglect POI, I feel like after season 3 he and his team didn't take the show seriously anymore. They didn't put enough effort and dedication to it.

I suspect that Nolan's absence contributed to changes in the show. Certainly when I look at the writing credits over the course of POI, my favorite episodes were all written by Jonah Nolan (in particular the "Devil's Share" ) it was Nolan who introduced Shaw in "Relevance" and you can certainly see a trend of his diminishing involvement as the show went on.

I honestly don't know if it was a question of the team not taking the show seriously - but perhaps they had a different vision for it, compared to its creator. I feel like they wanted to explore other ideas, and moved away from the core concept that Nolan established (and which made the show compelling from episode 1).

In a similar way, I loved the first 5 seasons of Supernatural (which were under the creator, Eric Kripke) but after that feel the show has been entertaining but lost a compelling overall direction (compared to the Apocalypse in season 5, but I guess after you avert the Apocalypse its hard to go anywhere else ). But that's just me, plenty of folks love the show, long it enough to keep it going 7 seasons after Kripke's departure.


Cheers.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Nolan was always involved in breaking stories and probably did uncredited rewrites. He just didn't personally write episodes because he was busy writing half of Westworld season 1. Seasons 4 and 5 were always the plan and his vision, along with Plageman and The's. Nolan's all about these huge sci fi ideas in the last 2.5 seasons, more than the procedural elements. You can see the same concepts pop up in Westworld. The concept of an ASI and her acolytes was always the idea he wanted to explore in POI.

 

[jihado86]

I honestly don't know if it was a question of the team not taking the show seriously - but perhaps they had a different vision for it, compared to its creator. I feel like they wanted to explore other ideas, and moved away from the core concept that Nolan established (and which made the show compelling from episode 1).

Cheers.

seems logical, a different vision. I even think Nolan was more involved in the episodes that were focused on Samaritan, and let the other writers/directors do whatever they want in the other episodes. But even in the Samaritain story arc it's obvious he did write the concept and didn't dedicate his full concentration to the details. In the first 3 seasons the show was his baby, you can see how everything was moving as a flawless machine, attention to every little detail.

Regarding the good episodes of season 4 and 5, I agree with both of you in most of the choices, BUT, in all these episodes you two mentioned, there are only two or three that were amazingly executed and quasi-flawless like the old days of seasons 1,2,3.

If-Then-Else, was pure perfection.
Control-Alt-Delete was also solid, entertaining and well crafted. It really felt like watching season 2, for example. I love it when they show the relevant numbers team.
Terra Incognita, was a great emotional drama, written and directed professionally.

The other episodes, you mentioned, had their moments but they suffered too much from the flaws we talked about in previous posts, you feel there is a great essence but the execution is average and sometimes sloppy.


All in all, I'm still sad for what happened to the show after season 3. This show is my all time favorite, it's the only one with Lost that I got really attached to its world, emotionally and intellectually. I still listen to the soundtracks on a daily basis, I feel nostalgic even if the show is still new. That's why I feel really, painfully disappointed by season 4 and 5.

 

[Batmannerism]

seems logical, a different vision. I even think Nolan was more involved in the episodes that were focused on Samaritan, and let the other writers/directors do whatever they want in the other episodes. But even in the Samaritain story arc it's obvious he did write the concept and didn't dedicate his full concentration to the details. In the first 3 seasons the show was his baby, you can see how everything was moving as a flawless machine, attention to every little detail.

Regarding the good episodes of season 4 and 5, I agree with both of you in most of the choices, BUT, in all these episodes you two mentioned, there are only two or three that were amazingly executed and quasi-flawless like the old days of seasons 1,2,3.

If-Then-Else, was pure perfection.
Control-Alt-Delete was also solid, entertaining and well crafted. It really felt like watching season 2, for example. I love it when they show the relevant numbers team.
Terra Incognita, was a great emotional drama, written and directed professionally.

The other episodes, you mentioned, had their moments but they suffered too much from the flaws we talked about in previous posts, you feel there is a great essence but the execution is average and sometimes sloppy.


All in all, I'm still sad for what happened to the show after season 3. This show is my all time favorite, it's the only one with Lost that I got really attached to its world, emotionally and intellectually. I still listen to the soundtracks on a daily basis, I feel nostalgic even if the show is still new. That's why I feel really, painfully disappointed by season 4 and 5.

Well, that's entertainment for you - on a similar note Batman and Superman are my favorite supeheroes, so 2016 was a very disappointing year.

However, whether you liked season 4 and 5 or not, I still think its possible to simply enjoy seasons 1-3. Personally, I usually watch season 3 up to "4C" which is the extended ending of the story arc involving Carter's death (as John Returns to the team). To me, the show could have ended there and it all would have been okay.

And nothing, nothing, can detract from the brilliance of the the top episodes.

If I had to list a top 5 best ever POI episodes they would be (and this is bloody hard as I consider season 1 to be pretty much magic, without any filler).

1. Pilot (season 1) best pilot ever (although Hawaii Five 0 was pretty kick-ass too) the show hits the ground running and we are instantly enthralled by these two unlikely allies.

2. The Devil's Share (season 3) John goes on a rampage, Root does a John Woo two-gun stunt, Fusco beats the crap out of Simmons, Elias balances the scales, nuff said !

2. Ghosts - (season 1 episode 2) what an incredible follow up from the pilot (great guest appearance by Richie Coster) terrific Reese and Finch moments.

3. The Crossing (season 3) probably makes it for Fusco Strangling Petersen, the most intense Fusco moment of the series - everyone shines in this one, and the pursuit across the city is as suspenseful as the series gets IMO.

4. Dead Reckoning ( season 2) the return (and demise) of Kara Stanton and Mark Snow.

Honourable mention:

• Relevance (season 2) introduction of Shaw and I loved how the episode was shown from her POV.
  
• 4C (season 3) Just for its blend of action and comedic elements.
  
• Lethe and Alethia (season 3) the two-parter, I'm a big fan of Saul Rubinek (who guest starred as Artie) and of course we get to see Finch's backstory.
  
• RAM (season 3) fascinating to see Finch (before Reese) and of course great seeing Kara and John in action.
  

What are other people's top 5 episodes ? It was damn hard not to have a top 10, but I feel like 5 makes one really focus on those episodes that really stood out. Tough choices people.

 

[jihado86]

It's hard to only limit my top best episodes of POI just to 5. Especially for the first 3 seasons, where I have already more than 5 favorites per season

Damn, I need to re-watch POI !

 

[Snow Queen]

1. S5E4 6,741
2. S4E11 If-Then-Else
3. S5E13 return 0
4. S4E22 YHWH
5. S3E23 Deus Ex Machina
And to cheat a bit...
6. S4E21 Asylum
7. S5E1 B.S.O.D.
8. S5E10 The Day The World Went Away
9. S4E5 Prophets
10. S3E17 /

Could do a hell of a lot more than that but I'll leave it at 10.