Secrets Of The Amazon: The Wonder Woman SPOILER Thread - Part 1

[Flemm]

I enjoyed the movie's 3rd act a lot more when I went back to see it again. Most of the movie I loved right away, but I had mixed feelings about certain aspects of the finale.

There are actually a ton of plot points and character beats crammed into the 3rd act, so digesting the film as a whole really helps smooth things out.

I still might quibble with certain moments visually, and Ares has a few lines that are generic villain-speak. But on the whole I think the 3rd act is a lot better than I originally gave it credit for. It has a lot of emotional and thematic depth.

If anything, I think they could have trusted that aspect of things a bit more and toned down on the visual noise.

Part of me wonders if the re-shoots for the film were meant to beef up the "blockbuster action" aspect of the finale. If so, I'm not even sure it was necessary.

But anyway. It's a very good movie, that I think gets better on repeat viewings.

 

[dhandler01]

Whats interesting is I enjoyed it less the second time but more the third. In the second I was probably looking for the little things people complained about or something. The third time I definitely enjoyed the 3rd act more than the other 2 times.

 

[Thome216]

A lot complain about the CG heavy action at the end, and I think that may have off-put some and made others miss the heavy emotional context at play. Plus it's all crammed into the last fifteen minutes of the movie and it is a lot to take in, so seeing it again definitely helps.

I've seen it more than a couple of times now, and I only appreciate it more each time!

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I ****ing loved this part. I was giddy with excitement.

I want it as my screen saver. I remember seeing that in the trailer and thinking "holy crap, epic! "

LOL the fire in that MOS sequence was real mixed with CG. Henry Cavill was very close to an accident too I heard.

If you say so I won't say it isn't true. But I do see the similar flame effects that were mentioned.
I still would trade in MoS and keep WW.

 

[dhandler01]

A lot complain about the CG heavy action at the end, and I think that may have off-put some and made others miss the heavy emotional context at play. Plus it's all crammed into the last fifteen minutes of the movie and it is a lot to take in, so seeing it again definitely helps.

I've seen it more than a couple of times now, and I only appreciate it more each time!

Well it is a bit jarring since the rest of the movie has way less overall cgi. When the Gods fight it looks completely different than anything else.

Now that doesnt bother me much (though as I have said they could have dialed it back a bit and lost nothing) and I even grew to really appreciate it the last time I saw it. When she goes "God Mode" on the soldiers with rage (especially when she explodes up in anger much to Ares' delight) the effect and style kind of resembles the aesthetic of the origin of the Amazons. Even the slo mo matches it a bit. (or appeared too) I am not sure if Patty meant it to be that way but once I had that in my head it made everything work better in my mind.

 

[Flemm]

The way Diana smites Ares at the end definitely calls back to the way Zeus blasts Ares with a thunderbolt in the animated "backstory" section, early in the film.

But you're probably right that there are some other visual links between those sequences.

 

[Greenlite]

I was too but some of Ares' dialogue in that sequence felt pretty meh to me. Very generic. Through out the movie I thought dialogue was a bit hit and miss.

"Oh my child, you have SO much to learn~" *sexy British accent

 

[Thome216]

The way Diana smites Ares at the end definitely calls back to the way Zeus blasts Ares with a thunderbolt in the animated "backstory" section, early in the film.

But you're probably right that there are some other visual links between those sequences.

Just as Diana reaches the height of her jump and crosses her arms, I can just imagine Ares thinking...

[YT]DHbT6BjFvcA[/YT]

 

[Dark Raven]

This is an interesting article about the No Man's Land scene.

The Wonder Woman “No Man’s Land” Scene Is Rooted In History, Myth and Art

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...cene-is-rooted-in_us_59498fcae4b0710bea889a18

 

[2kt09]

But it's not, because your statement would assume then she doesn't have one, but she does. Which is why it isn't a case of "If she has nothing to prove then where's the character arc? Answer (which doesn't need to be spelled out): there is none" because she clearly does have an arc. And Patty Jenkins even addressed this about her having that quiet confidence of not having to prove herself. She doesn't need to act tough or show how much of a warrior she is. It's just something she is, so she's free to act in a more loving way and show kindness and compassion, which is all part of her character.

Go on.
Since I saw mostly Monaghan's portrayal in Gal's WW.

 

[Dark Raven]

Go on.
Since I saw mostly Monaghan's portrayal in Gal's WW.

How was Gal anything like Monaghan?

The JL War WW was far more militaristic and not far different from Keri Russell.

Even in one small example, there was a huge difference between how Gal played the ice cream scene compared to how Monaghan portrayed in Justice League: War where WW was much more aggressive. Gal's portrayal was far more gentle and endearing with absolutely no threat to the ice cream seller, unlike Monaghan where she awkwardly demanded an ice cream and even pointed a sword at him.

Russell and Monaghan's WW was more like the typical cliched trope of having some medieval warrior or figure out of time (I'm not sure what that trope is called exactly) where you'd get them thinking all modern people are scoundrels and rogues and they'd be chasing innocent people down with swords shouting "have at thee knave!" and attacking people who aren't even threatening but just that the person out of time misunderstood these actions.

I feel like I'm repeating myself though, because everyone has been discussing for weeks now since the beginning of June how endearing and gentle and approachable Gal's WW is, in sharp contrast to the typical hardened warrior who looks down on men that it feels we're going round in circles.

Would you have preferred someone like Jaimie Alexander or even Ronda Rousey or Gina Carano to play WW? They would've been more in line with the type of WW you seem to like? Even Adrianne Palicki's WW is more like that too.

I think Jaimie Alexander would've been very similar to Keri Russell, which is probably why John Campea wanted her so much.


Incidentally, John Campea looks like Drax the movie Destroyer:

Spoiler

^ Not a spoiler but hidden so we don't have to see his ugly mug all the time.

 

[2kt09]

How was Gal anything like Monaghan?

The JL War WW was far more militaristic and not far different from Keri Russell.

Even in one small example, there was a huge difference between how Gal played the ice cream scene compared to how Monaghan portrayed in Justice League: War where WW was much more aggressive. Gal's portrayal was far more gentle and endearing with absolutely no threat to the ice cream seller, unlike Monaghan where she awkwardly demanded an ice cream and even pointed a sword at him.

Russell and Monaghan's WW was more like the typical cliched trope of having some medieval warrior or figure out of time (I'm not sure what that trope is called exactly) where you'd get them thinking all modern people are scoundrels and rogues and they'd be chasing innocent people down with swords shouting "have at thee knave!" and attacking people who aren't even threatening but just that the person out of time misunderstood these actions.

I feel like I'm repeating myself though, because everyone has been discussing for weeks now since the beginning of June how endearing and gentle and approachable Gal's WW is, in sharp contrast to the typical hardened warrior who looks down on men that it feels we're going round in circles.

Would you have preferred someone like Jaimie Alexander or even Ronda Rousey or Gina Carano to play WW? They would've been more in line with the type of WW you seem to like? Even Adrianne Palicki's WW is more like that too.

I think Jaimie Alexander would've been very similar to Keri Russell, which is probably why John Campea wanted her so much.


Incidentally, John Campea looks like Drax the movie Destroyer:

Spoiler

^ Not a spoiler but hidden so we don't have to see his ugly mug all the time.

The kicker is Campea doesn't even like the animated DC movies (pre or post-New 52-lite).

When I said Russel's is more mature, I mean hers comes across more like an adult.
She has those quirks of wonderment/compassion without having to be so blatant.
[YT]PxxXdR6gHqo[/YT]

Monaghan's much like a lot of the portrayals in JL War border on caricatures and that's fine for what the movie was going for.
[YT]wAemkNPY7xQ[/YT]

With that in mind, she's as "child-like" as Gal's disney princess, which I stated before don't mind for an origin movie.
[YT]Z8S9Jr-GGCY[/YT]

A different actress wouldn't substantially change what's intended by the filmmakers.

 

[-Arya-]

I enjoyed the movie's 3rd act a lot more when I went back to see it again. Most of the movie I loved right away, but I had mixed feelings about certain aspects of the finale.

There are actually a ton of plot points and character beats crammed into the 3rd act, so digesting the film as a whole really helps smooth things out.

I still might quibble with certain moments visually, and Ares has a few lines that are generic villain-speak. But on the whole I think the 3rd act is a lot better than I originally gave it credit for. It has a lot of emotional and thematic depth.

If anything, I think they could have trusted that aspect of things a bit more and toned down on the visual noise.

Part of me wonders if the re-shoots for the film were meant to beef up the "blockbuster action" aspect of the finale. If so, I'm not even sure it was necessary.

But anyway. It's a very good movie, that I think gets better on repeat viewings.

I feel the same way

 

[Dark Raven]

The kicker is Campea doesn't even like the animated DC movies (pre or post-New 52-lite).

When I said Russel's is more mature, I mean hers comes across more like an adult.
She has those quirks of wonderment/compassion without having to be so blatant.
[YT]PxxXdR6gHqo[/YT]

Monaghan's much like a lot of the portrayals in JL War border on caricatures and that's fine for what the movie was going for.
[YT]wAemkNPY7xQ[/YT]

With that in mind, she's as "child-like" as Gal's disney princess, which I stated before don't mind for an origin movie.
[YT]Z8S9Jr-GGCY[/YT]

A different actress wouldn't substantially change what's intended by the filmmakers.

I discussed that scene where Keri Russell's WW teaches the little girl how to fight in another thread. I said that Russell's WW came across as rather stiff and overly tough, and when she was with that child it wasn't a maternal warmth but more of a curiosity as to why there was an inequality and a slightly emotionless, logical approach, almost like how Spock might start talking about the more technical aspects of something if someone were in need of emotional comfort. Here WW starts telling the little girl that they don't know how to fight either, and then continues on about sword technique. She even sits too far apart from the girl instead of putting her arm around her.

If Gal portrayed that scene I think it would be extremely different. Much softer and warmer where she would speak kind and gentle words of reassurance and take her up in her arms and give her a hug. It would only be after she's comforted the girl that you might see a spark in her eyes and she might flash a smile and say "Hey you know what? I have an idea. Would you like me to teach you how to sword fight?" And it would be far less analytical and logical than the way Russell did it.

 

[2kt09]

I discussed that scene where Keri Russell's WW teaches the little girl how to fight in another thread. I said that Russell's WW came across as rather stiff and overly tough, and when she was with that child it wasn't a maternal warmth but more of a curiosity as to why there was an inequality and a slightly emotionless, logical approach, almost like how Spock might start talking about the more technical aspects of something if someone were in need of emotional comfort. Here WW starts telling the little girl that they don't know how to fight either, and then continues on about sword technique. She even sits too far apart from the girl instead of putting her arm around her.

If Gal portrayed that scene I think it would be extremely different. Much softer and warmer where she would speak kind and gentle words of reassurance and take her up in her arms and give her a hug. It would only be after she's comforted the girl that you might see a spark in her eyes and she might flash a smile and say "Hey you know what? I have an idea. Would you like me to teach you how to sword fight?" And it would be far less analytical and logical than the way Russell did it.

It's in the line delivery and the gazes that show the compassion; the emotion even after she admits never having seen children before. She cuts off that trail of thought upon hearing and seeing the girl on the bench. As you said, criticizing the boys who left her out is part of that comforting process.

Right, if Gal's Diana approached this that way, it'd be more saccharine.
A comparative example where that isn't the case: learning how to "sway" although the circumstances and the intention of the scene are different.
For me, it seemed like the movie dialed it up whenever it came to women and children.

 

[Dark Raven]

It's in the line delivery and the gazes that show the compassion; the emotion even after she admits never having seen children before. She cuts off that trail of thought upon hearing and seeing the girl on the bench. As you said, criticizing the boys who left her out is part of that comforting process.

Right, if Gal's Diana approached this that way, it'd be more saccharine.
A comparative example where that isn't the case: learning how to "sway" although the circumstances and the intention of the scene are different.
For me, it seemed like the movie dialed it up whenever it came to women and children.

Do you generally think that Spock sounds very compassionate when he logically analyses a situation and explains why feeling a particular way is irrational and illogical because of X or Y?

Because when men try to do that with women, I can tell you it doesn't go down well at all. And that's how Russell's WW is in that situation. You might think there's compassion underlying it, but that's not how women perceive it when you try to tell them something in a very cold and logical way, even if it is actually driven by compassion.

 

[2kt09]

Do you generally think that Spock sounds very compassionate when he logically analyses a situation and explains why feeling a particular way is irrational and illogical because of X or Y?

Because when men try to do that with women, I can tell you it doesn't go down well at all. And that's how Russell's WW is in that situation. You might think there's compassion underlying it, but that's not how women perceive it when you try to tell them something in a very cold and logical way, even if it is actually driven by compassion.

It's in the line delivery and the gazes that show the compassion; the emotion even after she admits never having seen children before. She cuts off that trail of thought upon hearing and seeing the girl on the bench. As you said, criticizing the boys who left her out is part of that comforting process.

Even in delivering her logic-driven advice, she showed her passion.
"Now go, unleash hell" in a calmer yet still motivational demeanor

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Just reading these discussions it seems like one of you prefer a more manly Wonder Woman and the other prefers a more feminine acting Wonder Woman.

 

[Thome216]

Maybe not feminine per se, but tender and compassionate, which men can also express. Which Steve expresses from time to time in the movie. I think it is the difference between being a hard-arse for the sake of being a strong, she-ra rather than simply being strong but not needing to bash people over the head with it by being rough at the edges.

 

[haephestus]

I enjoyed the movie's 3rd act a lot more when I went back to see it again. Most of the movie I loved right away, but I had mixed feelings about certain aspects of the finale.

...

But anyway. It's a very good movie, that I think gets better on repeat viewings.

I agree. I just saw it for a second time and Ares' motivations were a lot clearer on the second viewing, which made the third act / climax more enjoyable (although it still looks like Diana "throws" the tank in the wrong direction). Ares really is just a petulant child who ruined his daddy's creations and then turned against his own family. Now he's lonely and wants to start over again, and do things his way, with his only remaining family.

 

[Micromind]

I agree. I just saw it for a second time and Ares' motivations were a lot clearer on the second viewing, which made the third act / climax more enjoyable (although it still looks like Diana "throws" the tank in the wrong direction). Ares really is just a petulant child who ruined his daddy's creations and then turned against his own family. Now he's lonely and wants to start over again, and do things his way, with his only remaining family.

The third act is layered, the fight between Ares and Wonder Woman is on two fronts, one is a psychological / philosophical fight and other is the physical fight between the two.

Ares attempting to influence Diana on an emotional level is also a part of the fight, this is nothing new as we have seen similar fights between Luke and Darth Vader and many other heroes and villains like this but here, patty Jenkins manages to increase the stakes of the fight while keeping the viewer invested. The only negative (not for me but for some viewers) is that battle relies on Vfx work heavily and goes on for some time, maybe they should ave edited it better.

 

[Willi Berg]

The third act is layered, there is fight between Ares and Wonder Woman, on two fronts, one is a psychological and philosophical fight and other is a physical fight between the two.

Ares attempting to influence Diana on an emotional level is also a part of the fight, it's nothing new as we have seen similar fights between Luke and Darth Vader and many other heroes and villains like this but here, patty Jenkins manages to increase the stakes of the fight while keeping the viewer invested. The only negative (not for me but for some viewers) is that battle relies on Vfx work heavily and goes on for some time, maybe they should ave edited it better.

It was very "join the Dark Side!". The first time I saw it I did wonder how Diana could defeat Ares, when nothing seemed to be working. (Turning his powers back on him, of course! )

 

[Micromind]

It was very "join the Dark Side!". The first time I saw it I did wonder how Diana could defeat Ares, when nothing seemed to be working. (Turning his powers back on him, of course! )

Diana's powers just increased level by level (just like in video games) in the movie, by the time of final confrontation with Ares, I think her powers reached god level (where she floats after defeating Ares)

But I think her powers returned to "normal" level (whatever that normal is for WW) which means currently Diana is not at god level, it reaches that level only when she is fighting another god like entity.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Diana's powers just increased level by level (just like in video games) in the movie, by the time of final confrontation with Ares, I think her powers reached god level (where she floats after defeating Ares)

But I think her powers returned to "normal" level (whatever that normal is for WW) which means currently Diana is not at god level, it reaches that level only when she is fighting another god like entity.

In Superman v Batman Wonder Woman's powers were at god level. She warded off Doomsday's heat vision blast to save Batman, was beating the hell out of Doomsday, chopped his arm off, and was holding Doomsday
immobile with her lasso so Superman could shove the spear in. Is there anything to indicate that currently her powers aren't at god level.

 

[Thome216]

Yet that was all brute force action. Against Ares, Diana displayed a force-projection ability, keeping the 'missles' launched by Ares from reaching her and then stopping him cold mid-flight, all without physically touching him. She even repels him without touching him, which is again something she did not do against Doomsday.

The fight against Doomsday was done with sword, shield, lasso and bracers. Again, all in direct physical contact. So I would agree that she reached a 'God-mode' against Ares, but then settled back to her normal power levels after he wasn't there to boost them.