Secrets Of The Amazon: The Wonder Woman SPOILER Thread - Part 1

[misslane38]

Again, no, it is simply not factual.

All of the ideas you are presenting are your interpretations of a few different movies.

Being able to separate one's own interpretation from any sort of objective fact is bare minimum for this type of discussion to be productive at all.

It is factual.

If you can find the quote from the film in which Diana is called Wonder Woman, then you can say I'm wrong according to the facts. To the people in Diana's world, Wonder Woman does not exist. I am not implying, nor have I ever implied, that as a viewer, you cannot feel you got a definitive Wonder Woman moment where she felt like Wonder Woman to you. What I've said, and what IS A FACT, is that there is not a Wonder Woman in the world that Superman and Batman inhabit yet. The public in that world do not know who Wonder Woman is, because she does not exist. If you asked Diana, "Who is Wonder Woman?," we don't know how she'd answer.

Superman's inspirational effect, and my discussion of it, is about how the mechanics within the narrative work, not how they work outside the narrative. Your response and Jenkins' response are about how the audience reacts to that moment. It is the moment when Wonder Woman is created for the audience because it is iconic, public, and global. But the audience is not the same thing as the public that exists within the narrative of the DCEU thus far. Those people don't know her like we do.

They don't know Wonder Woman yet. That's a fact.

 

[terry78]

This is what Patty Jenkins says:

http://collider.com/patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-interview/




She also says this about her powers:


In the article she also talks about WW's age and her stance on killing.




I'm waiting to see if she can do that too - drawn down lightning on her own.






Interested to see how she acquires this new sword. In the BvS Tech Manual it says it is called the "Sword of Athena".

http://dcextendeduniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Athena

It just seems kinda inconsistent that she can shrug off giant energy blasts or explosions but still be wounded by a pistol. But whatever.

 

[Flemm]

Superman's inspirational effect, and my discussion of it, is about how the mechanics within the narrative work, not how they work outside the narrative.

You have developed an interpretation of the narrative, and part of that interpretation is a definition of the idea of superhero, which is something that you have subjectively come up with.

What you're arguing is that non-conformity with those ideas amounts to a mistake about something factual.

It simply does not. I do find your ideas interesting, but they are *your* ideas.

Not an objective canon with which the film-maker's ideas, or other people's interpretations, must conform.

 

[misslane38]

You have developed an interpretation of the narrative, and part of that interpretation is a definition of the idea of superhero, which is something that you have subjectively come up with.

What you're arguing is that non-conformity with those ideas amounts to a mistake about something factual.

It simply does not. I do find your ideas interesting, but they are *your* ideas.

Not an objective canon with which the film-maker's ideas, or other people's interpretations, must conform.

I am not interpreting anything. There is nothing to interpret. This isn't a question of opinion at all. Diana either is or is not Wonder Woman within the narrative of the DCEU. If, instead of asking "Is she with you?" Superman had asked, "Who are you?" Diana wouldn't have said Wonder Woman, and if she had, neither Bruce nor Clark would have had any clue who that was. Why? Because Wonder Woman, which is a public title, does not exist.

Diana is not Wonder Woman until she or someone else calls her that, and when that happens it will signify a new stage in heroic development: she will be making a public promise to be all of humanity's protector as their hero and not as the God Killer. There are no moments in the film when Diana is called or calls herself Wonder Woman. At no point in the film is it made clear that the world, Diana, or anyone thinks of Diana as Wonder Woman.

I am not arguing about ideas, interpretations, or your feelings about iconic moments in blockbuster films. I am talking about literal facts. It is a fact that Diana has not yet been named Wonder Woman. Diana has not yet been embraced by that name or been called by that name. The name would be foreign to her multilingual lips. She would not know it. Wonder Woman is a concept that you and I know, so we can call it when we see whispers and promises of it. The people of her world -- the people within the DCEU -- are not similarly enlightened.

Until you can point to a moment that is indisputably canon in which Diana or any member of the DCEU universe public thinks of her as Wonder Woman (not a hero, but a hero named Wonder Woman), then I am done having this conversation with you.

 

[Flemm]

Diana is not Wonder Woman until she or someone else calls her that, and when that happens it will signify a new stage in heroic development: she will be making a public promise to be all of humanity's protector as their hero and not as the God Killer.

The above is an interpretation, not a fact.

The idea that "Diana is not Wonder Woman until someone else calls her that" is a highly debatable idea, one that I think the film clearly rejects.

Recognizing the basic subjectivity of these ideas is necessary for any sort of discussion.

 

[misslane38]

Wonder Woman is simply a name given to Diana based on what she stands for, what she fights for..

Yes, and the people have not given her that name yet. Because they don't know what Diana stands for or fights for. We, the audience, know that because we saw her story and saw hints of the superhero she will be for humanity someday.

When people actually start calling her by that name is immaterial as she exists regardless of that.

It is materially relevant. It is relevant because it marks a clear shift between Diana's pre-BvS and post-BvS mission and approach. It marks a clear shift between her status and relationship with humanity. It is a paradigm shift for her and a major change in her status quo. The name will mean something to her, so it means something to me, and should mean something to the audience.

Please, I implore you and others to distinguish between fiction and reality here. In the reality you and live in, Wonder Woman is a 70+ year icon. We can recognize Wonder Woman when we see her, because we already have a concept for what she is. In fiction, or the world in which the public in the DCEU inhabit (this is the world where Jenny, Wallace, Perry, Alfred, etc. live), they don't have any concept of "Wonder Woman." They still don't, because no one has ever gone by that name in the history of their world.

 

[misslane38]

The above is an interpretation, not a fact.

No, it's not. I need you to understand that I am only talking about the subjective point of view of the people within the fictional universe that the DCEU takes place, because that is what I am referring to when I talk about the impact of Superman's sacrifice and Diana's growth as a person and hero. I'm not talking about your point of view or my point of view as audience members. When I say, "Wonder Woman doesn't exist yet," I mean "Wonder Woman doesn't exist yet to the public she will serve" not to you and me. If someone were to ask Perry White or any other person in the DCEU, including Diana herself, who Wonder Woman was, no one would have a clue.

If I say I want an apple, you can immediately picture what I'm talking about because you've seen an apple and know what that word means. Since, unlike you and I, no one in the fictional world of the DCEU has associated the name "Wonder Woman" with divinely powered, good-hearted, Diana of Themyscira, then the concept of Wonder Woman doesn't exist yet in the DCEU, and no one knows who or what Wonder Woman is. She will have to go public as a superhero for the people in her universe to know her the way we know her.

The idea that "Diana is not Wonder Woman until someone else calls her that" is a highly debatable idea, one that I think the film clearly rejects.

It is not a debatable idea. Does Diana know the name Wonder Woman? Does anyone else in the DCEU? No, is the answer to both questions. End of discussion. The film does not debate the idea because it doesn't even touch the idea of "Wonder Woman" as name or concept.

Recognizing the basic subjectivity of these ideas is necessary for any sort of discussion.

This is not a subjective discussion. If it were, you could offer something, anything, to support your point of view. You cannot because there is nothing. You have nothing. There is no way to "interpret" the film as showing Diana or the public embracing the name Wonder Woman. There is no way for us to debate the subjectivity of something that does not exist. You don't seem to understand how words work or the difference between fiction and reality. I cannot have a conversation with someone so intellectually dishonest.

 

[Micromind]

Yes, and the people have not given her that name yet. Because they don't know what Diana stands for or fights for. We, the audience, know that because we saw her story and saw hints of the superhero she will be for humanity someday.



It is materially relevant. It is relevant because it marks a clear shift between Diana's pre-BvS and post-BvS mission and approach. It marks a clear shift between her status and relationship with humanity. It is a paradigm shift for her and a major change in her status quo. The name will mean something to her, so it means something to me, and should mean something to the audience.

Please, I implore you and others to distinguish between fiction and reality here. In the reality you and live in, Wonder Woman is a 70+ year icon. We can recognize Wonder Woman when we see her, because we already have a concept for what she is. In fiction, or the world in which the public in the DCEU inhabit (this is the world where Jenny, Wallace, Perry, Alfred, etc. live), they don't have any concept of "Wonder Woman." They still don't, because no one has ever gone by that name in the history of their world.

I'm talking in context of the movie only. In the last act of the movie (after Steve Trevor died) Diana became WW.

That Diana has all the qualities of Wonder Woman, the personality of WW exists from that point onwards, whether she is in costume or not and regardless of what people call her, she is Wonder Woman.

You are talking about the public persona of Wonder Woman, which is the only thing that people in modern DCEU are aware of, but she existed even before that.

Here's an interesting thought, if people in current DCEU start calling her as "Diana", even when she is in her iconic costume, would you say that she is not a superhero because she isn't called WW ?

 

[Flemm]

I need you to understand that I am only talking about the subjective point of view of the people within the fictional universe that the DCEU takes place, because that is what I am referring to when I talk about the impact of Superman's sacrifice and Diana's growth as a person and hero.

Those things haven't even been portrayed in the movies yet.

We have no idea what choices the directors and producers will make regarding the character's future story. It's entirely conjecture on your part.

For all we know, there is a legend of the Wonder Woman of Veld, based on the events of this movie. Or the term was coined sometime between WW1 and modern times. So maybe she was called that already. The writers could do that, if they felt like it.

But so what? There's really no reason to obsess about the external label anyway. Other interpretations might put the emphasis elsewhere, and they would be just as valid.

This stuff isn't even close to the realm of fact. Seriously.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Those things haven't even been portrayed in the movies yet.

We have no idea what choices the directors and producers will make regarding the character's future story. It's entirely conjecture on your part.

For all we know, there is a legend of the Wonder Woman of Veld, based on the events of this movie. Or the term was coined sometime between WW1 and modern times. So maybe she was called that already. The writers could do that, if they felt like it.

But so what? There's really no reason to obsess about the external label anyway. Other interpretations might put the emphasis elsewhere, and they would be just as valid.

This stuff isn't even close to the realm of fact. Seriously.

Until someone in the DCEU the equivalent of Cat Grant or Cisco Ramon pins the name Wonder Woman on her, she is still Diana Prince at most to everyone in the DCEU. Because that is the only name Steve Trevor gave her, Diana Prince.
Basically it's the same thing as Selina Kyle in The Dark Knight Rises. While we as outside observers know Selina Kyle is Catwoman, no one within the world of TDKR had ever heard of any villain called Catwoman.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I'm talking in context of the movie only. In the last act of the movie (after Steve Trevor died) Diana became WW.

That Diana has all the qualities of Wonder Woman, the personality of WW exists from that point onwards, whether she is in costume or not and regardless of what people call her, she is Wonder Woman.

You are talking about the public persona of Wonder Woman, which is the only thing that people in modern DCEU are aware of, but she existed even before that.

Here's an interesting thought, if people in current DCEU start calling her as "Diana", even when she is in her iconic costume, would you say that she is not a superhero because she isn't called WW ?

No one is disputing that. The discussion is whether any person within the DCEU has specifically called her Wonder Woman yet. Just like did anyone within in The Dark Knight Rises refer to Selina Kyle as Catwoman.

 

[Vlyse]

Wonder Woman is simply a name given to Diana based on what she stands for, what she fights for..

Same with Superman. And they named him, he didn't go around introducing himself "Hey everyone, I'm Superman!" These 2 heroes wouldn't do that. So I want to see the same for WW, but yes it's obvious Diana IS a Wonder Woman already no disputing that.

 

[Thome216]

What fine hairs we split...

 

[misslane38]

I want to be clear that the reason it's important to acknowledge the FACT that Wonder Woman doesn't exist yet for the people within the public world of the DCEU, including Diana herself, both for the storytelling and for myself as a viewer, is that it is a meaningful shift that I want to be treated as such within the franchise.

If you assert that Wonder Woman already exists within the public world of the DCEU, then you are implicitly accepting the film's exclusion of a scene in which she is named Wonder Woman as a trivial detail. You are implying that Diana earning or choosing that name is a trivial matter, and that the decision to not name her in her own movie was not a deliberate choice, but a careless result from storytellers who either didn't consider it or who did consider it, but thought it wasn't important enough to fuss about; it could be in the movie or not because, to the filmmakers, it was a trivial detail.

Likewise, you are asserting that there needs to be no such scene in Justice League where Diana is named Wonder Woman, because her being known as a labeled Wonder Woman is a fait accompli (a thing that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it). You are also suggesting that a superhero name that belongs to a PUBLIC superhero persona already exists, and therefore that Diana is already a public superhero. As such, you are implying that her character development was completed after her battle with Ares. Therefore, there is no change she must go through from her century in hiding to becoming a public superhero who the world recognizes and calls Wonder Woman.

As a fan of Wonder Woman, I want to be able to witness the moment she becomes Wonder Woman. In the No Man's Land scene and in the movie as a whole, Diana acted Wonder Woman-esque, and I can label her behavior that because I, as someone who exists outside of the fictional world Diana inhabits, have a concept for "Wonder Woman" and therefore know what it can look like and call it when I see it. She didn't become Wonder Woman within the narrative and to the people in that narrative, however, because "Wonder Woman" is the name that coincides with becoming a public superhero to an entire world, in this case the world within the DCEU.

If you say that Wonder Woman already exists within the DCEU public consciousness and Diana's own self-concept, then you are not only claiming that Diana is already a public superhero and that the public know who Wonder Woman is by name, but you are also suggesting the Jenkins and her team treated this development as a trivial detail that no longer even needs to be treated with any fanfare in Justice League. She has no transformation to make between private person and hero, Diana, to a person who has fully embraced a public role with a title for that role: Wonder Woman. I don't like that.

 

[valmont]

I want to be clear that the reason it's important to acknowledge the FACT that Wonder Woman doesn't exist yet for the people within the public world of the DCEU, including Diana herself, both for the storytelling and for myself as a viewer, is that it is a meaningful shift that I want to be treated as such within the franchise.

If you assert that Wonder Woman already exists within the public world of the DCEU, then you are implicitly accepting the film's exclusion of a scene in which she is named Wonder Woman as a trivial detail. You are implying that Diana earning or choosing that name is a trivial matter, and that the decision to not name her in her own movie was not a deliberate choice, but a careless result from storytellers who either didn't consider it or who did consider it, but thought it wasn't important enough to fuss about; it could be in the movie or not because, to the filmmakers, it was a trivial detail.

Likewise, you are asserting that there needs to be no such scene in Justice League where Diana is named Wonder Woman, because her being known as a labeled Wonder Woman is a fait accompli (a thing that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it). You are also suggesting that a superhero name that belongs to a PUBLIC superhero persona already exists, and therefore that Diana is already a public superhero. As such, you are implying that her character development was completed after her battle with Ares. Therefore, there is no change she must go through from her century in hiding to becoming a public superhero who the world recognizes and calls Wonder Woman.

As a fan of Wonder Woman, I want to be able to witness the moment she becomes Wonder Woman. In the No Man's Land scene and in the movie as a whole, Diana acted Wonder Woman-esque, and I can label her behavior that because I, as someone who exists outside of the fictional world Diana inhabits, have a concept for "Wonder Woman" and therefore know what it can look like and call it when I see it. She didn't become Wonder Woman within the narrative and to the people in that narrative, however, because "Wonder Woman" is the name that coincides with becoming a public superhero to an entire world, in this case the world within the DCEU.

If you say that Wonder Woman already exists within the DCEU public consciousness and Diana's own self-concept, then you are not only claiming that Diana is already a public superhero and that the public know who Wonder Woman is by name, but you are also suggesting the Jenkins and her team treated this development as a trivial detail that no longer even needs to be treated with any fanfare in Justice League. She has no transformation to make between private person and hero, Diana, to a person who has fully embraced a public role with a title for that role: Wonder Woman. I don't like that.

You are mixing different things, I'll try to reply to you later. But that sentence I put in bold had me raised my eyebrows.

 

[misslane38]

You are mixing different things, I'll try to reply to you later. But that sentence I put in bold had me raised my eyebrows.

Wonder Woman is a commitment, not a one time thing. No Man's Land was a start, but it wasn't something she maintained, and it isn't something that garnered her public renown so that she was named Wonder Woman by the public and for all posterity.

You have to decide why you think Jenkins didn't make sure to have Diana named Wonder Woman in that moment by the grateful citizens of Veld or any other time in the film. Why do you think she wasn't named? When do you think she will be, and what do you think will be different and significant about that moment?

I don't believe I'm mixing things, so much as making distinctions between what you and I feel and perceive in our actual reality and what Diana and the DCEU public perceive in their fictional reality. Now, you and I who live in reality where Wonder Woman is a fictional concept we know and recognize may feel that she was Wonder Woman in that moment, but it was only for a moment and the people in Diana's fictional world, including Diana herself, certainly don't think of her as Wonder Woman yet. If you asked them who Wonder Woman is, they'd have no clue.

 

[The Guard]

Diana is A wonder woman. She has clearly not yet been dubbed "Wonder Woman", at least that we've seen. I can't believe this is even up for debate.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I can't believe there has been like two days of this.

 

[terry78]

I came back to see if it was less ridiculous in here. I was wrong.

 

[Longshot777]

Didn't Lex Luthor already named these unknown metahumans in his file????

He never said it by name but I think he has a WW logo implying he calls her Wonder Woman???

And the rest of the league might just go with their Luthor manufactured names.

Boomerang doesn't even know the name, Flash describing him as this red streak or something.

November can't get here soon enough!!!

 

[Micromind]

Lex doesn't need to know what each member of JL is called by the public, he just took the logos that best represented those individuals and used them as icons on his folders in his database.

I mean, even if somebody is unaware what Batman is called by public in Gotham he can still remember his Bat logo on his chest, same for Superman, (and Flash and WW) how can anyone miss that ?

 

[FunkMiller]

I came back to see if it was less ridiculous in here. I was wrong.

You and me both. I mean, come on, who really gives a rosy red **** if `Diana is known as Wonder Woman or not in the confines of the narrative? We know she's bloody Wonder Woman, and that's all that matters.

 

[Thome216]

The WW and Flash logos would seem to be something Lex came up with, rather than something he just found or something already connected to these characters.

When BvS came out, someone questioned whether or not it was Lex then who names Diana as Wonder Woman, esp as there is probably no way that hero name was already attributed to her.

Unless, as was mentioned in another thread, Etta Candy became a pseudo-author and had a little book published after the war about the 'Wonder Woman of Veld'...

 

[Dr.]

The WW and Flash logos would seem to be something Lex came up with...

Meta-textually, we understand that the twin “w’s” on Diana’s costume stand for “Wonder Woman.” But in-universe, I suppose we rationalize that the Themysciran “eagle motif” occasionally becomes so minimalist and/or stylized that eagle wings look a lot like overlapping “w’s.”

In any case, this design element ww is reasonably visible in the Belgium 1918 photo. So presumably, this is where Lex got the “logo” - he didn’t invent it.

 

[Micromind]

Meta-textually, we understand that the twin “w’s” on Diana’s costume stand for “Wonder Woman.” But in-universe, I suppose we rationalize that the Themysciran “eagle motif” occasionally becomes so minimalist and/or stylized that eagle wings look a lot like overlapping “w’s.”

In any case, this design element ww is reasonably visible in the Belgium 1918 photo. So presumably, this is where Lex got the “logo” - he didn’t invent it.

Yup.

Wonder Woman's logo is kind of present on her costume and so is Flash's, Lex Luthor could have seen the flash in costume, after all Flash was active for sometime before Bruce meets him in Justice League as seen in the movie Suicide Squad where Flash captures Boomerang.

And, Lex Luthor has logos in place which he took from their costumes, he may or may not know what they are called.