The Dark Knight Rises Should Batman be "the world's greatest detective"?

[GothamAlleys]

The stuff not everyone can do, that makes him special as a detective, like it made Holmes special. Him discovering hidden connections and meanings. Not just punching in data.

EXACTLY. As I already said before. Detective work isnt just reading a secret file, questioning people and putting stuff in the computer. Its coming up with something based on all the research

 

[RustyCage]

EXACTLY. As I already said before. Detective work isnt just reading a secret file, questioning people and putting stuff in the computer. Its coming up with something based on all the research

Actually, it's a lot like that.

What you're talking about is a sort of super detective, which is an entirely different argument. What he does is definitely detective work.

Further, how is he somehow 'not' coming up with something based on all that research? Not to mention the research itself has even shown creativity on his part compared to typical detectives.

 

[ALP]

I'm guessing that fans want Batman to put a bunch of obscure clues together to solve some grand mystery, a la Sherlock Holmes. I suppose he could have somehow determined that Ducard was Ra's before he revealed himself, but I can't think what mystery could be solved involving the Joker.

He did this in BF and it was awful! Seriously, Nygma's riddles lead to absolutely nothing. The answer of the riddles served no purpose whatsoever, it was the numbers within the Riddles that led Bruce to Nygma. Bruce didn't even have to solve a single riddle to piece the puzzle. All he really had to do was get the numbers from the riddles. Awful writing.

Wow. Yeah. I don't remember it going anything like that. There was no talk of him 'giving up' at any point. Him getting locked into the prison was intentional, he was testing himself and learning from the experience. I thought that was made pretty obvious.

It can go either way.

It is not made specific that he meant to be put in prison. This is only inferred because of what Ra's Al Ghul/Ducard said. And Ducard was only guessing. He did not know Bruce's true intentions. It's very possible he gave up and ended up in prison. He talks about being desperate and having to steal...

"The first time I stole so that I wouldn't starve, yes. I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong. And when I traveled, I learned the fear before a crime and the thrill of success. But I never became one of them."

Judging by what Bruce said, he lost his way. It was probably the stealing and such that got him in prison. He says he stole because he needed to. It was Ra's unfounded idea that he stole to get into prison just to fight. Bruce's words say differently. I also like the idea that he started out wanting to fight crime and channel his energy but lost his way until he was found by Ra's/Ducard.

 

[PreK]

He did this in BF and it was awful! Seriously, Nygma's riddles lead to absolutely nothing. The answer of the riddles served no purpose whatsoever, it was the numbers within the Riddles that led Bruce to Nygma. Bruce didn't even have to solve a single riddle to piece the puzzle. All he really had to do was get the numbers from the riddles. Awful writing.

That is an attack on the execution, not the concept. No reason for someone else's incompetence to effectively distinguish an entirely workable method.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

No its not. We see where he went. He never did anything to become Batman untill Ras found him. And as Ras says, he became lost and didnt know his purpose.l Bruce himself admits he doesnt know what hes looking for. Its not like in the comics that few days after his parents died he decided to become a crime fighter and uses his money to travel the world incognito and learn different skills from best masters in the world, all that while studying law and acting goofy and unfocused in the University to avoid suspicions in the future.



He went o Princeton and then fled to Asia where he learned how to fight probably on the streets since he had no money and lived on the streets. Then he landed in jail. If he really decided to fight injustice then, then he would start travelling the world to train, not runaway from the world with no money. Besides, he said hes loking for the means to fight injustice only when he arrives at Ra's place. He was thinking about it on his way there because he admittedly didnt know what he wants when he first spoke to Ghul



No., Agian, before he met Ras he only wanted to kill people responsible for his parents death. Then he runaway and the rest is told as it is

You're simply ignoring whole pieces of the movie. It's right there, in the dialogue!

"Are you so desperate to fight criminals that you lock yourself in to take them on one at a time?"

"Someone like you is only here by choice. You have been exploring the criminal fraternity"

- That's Ra's, explicitly describing the purpose behind Bruce's travels. BEFORE he offered him a path.

"I seek the means to fight injustice. To turn fear against those who prey on the fearful. "

- That's Bruce, before Ra's teachings. Pretty specific mission statement, before Ra's himself ever said the word "fear."

"Tiger. Jujistu. Panther. You're skilled, but this is not a dance."

- All different fighting styles, all obviously taught by different masters. You don't "pick up" PANTHER STYLE on the streets. Especially to the degree that Ra's, master of ninjas, calls you "skilled". Even the "this is not a dance" remark is Ra's indicating the difference between formal training (which Bruce obviously received) versus practical application (which is what Ra's is offering).

Ducard: "You've traveled the world to understand the criminal mind."

That's it. Right there. How can you deny it?

 

[RustyCage]

Again, if he knew what he wants there wouldnt be a talk about being lost and not knowing what he wants with Ras.

Actually, Ra's was the only one suggesting he was lost. Bruce was just curious about what Ra's was getting at when asking. It's made abundantly clear that he knows exactly what he's doing and what he wants because he's traveling the world and purposely getting locked into prisons to learn about criminals.

He wants to kick some ass.

As was said before, Bruce did already have the same goal, Ra's simply found him and refined the way he would go about looking at and performing it.

He never went around the world to study incognito all those skills like in comics.

I don't recall the film ever saying he didn't. We didn't see every second of his life, just the relevant patches.

Bruce tells the story of his life to Ghul. Not only there isnt any footage showing him doing anything else than living in poverty on the streets, but also theres not even a word about doing anything else. Adding stuff is just fanfic

Assuming that was his entire life story is just as much a fanfic. There's plenty of room for more. Fact is, that door is open.

Relying too much on the bat computer is poor detective work. Batman should be shown getting his hands dirty and doing instrumental detective work without help from super computers every once and a while. Especially when Lucius gets credit for most of the technology.

So I guess the interrogations, clue following, and ninja spying didn't happen.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Actually, it's a lot like that.

What you're talking about is a sort of super detective, which is an entirely different argument. What he does is definitely detective work.

Further, how is he somehow 'not' coming up with something based on all that research? Not to mention the research itself has even shown creativity on his part compared to typical detectives.

No, its not detective work at all. It can take a 10 year old kid or anybody to put stuff in the programmed computer so it can find matches for you and count probability for suspects and locations. Again, Im begging you people to check the late 80's/early 90s Batman and Detective Comics from Grant and Breyfogle team. There are the best examples of Batman's detective work without ANY help from gadgets (he only uses the computer when hes looking at a map). Anyone can read and anyone can punch keybords. But only a detective and a clever mind can collect all the data to come up with new clues that will lead to new clues that will lead to even more clues from which the smart detective can pull out a solution that no casual man could. Again, its all the Batman I grew up with, the late 80s stuff

 

[RustyCage]

No, its not detective work at all. It can take a 10 year old kid or anybody to put stuff in the programmed computer so it can find matches for you and count probability for suspects and locations.

Well, the 10 year old kid would be doing detective work. Either way, you're exaggerating.

 

[PreK]

The absolute statements put a damper on the integrity of the opposing side's credibility. As it's been pointed out, the elements are there. It's certainly not missing. A fairer argument would be to say it's plainly not featured enough, or it's significance is so low that it has little impression on the character.

The average viewer's complete ignorance of how intelligent Batman is, or even the slight memory lapses from fans, is incredibly indicative of the (lack of) impact this trait has had so far in the live-action adaptations.

 

[GothamAlleys]

You're simply ignoring whole pieces of the movie. It's right there, in the dialogue!

"Are you so desperate to fight criminals that you lock yourself in to take them on one at a time?"

"Someone like you is only here by choice. You have been exploring the criminal fraternity"

Fight criminals is different than become a skileld vigilante that will protect jstice in Gotham. That simply wasnt the case with this Bruce. He just ruanway and without any purpose, lived on the streets until Ras showed him the path

"I seek the means to fight injustice. To turn fear against those who prey on the fearful. "

And that was said when Bruce entered Ra's place, something he was thinking about on the way there, because in their previous conversation Bruce didnt know what he wants and started thinking about it. He brought Ras the flower and the answer

"Tiger. Jujistu. Panther. You're skilled, but this is not a dance."

Which he mustve learned on the streets. He was starving and por, he had no means to travel or pay for all those teachings. And again, he never mentioned any special teachings nor did he mention them. Jujitsu can be learned everywhere its not anything special that would require special skills or masters

Ducard: "You've traveled the world to understand the criminal mind."

That's it. Right there. How can you deny it?

Deny what? He hated criminals, thats what the movie implies and what his actions imply. He joined criminals to understand them and then ended up among them in prison. Says nothing about becoming a superskiller detective vigilante who wanted to protect Gotham. In the comics, a young 12 yo Bruce used his money for fake IDs to travel so young and used his money to find the best of the best on different continents. He decided to become Batman few days after his parents death. In BB, he hates criminals and thats very apparent. But he doesnt think of becoming a Batman type of a figure untill Ras gets to him

So I guess the interrogations, clue following, and ninja spying didn't happen

Again, thats NOT detective work. I can spy. I can interrogate. A bum can. A kid can. Its asking and hiding and listening.

 

[ALP]

Actually, Ra's was the only one suggesting he was lost. Bruce was just curious about what Ra's was getting at when asking. It's made abundantly clear that he knows exactly what he's doing and what he wants because he's traveling the world and purposely getting locked into prisons to learn about criminals.

Huh? He specifically states the difference between right and wrong became blurred to him. Demonstrated not only by him stealing in Asia but long before that when he intended to murder Joe Chill.

And Bruce does not say he purposely got locked into prison. That is only stated by a man who knew next to nothing about him. However there is one thing that Bruce and Ra's/Ducard both agreed on, and it was that Bruce became truly lost during this time.

 

[RustyCage]

It is not made specific that he meant to be put in prison.

Um, no, it kind of is: 'You're not the Devil, you're practice.' Etc, etc.

It's very possible he gave up and ended up in prison. He talks about being desperate and having to steal...

Him having to steal has nothing to do with him 'giving up'. He was living like them to learn about them. Your quote supports this:

"The first time I stole so that I wouldn't starve, yes. I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong. And when I traveled, I learned the fear before a crime and the thrill of success. But I never became one of them."

Judging by what Bruce said, he lost his way.

I don't really see how one could reach that conclusion from that. What I got from what he said was that he was putting himself in their shoes willingly, that that was his goal. You're not lost if you're exactly where you want to be.

It was probably the stealing and such that got him in prison.

Maybe, but that would still be intentional. He clearly had the talents to get out. He stole and got caught so he could learn about criminals.

He says he stole because he needed to.

Yes, that was part of him learning.

It was Ra's unfounded idea that he stole to get into prison just to fight. Bruce's words say differently.

No, they pretty much say the same thing.

I also like the idea that he started out wanting to fight crime and channel his energy but lost his way until he was found by Ra's/Ducard.

He was simply a raging vigilante and not a 'symbol' at that point is all. Ra's taught him to shape his rage into something more meaningful.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Well, the 10 year old kid would be doing detective work. Either way, you're exaggerating.

That is not detective work. Thats reading and just pressing enter on the preprogrammed computer or software that does all the work. I cant argue when the other side didnt read Batman doin real detective work. I highly recommend Identity Crisis by Grant and Breyfogle

 

[RustyCage]

Huh? He specifically states the difference between right and wrong became blurred to him. Demonstrated not only by him stealing in Asia ...

You're skewing the quote. He said he lost many assumptions about right and wrong being a simple thing. He didn't say the difference became 'blurred to him'.

The message of that was the complete opposite of your interpretation. He wasn't getting his vision blurred during that experience, he was having his previously blurred vision cleared.

Thus, he was there to learn.

but long before that when he intended to murder Joe Chill.

The revelation he had about right/wrong was long after that. The wanting to murder Chill conflict was about justice versus vengeance, different (but related) subject.

And Bruce does not say he purposely got locked into prison.

Yes he does, see my last reply to you.

However there is one thing that Bruce and Ra's/Ducard both agreed on, and it was that Bruce became truly lost during this time.

You're making that up, I'm sorry.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

The absolute statements put a damper on the integrity of the opposing side's credibility. As it's been pointed out, the elements are there. It's certainly not missing. A fairer argument would be to say it's plainly not featured enough, or it's significance is so low that it has little impression on the character.

The average viewer's complete ignorance of how intelligent Batman is, or even the slight memory lapses from fans, is incredibly indicative of the (lack of) impact this trait has had so far in the live-action adaptations.

You're totally right on that first point. We do love our absolutes.

But I'd have to disagree with your second point, slightly. In fact, I'd say generally audiences are much better at just taking these things at face value and excepting them, whereas fanboys parse out every single element until the emperor is naked, often to deliberately reaffirm the point they've made in their heads. From my experience, Batman is pretty well known for being, if not a SUPER GENIUS, at least the superhero most likely to be a "crime solver" rather than a "crime fighter."

You're right when you say he doesn't do ENOUGH detective work for Batman, but it's still enough to set him apart from most superheroes, like Spider-Man or Superman, as "the superhero who is also a detective."

Get what I'm saying? I think the awareness is there. You see it in media. "Batman's a scientist!" Homer goes. I don't think audiences distinguish enough to say "Batman's not enough of a scientist in this one!" They still think of him as a scientist, even if he's not playing with test tubes on screen in this particular movie.

 

[ALP]

Um, no, it kind of is: 'You're not the Devil, you're practice.' Etc, etc.

Him having to steal has nothing to do with him 'giving up'. He was living like them to learn about them. Your quote supports this:

I don't really see how one could reach that conclusion from that. What I got from what he said was that he was putting himself in their shoes willingly, that that was his goal. You're not lost if you're exactly where you want to be.

Maybe, but that would still be intentional. He clearly had the talents to get out. He stole and got caught so he could learn about criminals.

Yes, that was part of him learning.

No, they pretty much say the same thing.

He was simply a raging vigilante and not a 'symbol' at that point is all. Ra's taught him to shape his rage into something more meaningful.

I don't think it productive with this post to multi quote. So I'll just say it in one.

Bruce is fighting the guys in prison because he doesn't really have a choice. He does not say he meant to be put in prison. Once more, he had difficult even knowing the difference between right and wrong. "You're not the Devil, you're practice." In no way does that prove he meant to be put in prison. Just that he's got no choice but to fight and defend his own ass because he is there.

 

[RustyCage]

That is not detective work. Thats reading and just pressing enter on the preprogrammed computer or software that does all the work. I cant argue when the other side didnt read Batman doin real detective work. I highly recommend Identity Crisis by Grant and Breyfogle

I've read many examples like the ones you're talking about, and seen plenty of it in the 60's show and in the Animated Series. So if you're done making erroneous assumptions about my experiences as a Batman fan, allow me to point out that you have a very flawed idea of what 'detective work' is.

Researching things on computers and using them to find what you want is detective work, by definition. Just because he's using a device doesn't somehow change that fact.

That said, I'd also like to see him do some more thinking on his own. But, while more impressive in a Sherlock fashion, it's no more or less 'detective work' even still.

 

[RustyCage]

Once more, he had difficult even knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Not true.

"You're not the Devil, you're practice." In no way does that prove he meant to be put in prison.

Yeah, it does. The guy is practice. He's practicing on the guy. He's integrating himself into the criminal system to do this, and part of that is spending time in prison, the most hardcore of conditions they have to face.

Just that he's got no choice but to fight and defend his own ass because he is there.

Okay so he's treating the guy as practice, and deliberately mocks him and says so, and you got 'he's only fighting cause he has to' from that??

 

[ALP]

Not true.

Yeah, it does. The guy is practice. He's practicing on the guy. He's integrating himself into the criminal system to do this, and part of that is spending time in prison, the most hardcore of conditions they have to face.

Okay so he's treating the guy as practice, and deliberately mocks him and says so, and you got 'he's only fighting cause he has to' from that??

He could also have decided all of that while in prison. What other choice does he have? Just sit there, eat the prison porridge, and smell the fresh air?

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Fight criminals is different than become a skileld vigilante that will protect jstice in Gotham. That simply wasnt the case with this Bruce. He just ruanway and without any purpose, lived on the streets until Ras showed him the path




And that was said when Bruce entered Ra's place, something he was thinking about on the way there, because in their previous conversation Bruce didnt know what he wants and started thinking about it. He brought Ras the flower and the answer




Which he mustve learned on the streets. He was starving and por, he had no means to travel or pay for all those teachings. And again, he never mentioned any special teachings nor did he mention them. Jujitsu can be learned everywhere its not anything special that would require special skills or masters



Deny what? He hated criminals, thats what the movie implies and what his actions imply. He joined criminals to understand them and then ended up among them in prison. Says nothing about becoming a superskiller detective vigilante who wanted to protect Gotham. In the comics, a young 12 yo Bruce used his money for fake IDs to travel so young and used his money to find the best of the best on different continents. He decided to become Batman few days after his parents death. In BB, he hates criminals and thats very apparent. But he doesnt think of becoming a Batman type of a figure untill Ras gets to him

I never said anything about the idea of being a "Batman type of figure" before meeting Ra's. That's exactly what happened; Ra's gave him that idea. I agree. It's there in the film.

But what is also there is everything I quoted. You concede that he wanted to understand the criminal mind - why? Why would he want that if he had not intentions of being a crime fighter?

What did he mean when he called the guy in prison "Practice"? Practice for what? For being a crime fighter. It can't be any clearer. There's no other answer.

 

[TheBatman072]

I don't think it productive with this post to multi quote. So I'll just say it in one.

Bruce is fighting the guys in prison because he doesn't really have a choice. He does not say he meant to be put in prison. Once more, he had difficult even knowing the difference between right and wrong. "You're not the Devil, you're practice." In no way does that prove he meant to be put in prison. Just that he's got no choice but to fight and defend his own ass because he is there.

"Are you so desperate to fight criminals that you lock yourself in to take them on one at a time?"

That sentence completely negates what you just said.

 

[PreK]

You're totally right on that first point. We do love our absolutes.

But I'd have to disagree with your second point, slightly. In fact, I'd say generally audiences are much better at just taking these things at face value and excepting them, whereas fanboys parse out every single element until the emperor is naked, often to deliberately reaffirm the point they've made in their heads. From my experience, Batman is pretty well known for being, if not a SUPER GENIUS, at least the superhero most likely to be a "crime solver" rather than a "crime fighter."

You're right when you say he doesn't do ENOUGH detective work for Batman, but it's still enough to set him apart from most superheroes, like Spider-Man or Superman, as "the superhero who is also a detective."

Get what I'm saying? I think the awareness is there. You see it in media. "Batman's a scientist!" Homer goes. I don't think audiences distinguish enough to say "Batman's not enough of a scientist in this one!" They still think of him as a scientist, even if he's not playing with test tubes on screen in this particular movie.

I see what you're getting at. But even in the case of the general audience, IF they are aware that Batman is smart, I feel it's only due to them reiterating a factoid that's been spoonfed to them. As opposed to interpreting dialog, scenes, and arcs to form their own impression of the character.

Taking a fairly shallow description of Batman as "bad-ass", a common viewer would have no issues in directly referencing specific moments in the films to support that association. Ask them to do the same for Batman's IQ, and I think you'd get a decidedly different response.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I've read many examples like the ones you're talking about, and seen plenty of it in the 60's show and in the Animated Series. So if you're done making erroneous assumptions about my experiences as a Batman fan, allow me to point out that you have a very flawed idea of what 'detective work' is.

Relax, no hostility on my part, I dont know why so feisty. Im sorry you feel my "idea" of detective work is flawed. I just thought that piecing together clues and stories to find more clues and come up with clues and conclusions yourself based on that due to your intelligence IS a detective work. Thats what it used to be in Zorro, old Batman stories and even Scooby Doo cartoons. I dont count throwing things in the computer and pressing enter on the sorting program to be a work of the detective. Detective uses his itellect and unique skills, he doest rely on his gadgets. But again, since youre getting amped up I dont want to argue that point anymnore. Didnt know Ill piss people off with this, and certainly dont want to argue or piss anybody here. Not my intention, never was

 

[ALP]

"Are you so desperate to fight criminals that you lock yourself in to take them on one at a time?"

That sentence completes negates what you just said.

I've mentioned that. Ra's was making an assumption. How would he know Bruce's exact intentions?

Did Ra's read his mind?

 

[GothamAlleys]

One last thin about the detective things. Heres an example of detective work: Catching Two Face based on the following facts: Two Face's duality, second anniversary of his capture and the location and existence of second bank in Gotham - that is detective work - figuring out that TF will try to escape and on which day and which place he will target based on those facts and your special detective intellect to think of those facts and connecting the dots. A detective work is NOT spying on someone hearing "Scarecrow's gonna be at the docs" and saying "oh! I figured out Scarecrow is gonna be at the docs!" or placing a bullet in a computer that identifies suspects for you, sorts out the possibilities and gives you the addresses. C'mon...