The Dark Knight Rises Should Batman be "the world's greatest detective"?

[TheBatman072]

I've mentioned that. Ra's was making an assumption. How would he know Bruce's exact intentions?

Did Ra's read his mind?

How did Ra's know who Bruce was?

Did Ra's read his mind?

No. He was watching him. And figured it all out based on who he was, and what happened to his parents.

Come to think of it, just like Ra's did in the Animated Series.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I think the problem is less with how the character is written and more in simply what stories the directors choose to tell.

Batman has done a bit of detective work in each film. Fact. But the bottom line is that the stories being told are not conducive to detective work. There's little mystery to be had. We know who the culprit is...it's the Joker.

There's minor stuff to be done along the periphery, and that is exactly the stuff that Batman DOES utilize his detective skills for (i.e. digging up the evidence against Falcone). But because it is on the periphery, and not very relevant to the main plot, it's seen as insignificant and not a good enough display of his talents.

 

[RustyCage]

Relax, no hostility on my part, I dont know why so feisty.

You were accusing me of being ignorant of those things. But even though the accusation wasn't true, it also had no affect on what we were talking about, which was:

Im sorry you feel my "idea" of detective work is flawed. I just thought that piecing together clues and stories to find more clues and come up with clues and conclusions yourself based on that due to your intelligence IS a detective work.

Yeah, that is indeed detective work. I never denied that, and I don't know how you got to think that I was. But the thing is, that being detective work doesn't make using computers to find information any less detective work.

Detectives use various methods to detect things. Spying, interrogation, searching various sources of information (such as phone books, newspapers, and, yes, computers). A criminal database on a computer is no different from Zorro looking at Wanted posters. The only difference is that this Batman story doesn't take place back then. Things have changed, including where and how information like that is generally and most easily (ease being ideal for being, you know, effective and fast so the criminal can be brought in ASAP) found.

Thats what it used to be in Zorro, old Batman stories and even Scooby Doo cartoons.

So because the detective is using a new technique to find information (as detectives do as the times change) compared to an older icon of a detective, that means that modern detectives aren't detectives?

It just doesn't work like that, man.

I dont count throwing things in the computer and pressing enter on the sorting program to be a work of the detective.

This is what I mean about you exaggerating. Nolan's Batman does far more than just that. Such as the below quote:

Detective uses his itellect and unique skills

But then you said:

he doest rely on his gadgets.

So he should discard devices that he uses to detect for the sake of pride? Is that what you're implying? And even if it were the case, how does that mean that him using gadgets is somehow 'not' detective work?

It still is detective work by definition, even if you'd prefer he didn't.

But again, since youre getting amped up ...

I'm not amped up. I was just replying to your accusation and telling you it wasn't true.

 

[ALP]

How did Ra's know who Bruce was?

Did Ra's read his mind?

No. He was watching him. And figured it all out based on who he was, and what happened to his parents.

Come to think of it, just like Ra's did in the Animated Series.

I also wondered how Ra's knew Bruce was Batman.

Was Ra's in Gotham the entire time watching Bruce?

 

[RustyCage]

I think the problem is less with how the character is written and more in simply what stories the directors choose to tell.

Batman has done a bit of detective work in each film. Fact. But the bottom line is that the stories being told are not conducive to detective work. There's little mystery to be had. We know who the culprit is...it's the Joker.

There's minor stuff to be done along the periphery, and that is exactly the stuff that Batman DOES utilize his detective skills for (i.e. digging up the evidence against Falcone). But because it is on the periphery, and not very relevant to the main plot, it's seen as insignificant and not a good enough display of his talents.

Well said.

 

[TheBatman072]

I also wondered how Ra's knew Bruce was Batman.

Was Ra's in Gotham the entire time watching Bruce?

Probably.

"We infiltrated every level of this city's infrastructure."

That'd take time.

 

[RustyCage]

A detective work is NOT spying on someone hearing "Scarecrow's gonna be at the docs" and saying "oh! I figured out Scarecrow is gonna be at the docs!"

Believe it or not, spying is detective work. You're investigating and gathering information. There is more to being a detective than just being a genius at connecting dots. (And hell, how do you figure he knew where Two-Face would be in TDK? Give him some credit.)

or placing a bullet in a computer that identifies suspects for you, sorts out the possibilities and gives you the addresses. C'mon...

Okay so he should have just looked at the bullet fragments REALLY REALLY hard with his naked eye and got all that information from that.

Sorry, no. And either way, it's still detective work. He's analyzing evidence and piecing it together with known information. That's what detectives do to learn things.

 

[RustyCage]

I also wondered how Ra's knew Bruce was Batman.

To a man of his sophistication and knowledge, something like that is obvious. And he knew what Bruce wanted to do, Bruce told him, remember?

 

[ALP]

Okay so he should have just looked at the bullet fragments REALLY REALLY hard with his naked eye and got all that information from that.

This is what Frank Miller's Batman would do

To a man of his sophistication and knowledge, something like that is obvious. And he knew what Bruce wanted to do, Bruce told him, remember?

He wasn't that sophisticated. He wanted to murder people.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Believe it or not, spying is detective work. You're investigating and gathering information. There is more to being a detective than just being a genius at connecting dots. (And hell, how do you figure he knew where Two-Face would be in TDK? Give him some credit.)



Okay so he should have just looked at the bullet fragments REALLY REALLY hard with his naked eye and got all that information from that.

Sorry, no. And either way, it's still detective work. He's analyzing evidence and piecing it together with known information. That's what detectives do to learn things.

Im not saying he shouldnt use gadgets. Im saying gadgets doing ALL the work is not a detective work and doesnt make one a detective. If Ill overhear the nest days lottery numbers I cant call myself a detective - I just heard them. I didnt come up with them. Sure gadgets are important, like lab work or so, but they should be just small tools to understand the clue and advance the story that youre piecing, not do everything. In that case, everyone who uses Google or Search button and gets a result is a detective. Sure, putting bullet in the supercomputer in order for it to find the fingerprint and suspects and even give you the address was n understandable movie, but such device doesnt exist so why not write something else, a different way for Bruce to find out all that that would show how smart he is and what a detective he is? Again, detective work is gathering clues and connecting the dots and coming up with something with your intellect - see the Two Face example

ANYONE could put that bullet in a computer and get all the answers. ANYONE could hide and listen to someones conversations. That doesnt say much about Batman being an exceptional, superdetective and how special he is in that area. Or that hes at least above average. But only few, if anyone, could come up wit that Two face stuff

 

[RustyCage]

This is what Frank Miller's Batman would do

Bleh. No thanks.

He wasn't that sophisticated. He wanted to murder people.

So did Hannibal Lecter. How does that make either of them less sophisticated?

 

[RustyCage]

Im not saying he shouldnt use gadgets. Im saying gadgets doing ALL the work is not a detective work and doesnt make one a detective.

The way Batman uses gadgets IS detective work. And it's not 'all' he does.

If Ill overhear the nest days lottery numbers I cant call myself a detective - I just heard them.

Yeah, but that's not what Batman does. He purposely spies using his ninja skills and gadgets, or interrogates people, specifically to obtain this information. The behavior of a detective, not some casual guy overhearing something by chance. You're exaggerating again.

Sure gadgets are important, like lab work or so, but they should be just small tools to understand the clue and advance the story that youre piecing, not do everything.

Excusing the radar lens abuse, that's pretty much the case.

In that case, everyone who uses Google or Search button and gets a result is a detective.

Basically, yes. Of course, what Batman does is on a much higher scale than that, so try not to undercut it, that's dishonest.

Sure, putting bullet in the supercomputer in order for it to find the fingerprint and suspects and even give you the address was n understandable movie, but such device doesnt exist so why not write something else, a different way for Bruce to find out all that that would show how smart he is and what a detective he is?

Because they had this idea. What's so unclever about Bruce coming up with an innovative new way to get tough-to-obtain fingerprints? In fact, that serves into what you were wanting from him as a genius.

Again, detective work is gathering clues and connecting the dots and coming up with something with your intellect - see the Two Face example

Again, since when was he ever not doing this?

Also, in the real world, a lot of the time detectives don't just magically pull the answer out of their brains, they have to actually confirm it via research and reconnaissance.

ANYONE could put that bullet in a computer and get all the answers.

And they'd be doing detective work. However, not just anyone would have the unique IDEA to do so, and not just anyone would HAVE that kind of computer to do so. Thus, it's iconic Batman.

ANYONE could hide and listen to someones conversations.

And, again, they'd be doing detective work. You don't seem to realize that anyone can be a detective. It's not a superpower.

But it's not that simple, Batman goes about it in a particular way and can do so in ways that no one else can because of his gadgets and skills. That's the point.

That doesnt say much about Batman being an exceptional, superdetective and how special he is in that area. Or that hes at least above average.

But the things above do, and he's done other things to demonstrate his intelligence. Again, you're exaggerating him down.

Do you think he used a computer to figure out that Harvey Dent would be interrogating that nutball the Joker had wearing the Rachel Dawes badge? I don't really see how that's possible.

But only few, if anyone, could come up wit that Two face stuff

Eh, it's a bunch of cliche stuff based on his over the top obsession with '2' and duality. Juvenile, really.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I never said anything about the idea of being a "Batman type of figure" before meeting Ra's. That's exactly what happened; Ra's gave him that idea. I agree. It's there in the film.

But what is also there is everything I quoted. You concede that he wanted to understand the criminal mind - why? Why would he want that if he had not intentions of being a crime fighter?

What did he mean when he called the guy in prison "Practice"? Practice for what? For being a crime fighter. It can't be any clearer. There's no other answer.

Even if Bruce uses inmates for practice that in no way accounts for the foresight he had in the comics to master all forms of crime fighting since childhood.

So Bruce trained to physically fight criminals. The next minute he's planning to shoot Joe Chill. Where's the genius who secretly planned to be a world class crime fighter when he was a kid and made it happen with sheer will power and payed off mentors?

Bruce was never lost. He always knew he was going to be world class crime fighter and detective. He just didn't know the theme would be a bat. But ultimately he decided his fate the day his parents were killed and it was with this foresight he was able to mold himself into Batman.

He wasn't just a MMA fighter who was spoon-fed some ninjitsu and magically becomes a legendary crime fighter/detective.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

.


Because they had this idea. What's so unclever about Bruce coming up with an innovative new way to get tough-to-obtain fingerprints? In fact, that serves into what you were wanting from him as a genius.

It never fails to astonish me how drastically different people can view the same thing.

To one person, the fingerprint scene is Batman being a lazy dummy. To me, I was like "That's genius!"

Which, I think, is the way it was meant to come off. It's even illustrated as being basically "over Gordon's head" when he asks "You're going to take fingerprints of a shattered bullet?" That's a veteran cop right there, and Batman's taking him to school.

 

[RustyCage]

He wasn't just a MMA fighter who was spoon-fed some ninjitsu and magically becomes a legendary crime fighter/detective.

I don't think that was what he was implying...

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Even if Bruce uses inmates for practice that in no way accounts for the foresight he had in the comics to master all forms of crime fighting since childhood.

So Bruce trained to physically fight criminals. The next minute he's planning to shoot Joe Chill. Where's the genius who secretly planned to be a world class crime fighter when he was a kid and made it happen with sheer will power and payed off mentors?

Bruce was never lost. He always knew he was going to be world class crime fighter and detective. He just didn't know the theme would be a bat. But ultimately he decided his fate the day his parents were killed and it was with this foresight he was able to mold himself into Batman.

He wasn't just a MMA fighter who was spoon-fed some ninjitsu and magically becomes a legendary crime fighter/detective.

What are you talking about? He didn't start training until after the Chill debacle was done, and he threw the gun in the river.

 

[RustyCage]

It never fails to astonish me how drastically different people can view the same thing.

To one person, the fingerprint scene is Batman being a lazy dummy. To me, I was like "That's genius!"

Which, I think, is the way it was meant to come off. It's even illustrated as being basically "over Gordon's head" when he asks "You're going to take fingerprints of a shattered bullet?" That's a veteran cop right there, and Batman's taking him to school.

Yep, exactly. He surprised proper detectives with his unique detection ideas, a bit like Holmes would!

(Speaking of, has anyone here seen BBC's recent 'Sherlock' series? A Batman/Riddler movie could be well informed by that!)

 

[RustyCage]

What are you talking about? He didn't start training until after the Chill debacle was done, and he threw the gun in the river.

Maybe the out-of-order flashbacks confused some people...

 

[GothamAlleys]

It never fails to astonish me how drastically different people can view the same thing.

To one person, the fingerprint scene is Batman being a lazy dummy. To me, I was like "That's genius!"

Which, I think, is the way it was meant to come off. It's even illustrated as being basically "over Gordon's head" when he asks "You're going to take fingerprints of a shattered bullet?" That's a veteran cop right there, and Batman's taking him to school.

How so? Gordon and the cops simply didnt have th technology to do that. For example, if Id go back to the 70s and someone would find a CD but no one knew whats on it and I would have a CD player, I wouldnt be a genius to think "gee, thats CD and I have a CD player at home".

 

[RustyCage]

How so? Gordon and the cops simply didnt have th technology to do that. For example, if Id go back to the 70s and someone would find a CD but no one knew whats on it and I would have a CD player, I wouldnt be a genius to think "gee, thats CD and I have a CD player at home".

Obviously he was pioneering the idea, that's what's so impressive about it. It wasn't just about having the tech, it was about doing the tests and putting it together, and using his brain to figure he could do all that in the first place.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

How so? Gordon and the cops simply didnt have th technology to do that. For example, if Id go back to the 70s and someone would find a CD but no one knew whats on it and I would have a CD player, I wouldnt be a genius to think "gee, thats CD and I have a CD player at home".

It's still ingenuity, which is a huge part of the character. It's doing something that wouldn't cross your mind, and yes, using technology to reach that end. Remember, scanning the bullet is only one part - He had the foresight to dig out the bullet to begin with, know what to do with it, already have the set-up back at base to deal with it, and know how to recreate the events of the shooting - It was forensics, straight up. I've seen episodes of Dr. Henry Lee! t:

Look, I think we pretty much 100% all agree that Batman, in these films, is not "The World's Greatest Detective." And if you look back at the beginning of this thread, you'll find me arguing in favor of more detective work.

But I'm also a sworn enemy of hyperbole. And sorry, to say there was no detective work in these movies simply isn't true.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

What are you talking about? He didn't start training until after the Chill debacle was done, and he threw the gun in the river.

It doesn't matter what order he did it in, Bruce Wayne knew his fate the day his parent were shot, that what makes him so good, the many skills he mastered since childhood to be the ultimate crime fighter.

He was far above going on a shooting rampage in a courtroom as an adult. By this time, in the comics, he had nearly mastered everything there was to know about crime fighting including detective work.

Bruce had amazing foresight, without it he could have never mastered so many crime fighting arts to become Batman.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

It doesn't matter what order he did it in, Bruce Wayne knew his fate the day his parent were shot, that what makes him so good, the diverse training since childhood to be the ultimate crime fighter.

Okay.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't think that was what he was implying...

That's what Batman Begins implies.

 

[The Guard]

Even if Bruce uses inmates for practice that in no way accounts for the foresight he had in the comics to master all forms of crime fighting since childhood.

Or the obsession. I miss that element.

So Bruce trained to physically fight criminals. The next minute he's planning to shoot Joe Chill. Where's the genius who secretly planned to be a world class crime fighter when he was a kid and made it happen with sheer will power and payed off mentors?

Unfortunately, that's not Nolan's vision of Batman. He did a bit of picking and choosing.

Bruce was never lost. He always knew he was going to be world class crime fighter and detective. He just didn't know the theme would be a bat. But ultimately he decided his fate the day his parents were killed and it was with this foresight he was able to mold himself into Batman.

He never knew he was going to be a world class crimefighter and detective.

He got lost infiltrating one of the simpler elements of organized crime. The movie essentially tells and shows us that he was, in fact, lost and didn't know what to do to fight injustice.

Batman has used gadgets and computers for YEARS in the comics. Since like, the early 40's, he was using infrared, and various devices and whatnot. That is part of his detective work.

And he has done detective work in this franchise.

The gadget he used to reconstruct the bullet was pretty smart.

The problem is, that, spying on people, researching, gathering information and interrogating is what we've seen.

These are things a LOT of people can do. And that's all well and good. I'm glad we've seen those things. They add value.

But to fully realize Batman's potential as a crimefighter, or to even come close, there's another half, the almost impossible, Holmsian, super deduction element that just makes Batman seem absolutely brilliant. We haven't seen that yet. We've just seen Bruce telling people what he's already learned by interrogating people or spying, or using his gadgets.

As has been repeated ad nausem here, Batman isn't just a detective.

He is the world's greatest detective.

We haven't seen that yet. We've seen a man with nigh unlimited resources using them to find information.

I'm hoping Nolan realizes where it needs to go, and has been subtly evolving him, but so far it just looks like he's using different kinds of gadgets and doing routine detective work and his usual interrogations.

ANYONE could put that bullet in a computer and get all the answers. ANYONE could hide and listen to someones conversations. That doesnt say much about Batman being an exceptional, superdetective and how special he is in that area.

This.