BvS Skepticism Regarding the Film - Part 8

[Lencho01]

Allow me to shift the discussion. Concerning the marketing, I feel its been all over the place. As amp'd up as I am for the film, I feel the only thing the trailers and promotion have manage to get people to get around on is the Affleck casting. I feel they've failed to convey the conflict between Batman and Superman to be organic and compelling, while failing to convince people Jessie's Lex is a worthy antagonist. The 2nd trailer just mangled the narrative they were selling with a ton of crazy editing and comical tone.

For me, they've done a better job of selling the film through all the anecdotal stuff said from people within the production, and folks close to people within the production. That said, most people don't fish for that kind of stuff so it matters little in the grand scheme of things.

I'm confident this film will be better than alot of people are expecting, but the marketing isn't helping my case.

I think the trailers have shown enough about the conflict. Pretty much Batman is Dick Cheney and Superman is a dick towards Batman. As far as Lex goes, I think it's clear he's a schemer. Those three seem to be the core of this film to me. Everyone else is just dressing, so their motivations/lines aren't that important.

Now, the tone of the trailers is where I take issue. Just like any film/TV show, editing and music can affect a trailer or TV spot's tone and what people can expect from it. As someone noted earlier, MOS's marketing was better in that the trailers were pretty consistent while BvS is kinda all over the place.

I thought this film was going to be even way more "serious" than MOS to the point of hilarity. But, then they put out a pretty light-hearted trailer in comparison. And now this latest one feels like the type of tone I'd expect for a film simply based on the title with no knowledge of MOS or who's making it, some entertaining action and whatnot.

 

[Val_Zod]

I think the trailers have shown enough about the conflict. Pretty much Batman is Dick Cheney and Superman is a dick towards Batman. As far as Lex goes, I think it's clear he's a schemer. Those three seem to be the core of this film to me. Everyone else is just dressing, so their motivations/lines aren't that important.

Now, the tone of the trailers is where I take issue. Just like any film/TV show, editing and music can affect a trailer or TV spot's tone and what people can expect from it. As someone noted earlier, MOS's marketing was better in that the trailers were pretty consistent while BvS is kinda all over the place.

I thought this film was going to be even way more "serious" than MOS to the point of hilarity. But, then they put out a pretty light-hearted trailer in comparison. And now this latest one feels like the type of tone I'd expect for a film simply based on the title with no knowledge of MOS or who's making it, some entertaining action and whatnot.

My point was not whether they showed enough of the conflict. My issue is that they've failed to make us believe or care about it. They were getting there with the Comic Con trailer, but as you described, just making Batman and Superman to look like jerks against eachother doesn't do a good job of making us invest in their arcs. Music affects the tone as you've mentioned, and I was anticipating the final trailer to use that Irish trailer piece that was speculated to be the accompanying track. I think a more emotional trailer would have been better to sell atleast in place of the 2nd trailer, as I think that 2nd trailer brought everything out of wack.

 

[Lencho01]

My point was not whether they showed enough of the conflict. My issue is that they've failed to make us believe or care about it. They were getting there with the Comic Con trailer, but as you described, just making Batman and Superman to look like jerks against eachother doesn't do a good job of making us invest in their arcs. Music affects the tone as you've mentioned, and I was anticipating the final trailer to use that Irish trailer piece that was speculated to be the accompanying track. I think a more emotional trailer would have been better to sell atleast in place of the 2nd trailer, as I think that 2nd trailer brought everything out of wack.

I'm not sure what you mean be having to believe in it. I can see not caring for it, since I don't care for either of their reasons to hate the other guy. Like I said, they made Batman into Dick Cheney: "If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response. It's not about our analysis ... It's about our response." And Superman for whatever reason is just not a fan of Batman, I guess.

I just take it that the motivations of why they would fight each other wasn't the major concern. Plus, it would probably have been better if they had some sort of history before going at it. So, I guess the bigger concern was just having them fight (and lead to JL), is the bigger concern and good enough selling point of the general audience.

In the end, I'm not sure what kind of film we'll really end up with based on the different tones they've sold so far.

 

[Jaxon]

I'm not sure what you mean be having to believe in it. I can see not caring for it, since I don't care for either of their reasons to hate the other guy. Like I said, they made Batman into Dick Cheney: "If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response. It's not about our analysis ... It's about our response." And Superman for whatever reason is just not a fan of Batman, I guess..

Its pretty clear from that one conversation between Clark and Bruce that superman doesn't agree with Batman's violent manner in handling justice and we suspect that since no one can stop Batman, Superman has enough and confronts him to stop (the car bouncing of his knee scene).
And it's pretty clear that Batman, (already bitter with life (Robin's death, probably Gordon's, Joker history etc) thinks that a guy as powerful as Superman, well if he turns bad like everyone else in my life we're all pretty f****, so why not get him now while I can still do something about it.

 

[DA_Champion]

"Right-wing fantasy" is part of the Batman personae.

It's all about the privileged, rich-from-birth taking matters into their own hands because big government is failing.

 

[The Guard]

I really don't get the complaints about Cavill's hair. They're clearly going for, and achieving, a classic masculine look. There are different hairlines, and despite the fact that his might technically be considered receding in some capacity, they obviously wanted THIS slicked back, flatter look with the shape of his head and to accent the characters silhouette or they'd have put a wig on him. It's like people don't get that they did this on purpose. It's also possible that this simpler, more businesslike look is meant to be a counterpart to Bruce's messier look.

 

[Lencho01]

Its pretty clear from that one conversation between Clark and Bruce that superman doesn't agree with Batman's violent manner in handling justice and we suspect that since no one can stop Batman, Superman has enough and confronts him to stop (the car bouncing of his knee scene).
And it's pretty clear that Batman, (already bitter with life (Robin's death, probably Gordon's, Joker history etc) thinks that a guy as powerful as Superman, well if he turns bad like everyone else in my life we're all pretty f****, so why not get him now while I can still do something about it.

I don't get the vibes that Batman is considered a problem for Gotham. They still got the Batsignal and all that. It just looks like Superman simply doesn't like him, which is weird since he's doing the same thing. Batman (and many others) are afraid of Superman can do because they were given a reason to be afraid from him due to the events of MOS.

 

[Val_Zod]

I'm not sure what you mean be having to believe in it. I can see not caring for it, since I don't care for either of their reasons to hate the other guy. Like I said, they made Batman into Dick Cheney: "If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response. It's not about our analysis ... It's about our response." And Superman for whatever reason is just not a fan of Batman, I guess.

I just take it that the motivations of why they would fight each other wasn't the major concern. Plus, it would probably have been better if they had some sort of history before going at it. So, I guess the bigger concern was just having them fight (and lead to JL), is the bigger concern and good enough selling point of the general audience.

In the end, I'm not sure what kind of film we'll really end up with based on the different tones they've sold so far.

When I say believable, I mean can people understand it. They can sell the Batman vs Superman fight on purely a novel base, but can they get people to see more than just that? For me, they were getting there, but they failed to show it in the trailers. People are still asking why Batman and Superman are fighting to this day. They wouldn't be if the marketing guided them through the conflict better.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's all right if you don't understand the plot prior to seeing the movie.

 

[TDKR1977]

After the trailers, how could anyone be confused as to why they're in conflict? They've done everything short of drawing a picture in crayon to explain it.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ THIS!

Batman blames Superman for the destruction of Metropolis, Superman hates Batman's blatant vigilantism. IS THAT A SPOILER? :P

 

[kguillou]

I think Batman's antagonistic motivation is very clear. I think the real question mark is what really prompts Superman to go out of his way to go to Gotham and threaten Batman. I don't quite buy it that Clark reads a few news stories about his brand of justice, gets upset and then decides to invade on Batman's turf. I feel like there has to be some other precursor to Clark deciding he needs to proactively shut Batman down.

 

[jmc]

I think the issue is there's a lack of consistency as to the type of movie this is based on the trailers. One trailer looks it's an emotional drama, another looks a lot more fun and light, another looks like a intense action packed ride. Compare that to the brilliant marketing of Deadpool which from the start knew exactly the type of movie it was and embraced it, and people responded to it.

 

[Fincher]

My problem with Batman's motivation isn't that I don't understand it; it's that he comes across as completely unlikable. By all appearances he's a Col. Stryker/Bolivar Trask, thinking it's okay to kill someone who's done nothing but try to help people because he could be dangerous, because his power makes him a threat. This movie's going to shift to Batman and Superman working together at some point, and at least at that point we're supposed to cheer for Batman, but if there's a reason for me to want to cheer for him* instead of wanting him to be a casualty or go to jail for attempted murder, the trailers have done nothing to show it.

*Other than "because he's Batman", but being a fan of previous versions of Batman makes me want another good version of Batman, not some d******** who I'm supposed to cheer for out of brand loyalty and because he smashes stuff real good. Someone suggested that Batman and Superman fighting is enough to draw the general audience, but it's not enough to make this one member of the audience very enthusiastic.

 

[jmc]

My biggest fear is exactly what you said, that Batman won't be a likeable character, and I have issues with that interpretation.

 

[Lencho01]

When I say believable, I mean can people understand it. They can sell the Batman vs Superman fight on purely a novel base, but can they get people to see more than just that? For me, they were getting there, but they failed to show it in the trailers. People are still asking why Batman and Superman are fighting to this day. They wouldn't be if the marketing guided them through the conflict better.

I don't know why people are asking why they're fighting. The trailers show it. We see the Superman/Zod fight caused Bruce to lose some people. We see he doesn't trust the type of power Superman has. We see that Superman doesn't like Batman being a vigilante.

 

[rockandrollsoul]

When I say believable, I mean can people understand it. They can sell the Batman vs Superman fight on purely a novel base, but can they get people to see more than just that? For me, they were getting there, but they failed to show it in the trailers. People are still asking why Batman and Superman are fighting to this day. They wouldn't be if the marketing guided them through the conflict better.

That's because most people aren't very bright. The marketing has made it very clear why they're at odds: Batman sees Superman's power as a potential threat and Supes sees Bats as a dangerous vigilante with questionable methods. When audiences see it unfold organically, in context of the actual film, they'll get it.

 

[marcvader]

I think a lot of the general audience are taking it at face value without really paying attention and thrown for a loop because as far as they know Bats and Supes are best buds and always have been.

 

[The Chris]

My biggest fear is exactly what you said, that Batman won't be a likeable character, and I have issues with that interpretation.

Its mine as well. Batman comes off as an illogical fool to me honestly, and my biggest fear story wise is Batman and Superman looking like idiots for almost two hours. The vs. angle always bugged me honestly.

 

[DA_Champion]

Its mine as well. Batman comes off as an illogical fool to me honestly, and my biggest fear story wise is Batman and Superman looking like idiots for almost two hours. The vs. angle always bugged me honestly.

Batman's illogical for wanting to contain the alien?

 

[metaphysician]

Well, in a way, Batman is one of the movie's villains.

You either die a hero...

Nah, so far he's the hero. He got the heroic defiance shots, and he's the one who didn't kill tens of thousands of people with his carelessness.

 

[titansupes]

And when did Superman do that, exactly?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

And when did Superman do that, exactly?

Shh.... Don't let facts get in the way of the way someone "feels". Truthiness is the word of the day.

 

[jmc]

Batman's illogical for wanting to contain the alien?

Illogical for not doing his homework.

 

[Dr doomsday]

Batman is paranoid, he is a jerk there's a reason nearly every partner ends up leaving him, he's a paranoid deceptive control freak. Now I do think we are getting a lot of this out of context, for example Bruce's one percent probability speech, that's likely right before the big fight where obviously something big has happened. Before that Batman is probably thinking of ways to kill Superman just on the off chance he has to just like when batman made fail safes to take out the league, he didn't act on them but he made them on the off chance the league went bad, same with Superman I don't think he's trying to actually kill him until something happens that convinces Bruce he has to put his plan into action.

The conflict is clear if people are still asking why they are fighting then they are being idiots sorry but that's it. Superman believes Batman is brutal vigilante who has violated countless people's civil rights, he's made a mockery of the constitution in Gotham. Brutalizing people crippling them and even marking and branding them. From Superman's perspective that's the actions of someone whose a sadist, someone who is very close to going completely off the deep end. Batman used to be less brutal now he's almost torturing people how long before he kills and how long before he just murders anyone in his way innocent or not. From Superman's perspective Batman is a board line psychopath who Gotham just let's run around and play judge jury and in a way executioner, he's the only real law in Gotham and he's potentially psychotic.

Batman's motive is Superman has near absolute power if he wanted he could level the entire planet. His mere presence brought Zod and The Kryptonian invasion to Earth what will he bring next. Bruce saw the destruction Superman was capable of up close and lost people he cared about during it. Superman is a god to the world and could take it over very easily the only thing stopping him being his own morality and word, if that ever changes the whole world could fall. Yet the world doesn't seem to be doing anything and are just letting the whole human race rest in the hands of this one alien. Also Superman's mere existence renders almost everything batman has done obsolete, this may be the only thing he does that ever matters.

That's why they are fighting it's obvious the third trailer the "bad" one showed this. Also only one trailer has been inconsistent regarding tone the so called best one. The second or third depending on how you look at it wasn't a comedy trailer. Was Bruce and Clark's debate humorous, was the dialog between Bruce and Alfred, the build up to the fight, the actual fight, the build up with Doomsday and his reveal? The answer no, the only humorous part was Lex at the party and the Wonder Woman part, two jokes doesn't equal comedy, if it did The Dark Knight trailer three would be a comedy trailer. Any psychotic ex-boyfriends I should know about oh you have no idea, Rachel's told me everything about you, Bruce in a deadpan voice well I certainly hope not. And the ending will you being wanting the batpod sir in the middle of the day not so subtle, the lambergini then, show Bruce driving it cut to Alfred much more subtle. There's more humor in the Dark Knight one than the Batman V Superman one.

It was a serious trailer and also did a good job showing both sides motives. Remove two jokes and it's humorless. Also they made these trailers less dark because all the critics and audiences brainwashed by Avengers who are convinced all superhero movies must be fun and humorous complained about the movie taking itself seriously and not being like marvel so they reacted and made the next trailers less dark, the people didn't leave them much choice.