The Amazing Spider-Man The Amazing Spider-Man (First Reactions: Critics, Fans) (Spoiler Alert) - - - - - Part 14

[PSYLENTGuardian]

Flag shot was behind the bridge dad as he was rallying the crane operator troops. I caught it both times, but it was nowhere near as egregious as SM3.

Wasn't it a CG flag in SM3? I always laugh whenever I catch SM3 on TV and the flag pops up in that scene.

 

[Eddie Brock]

Wasn't it a CG flag in SM3? I always laugh whenever I catch SM3 on TV and the flag pops up in that scene.

Oh, it had to be CGI. Didn't look real in the slightest. And it was incredibly forced. The flag in TASM caught my attention both times, so it's not like it was subtle, but it wasn't as in-your-face.

 

[Robin91939]

Irregardless is a nonstandard word that is used colloquially -- let me go get my my Strunk & White Elements of Style before I write this post. Respond to my argument, and not some nit-picky word choice that actually reflects your own lacking.

I don't think patronizing has something to do with patriotism, but thank you for the sarcasm. And congratulations on the subtextual use of patronizing me while also discussing the very word against a fake argument you've constructed to avoid mine. But you seem to be a very clever chap so I'll respond to your argument realistically --

Wait? Where's your argument refuting mine?

Oh here it is -- "I think that moment is unearned" "I don't. The girl next to me cried."

Okay -- you beat me buddy. You should go be a lawyer.

Let me spell out why that moment does not work:

Not just that girl cried, but that she felt and believed that moment. And besides her, the theater applauded. Meaning they felt the same thing. Webb succeeded in the moment of making a theater of 700 people cheer. That's the emotional response they were looking for and they got it.

Was it cheap? I don't think it was, at all. You do -- so... here. we. go.

1 - The father. It is clear contrivance to believe that its just natural for the father of the son Spidey saved just so happens to be the crane operator, on shift and duty, at the exact moment that a very well-timed news broadcast relays the exact details of Spidey's plight and what he would need (supposedly, more on this later) in order to get to the Oscorp building. This is absolute contrivance and functions on the hero 'lucking out' in order to save the day, in fact robs Spidey -- it does not elevate him. Nevermind that he asks for them to get one friend, but apparently we have 7 crane operators who are all able to stop exactly what they're doing and move their cranes, which just so happen to be all in the same area of NY, into position with their payloads in order to send them to a building that they SOMEHOW knew he was going (it wasn't covered in the news that Spidey was headed to Oscorp, just that the Lizard was there so I'll give a pass that maybe these crane operators put two-and-two together).

This is just like saying:

"It's so contrived that we start the movie on this kid Peter Parker and he is the ONE GUY in New York City who is in that lab when a spider gets free and bites him on the neck and gives him power and he becomes a super hero -- wow, I guess it's lucky we were following him from the beginning...."

Yes, it's contrived that the boy who Spider-man saved has a father who happens to work construction in New York City. But with all of the "fact is stranger than fiction" coincidences that happen in day-to-day life, it's not entirely impossible.

And it wasn't like these guys were all sitting in the cockpits of the cranes... He made calls, scrambled around and made it happen. It's not all together unbelievable that there would be men at various construction sites at that time at night, as a lot of that kind of work takes place late as to not interfere with traffic and the work day.

2 - The contrivance is made worse by the fact that Spidey has been leaping off rooftops and swinging for an hour now, and suddenly finds himself unable to swing a path through a canyon of tall buildings toward Oscorp? I get he couldn't walk- but he could clearly swing. Why was this entire moment necessary when he so clearly -- according to what the film has established and earned up to this point -- make his way there without their aid? Oh, because we wanted this ultrapatriotic feel good moment.

Spider-man wasn't shot in the leg for that first hour that we see him jumping and leaping. He wasn't slashed down the chest from his encounters with the Lizard. He wasn't physically beaten, exhausted and alone. He could swing in this condition, we SAW that he was physically capable of swinging, but not well, not fast. I believe he crashes into a fire escape and realizes just how far from Oscorp Building he is, and just how hard the trip is going to be in his current state.

So the cranes are moved in a position that allows him to swing non-stop, without having to land or change direction (putting minimal damage on his fatigued, injured body).

How is people helping people an "ultrapatriotic feel good moment?" Is good nature a trait that is exclusively American? No. For sure it isn't. Is it overtly American and patriotic because some of the crane operators had American Flags draped or hanging on parts of their cranes? Many cranes have flags hanging from them. It's an incredibly common practice, especially on cranes in New York City in a post 9-11 world.

3 - The father changed his mind. However, the film offers NEXT TO NOTHING prior to this as to how NY feels about Spider-Man other than the police want him captured. Yes, 'online he's being made out to be a hero' they say, but nothing is actually shown. Spidey doesn't experience any prejudice or idolization prior to this crane scene, so the 'turn' of the public that the film is counting on operates without any real direction as it doesn't have a base to play against. So Spidey is liked by NY? That's nice, was it any different? We really weren't told. And let's not forget, Captain Stacey pinned the entire bridge incident on Spidey, a pinning at which the father was curiously non-vocal in protesting. At least Raimi had a good sense to put the NY responds to Spider-Man montage in there so we got a bead on him being a divisive figure.

The father never had a negative opinion about Spider-man that I saw in the film. He was in need, shouted for help, a masked avenger answered the call and he asked, "who are you?" That was the extent of it.

We don't know what happened off screen. Did the father look for a way to thank this faceless man? Did he talk about the incident with his work buddies, speaking out against the general consensus (based on what the police were saying) that Spider-man was an outlaw? Who knows? But that's not what's important. What's important was that he saw that this guy needed help and he wanted to repay the man who saved his son.

It goes to what Ben says, "when you can help someone, it is your moral obligation to do so." It's a theme of the film -- a theme that is not exclusive to Spider-man himself.

So no, the moment wasn't earned. Not everyone in NY had their son saved by Spidey, and the audience has only been given the police hunting him down and telling the public he's a menace. Secondly, for the entire police force suddenly to back Spidey...this made no sense as well. It made sense because it needed to in the story, just as Stacey saying 'this city needs you' made sense. In reality, these are all empty, shallow words that have no roots in the actual plot of thematics of the movie. They're just things that needed to be said.

The police force backs off of Spidey because they are men following orders. Peter changed the heart of the boss and thus the troops stand down.

It doesn't matter that not everyone in New York had their son saved by the wallcrawler. What matters is that one man did. And had Peter continued acting like a selfish vigilante, and not a selfless hero, he never would have saved that little boy -- and that boy's father never would have gotten his friends together to lend him a hand when he needed it most. It's not luck -- it's a good deed paying off.

The dinner table conversation at the Stacy house plays out like a microcosm of the city. Some people love him and think he's doing something necessary (Peter), some think he's cool (the youngest son) some think he's dangerous (George). It's safe to say that the Stacy dinner table wasn't the only dinner table discussing an internet phenomenon and superhero that recently appeared in New York.

The moment was earned. We are witnessing a hero, who to this point has been misunderstood. The police want him for questioning, and have issued a warrant for his arrest. This is a hero at the end of his rope. He is trying to stop a man who he considers a mentor and a link to his lost past. He is trying to save the girl he's crushed on his whole life perhaps. A girl who actually really likes him. A girl that through his actions, he put in harms way. He's shot, beaten, broken and exhausted.

When the cranes align in front of him it shows him that even though there is this much on the line -- and it feels impossible, he's not alone in it and he can do it. He webs his open wound and summons all of his strength and runs towards the Oscorp Building, needing to save the day and fulfill his moral obligation of using his powers responsibly.

So, if you'd like to respond TO MY POINTS, and not my word choice, go ahead. If you find yourself capable of constructing an argument that isn't based on your generally okay usage of sarcasm and watery humor, be my guest.

I'd love to respond to your points. You've been a favorite poster of mine for years and I've more often than not agreed with you... It might be more fun disagreeing with you, as I like making you type in all caps. (PS: I'm glad you like my sarcasm and humor, even if it was a most cursory compliment).

But if all you have for me is a basic misunderstanding of colloquial language and an irrelevant word-play jab based on said misunderstanding, count on your post not being read by me.

How would you know if my post was of that nature unless you read it? (I assure you, it's not).

-R

 

[Jexx]

^

Thank you for making me understand the crane scene more

I also think that the scene where Connors pulls Spidey up could just be Peter giving Norman a chance to redeem himself.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

After seeing the movie for a second time yesterday, I am gonna have to lower my original rating from an 8/10 to a 7/10. I still like the film, but it's not as awesome as I thought it was the first time I saw it. I now see what the negative reviews were saying about this being a reboot to soon, and the pacing issues, and weak/ under developed villian. Spider Man's origin is common knowledge to pretty much everyone (even people that have never picked up a Spider Man comic before) and they really shouldn't have wasted so much time exploring it, expecially since its already been done on film before. And the lizard really is under developed, he just turns sinister way to fast and his motivations are merky. And plot points just get shoved aside and don't get resolved. I know, I know they are gonna answer them in sequels, but its still kinda dumb to just throw them in this film and don't offer at least a half resolution for them.

Also the pacing is indeed spotty and the action scenes weren't as engaging as a thought. The two stand out's are the short sewer battle and school fight. But with all that said, it's still an enjoyable movie (mostly because Andrew and Emma nail their respective roles). Future movies take note, popular super heroes like Spider Man DO NOT need to retell the origin story every time you want to reboot a franchise. That goes for the next batman movie after DKR. Amazing Spider Man gets a 7/10 for me.

 

[Grommers]

I'm giving this a 6/10, originally I was going to give a 5/10.

The villain was really underdeveloped. Scenes weren't impactful, and it felt like a string of tv episodes strung together opposed to a film. I easily felt I could have seen this on TV in an episode weekly.

Things it did right, I'd like to see a sequel, although this isn't particularly strong, and I feel it's very close in nature to how Sam Raimi's spider-man turned out (in the first movie.), It still has a lot of potential, and I'm hoping by the second movie it will be improved vastly.

As both garfield and emma stone do really well.

Although I'm glad they had spider-man making all his "quips"...they didn't feel witty, and a lot of them felt like they were from the commercials. I could be wrong and there maybe a ton..but if thats the case they sure as hell don't stand out, which means they just weren't EPIC enough in my eyes. As there are some from the cartoon that I quote.

I get that they had to show uncle B's death and all that, but it didn't feel as emotional to me as I expected. This could be because I'm a heartless bastard or it could be because Spidey never had that confrontation with his killer, that's one scene that I really appreciated from sam raimi's universe.

Also its cool he has web shooters..but really? Nobody else would realise hey, this is oscorp technology? And it's easy enough to cut through but strong enough to hold a car? Although I get that it's in the 'fantasy' realm, consistency in the 'fantasy' realm would be nice.

I went into the movie with low expectations, given most reviews I had read prior gave it a 8/10, so I was hoping it was going to surprise me and be that 8/10.

 

[bosef982]

Nothing you've said explains how you get this sentiment from this scene. I can see it a little bit more in that bridge scene in the first Spider-Man, but hey, that was immediately and 9/11 and you have to judge films based on the context of when they are made. But more to the point, if someone from any country sees this movie and feels alienated by a crane operator helping Spidey because Spidey saved his kid, that seems more that person's issue more than an issue with the scene. And I don't even like the scene. It does seem contrived and probably wouldn't happen in real life. But a brilliant high schooler probably wouldn't get super powers from a radioactive spider in real life.

Yes, you have to judge a movie in context -- absolutely. And I'm judging that scene in the larger context of Sony as a whole, with each of the Spider-Man movies, 1 and 3 most notably, having a ham-handedly forced in "America" scene. I get that the first one was post-9/11 and we'll give that a pass, but Spider-Man 3? This is a trait that's appeared in 3 out of the 4 Spidey movies. It's a choice, this American flag, the common people rise together to worship/help Spidey moments.

The argument that because I accept A that I must accept B is flawed. Movies have an allotted degree of buy-in, and you use a lot of that up with the spider and the lizard, so that you have to work hard to make sure that nothing else rings of contrivance. Plus, because the moment isn't earned, I don't want to buy into the moment, whereas a film that's earned it will have you overlook the cheesiness because you love the moment and have been organically brought to that emotionally. It's why the train scene in Spidey, with the people pulling him into the train, works -- it was earned emotionally and the groundwork was laid, and it also didn't stretch feasibility TOO Much. But this argument that because you accept that a man dressed ups as a bat, it gives you carte-blanche to make any sort of unrealistic, implausible choices in a film is fundamentally flawed...

If Batman suddenly was able to fight 10 people at once with one arm broken and blinded, would we go? Well you accepted that a man dresses up as a bat, you should accept that he could do all that....Nope.

 

[bosef982]

Not just that girl cried, but that she felt and believed that moment. And besides her, the theater applauded. Meaning they felt the same thing. Webb succeeded in the moment of making a theater of 700 people cheer. That's the emotional response they were looking for and they got it.

Was it cheap? I don't think it was, at all. You do -- so... here. we. go.



This is just like saying:

"It's so contrived that we start the movie on this kid Peter Parker and he is the ONE GUY in New York City who is in that lab when a spider gets free and bites him on the neck and gives him power and he becomes a super hero -- wow, I guess it's lucky we were following him from the beginning...."

Yes, it's contrived that the boy who Spider-man saved has a father who happens to work construction in New York City. But with all of the "fact is stranger than fiction" coincidences that happen in day-to-day life, it's not entirely impossible.

And it wasn't like these guys were all sitting in the cockpits of the cranes... He made calls, scrambled around and made it happen. It's not all together unbelievable that there would be men at various construction sites at that time at night, as a lot of that kind of work takes place late as to not interfere with traffic and the work day.



Spider-man wasn't shot in the leg for that first hour that we see him jumping and leaping. He wasn't slashed down the chest from his encounters with the Lizard. He wasn't physically beaten, exhausted and alone. He could swing in this condition, we SAW that he was physically capable of swinging, but not well, not fast. I believe he crashes into a fire escape and realizes just how far from Oscorp Building he is, and just how hard the trip is going to be in his current state.

So the cranes are moved in a position that allows him to swing non-stop, without having to land or change direction (putting minimal damage on his fatigued, injured body).

How is people helping people an "ultrapatriotic feel good moment?" Is good nature a trait that is exclusively American? No. For sure it isn't. Is it overtly American and patriotic because some of the crane operators had American Flags draped or hanging on parts of their cranes? Many cranes have flags hanging from them. It's an incredibly common practice, especially on cranes in New York City in a post 9-11 world.




The father never had a negative opinion about Spider-man that I saw in the film. He was in need, shouted for help, a masked avenger answered the call and he asked, "who are you?" That was the extent of it.

We don't know what happened off screen. Did the father look for a way to thank this faceless man? Did he talk about the incident with his work buddies, speaking out against the general consensus (based on what the police were saying) that Spider-man was an outlaw? Who knows? But that's not what's important. What's important was that he saw that this guy needed help and he wanted to repay the man who saved his son.

It goes to what Ben says, "when you can help someone, it is your moral obligation to do so." It's a theme of the film -- a theme that is not exclusive to Spider-man himself.



The police force backs off of Spidey because they are men following orders. Peter changed the heart of the boss and thus the troops stand down.

It doesn't matter that not everyone in New York had their son saved by the wallcrawler. What matters is that one man did. And had Peter continued acting like a selfish vigilante, and not a selfless hero, he never would have saved that little boy -- and that boy's father never would have gotten his friends together to lend him a hand when he needed it most. It's not luck -- it's a good deed paying off.

The dinner table conversation at the Stacy house plays out like a microcosm of the city. Some people love him and think he's doing something necessary (Peter), some think he's cool (the youngest son) some think he's dangerous (George). It's safe to say that the Stacy dinner table wasn't the only dinner table discussing an internet phenomenon and superhero that recently appeared in New York.

The moment was earned. We are witnessing a hero, who to this point has been misunderstood. The police want him for questioning, and have issued a warrant for his arrest. This is a hero at the end of his rope. He is trying to stop a man who he considers a mentor and a link to his lost past. He is trying to save the girl he's crushed on his whole life perhaps. A girl who actually really likes him. A girl that through his actions, he put in harms way. He's shot, beaten, broken and exhausted.

When the cranes align in front of him it shows him that even though there is this much on the line -- and it feels impossible, he's not alone in it and he can do it. He webs his open wound and summons all of his strength and runs towards the Oscorp Building, needing to save the day and fulfill his moral obligation of using his powers responsibly.




I'd love to respond to your points. You've been a favorite poster of mine for years and I've more often than not agreed with you... It might be more fun disagreeing with you, as I like making you type in all caps. (PS: I'm glad you like my sarcasm and humor, even if it was a most cursory compliment).




How would you know if my post was of that nature unless you read it? (I assure you, it's not).

-R

Well thank you for responding to my points, because you got me on the one with the lining up of the cranes being necessitated. Perhaps I wish they just more clearly explained that Spidey was down and out, and I'll even buy that the troops stand down when the boss changes his mind.

I can't back down on the patriotism thing. We may have to agree to disagree. Maybe it's because I work in the industry and I know that no American flag gets past Standards and Practices and creative execs without it first being vetted for 'what are we saying?" American flags are sensitive issue for films that can also do well internationally, thus why Captain America had its titled changed.

I think, having Spidey swing past the American flag in a moment where NY, with American flags in their cranes, are rallying to save him, is an inherently patriotic moment that just didn't feel right in the film. It makes Spidey TOO big, and he's always worked best as a hero of NY.

Also, I just find it odd that we haven't gotten in any of the films that wonderful flavor of Spidey gets so much slack from NY. Spidey 3 failed so badly because they bonafide made him a hero, and Spidey loses some of his sympathy because now he's not the downtrodden witty kid who just can't catch a break. He caught a break, and I felt that he caught a break in this scene.

I think the contrivance of Peter getting his powers is made okay by the fact that none of the contrivances HELP him. Let's be honest, film is contrivance, but the art of it -- the craft of it -- is not making it seem so. That's why Peter getting bit by a Spider at the company his father worked at, while investigating Connors -- works. It works because it's done organically and the illusion of reality is created -- that, and because the Spider-bite complicates Peter's life more than it helps it. Think of it -- when your hero is down and out, and one of his allies inexplicably shows up on scene and saves him, you groan. It's contrived. When your hero is winning the goal, and a bad guy's thug appears and apparently has a gun, and shoots your hero -- you don't question it because it works against the hero. It goes back to basic human psychology: we don't believe good things happen, while we tend to agree that bad things happen all the time with not real reason. That's the basis of why I find this scene, ultimately, so blah --

I thought it would've been more powerful, and stronger, if Spidey would've seen the cranes as they were, not moved by people, and just summoned himself to swing and get around it -- that would've been a more heroic moment for me, and then have the city and the crane operators (one of which can be the father) watch in awe as they realize the sacrifice that Spidey's making. ANd then, in that moment, you have EARNED the NY sees Spidey as a hero (a beat I disagree with still though) and you earned it by having a clear, decisive beat of action one Spidey's part that sells his heroism to the city, while reinforcing it for the audience and showing that he has the gumption to push on even when all hope is nearly lost.

And good point on me having to read your post to find out its nature -- lol.

Look, I liked the film. I've seen it 3 times. However, I think fans need to get up in arms about some of the choices in that film. The sloppy pacing around the school scene, the inexplicable ability of Peter to get bit by a cross species spider and not transform (b/c they excised the dad stuff), the pathetic villain who just reeked of simplistic notes and most of his arc being cut...

Because I can tell you, Sony doesn't care what fans want. They care about filling seats. And I get that people are triumphing its projected $125 dollar week (WEEK), but if you break that down and adjust for 3D inflation, it's not a terribly good opening for Spidey. It's WAY down from its initial openings, and shows that the public may be in danger of having moved on from Spidey. :/

 

[bosef982]

Lastly, the guys who make these movies aren't dumb, and so when I see flagrant mistakes, I see flagrant mistakes that were allowed to happen.

The Lizard, for example. Cleaning up his arc required next to little in terms of storytelling, and yet not doing it killed the character.

Peter's Dad solved the decay algorithm, or was close, and Peter does the rest. He gives this to connors and it looks like it'll work, and Connors is shocked that Peter's genius surpasses his own. He takes the serum, trusting Peter (and by extension his missing father), and instead mutates into a Lizard. But now Connors doesn't want to be the Lizard, and blames Peter (ties into themes of responsibility) and his father (continues that thread and speaks to the mythology), and is on a rampage, especially since The Lizard has a semi-alternate personality. Peter realizes that he messed up, that he was wrong, and tries to contain the Lizard.

The Lizard demands Peter find an antidote, maybe something that comes at a great personal cost. Peter can't, and so to 'motivate' him, The Lizard plans to turn all of NY -- including his Aunt and his pretty girlfriend -- into Lizards.

This just ties everything together better. Excluding Connors having a family, which would've gone a long way to tieing into Peter's themes and softening Connors, everything here could have been accomplished in pick-ups. They CHOSE not to, because they felt people needed to be talked down to with a simplistic "i want to eradicate weakness' -- way to send a message to kids about handicap people, and people with Parkisons, etc.

 

[J.Howlett]

Bosef,

You could make a point as to why the spider bite in Raimi's original didn't do more harm than good to Peter initially. The spider bite is just one of those things that's contrived no matter what. Webb made it a bit more contrived with how it ties to what happened to Connors.

In theory, I agree with the premise of your argument though.

 

[bosef982]

Bosef,

You could make a point as to why the spider bite in Raimi's original didn't do more harm than good to Peter initially. The spider bite is just one of those things that's contrived no matter what. Webb made it a bit more contrived with how it ties to what happened to Connors.

In theory, I agree with the premise of your argument though.

My issues is that the spider that bit Peter did not have the corrected decay algorithm. All of this was cross species study. So why -- even with the decay algorithm solved -- Connors injection caused him to go lizard and the spider bite didn't Peter was a loophole to me that wasn't addressed but I suspect had to do its his father experimenting on him

 

[J.Howlett]

My issues is that the spider that bit Peter did not have the corrected decay algorithm. All of this was cross species study. So why -- even with the decay algorithm solved -- Connors injection caused him to go lizard and the spider bite didn't Peter was a loophole to me that wasn't addressed but I suspect had to do its his father experimenting on him

The use of reptilian DNA maybe? Obviously, like you said, it was cut from the origin they originally intended to tell.

Again, yeah, you're right but there's just so much good in this thing that I can forgive that.

 

[Eggyman]

I've always thought what happened with the spider bite was a freak occurance and wasn't an exact science. If it'd been a different spider or a different person the results would have been very different. Let's not forget that Peter gets bitten by a spider and doesn't inject some formula.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Lastly, the guys who make these movies aren't dumb, and so when I see flagrant mistakes, I see flagrant mistakes that were allowed to happen.

The Lizard, for example. Cleaning up his arc required next to little in terms of storytelling, and yet not doing it killed the character.

Peter's Dad solved the decay algorithm, or was close, and Peter does the rest. He gives this to connors and it looks like it'll work, and Connors is shocked that Peter's genius surpasses his own. He takes the serum, trusting Peter (and by extension his missing father), and instead mutates into a Lizard. But now Connors doesn't want to be the Lizard, and blames Peter (ties into themes of responsibility) and his father (continues that thread and speaks to the mythology), and is on a rampage, especially since The Lizard has a semi-alternate personality. Peter realizes that he messed up, that he was wrong, and tries to contain the Lizard.

The Lizard demands Peter find an antidote, maybe something that comes at a great personal cost. Peter can't, and so to 'motivate' him, The Lizard plans to turn all of NY -- including his Aunt and his pretty girlfriend -- into Lizards.

This just ties everything together better. Excluding Connors having a family, which would've gone a long way to tieing into Peter's themes and softening Connors, everything here could have been accomplished in pick-ups. They CHOSE not to, because they felt people needed to be talked down to with a simplistic "i want to eradicate weakness' -- way to send a message to kids about handicap people, and people with Parkisons, etc.

No offence but 'Dafuq did I just read'

That a pretty bad story arc,this arc was good imo.The only problem I had was Connors was previously shocked on Ratha suggesting testing it on hospital patients and tries to stop him and just half an hour later he goes '**** this **** im gonna change the whole city into Lizards' That didnt fit right
As someone suggested,they should have made Billy Connors die of a incurable illness during that time which would have a made a distraught Connors come to the conclusion that Humans are too weak and should be changed into more powerful creatures

 

[Spiderdevil]

My issues is that the spider that bit Peter did not have the corrected decay algorithm. All of this was cross species study. So why -- even with the decay algorithm solved -- Connors injection caused him to go lizard and the spider bite didn't Peter was a loophole to me that wasn't addressed but I suspect had to do its his father experimenting on him

Lizard and spider have different genes

And how the hell would he experiment on his kid? He cannot change his genetic makeup once he is born

 

[cryptic name]

Yes, you have to judge a movie in context -- absolutely. And I'm judging that scene in the larger context of Sony as a whole, with each of the Spider-Man movies, 1 and 3 most notably, having a ham-handedly forced in "America" scene. I get that the first one was post-9/11 and we'll give that a pass, but Spider-Man 3? This is a trait that's appeared in 3 out of the 4 Spidey movies. It's a choice, this American flag, the common people rise together to worship/help Spidey moments.

The argument that because I accept A that I must accept B is flawed. Movies have an allotted degree of buy-in, and you use a lot of that up with the spider and the lizard, so that you have to work hard to make sure that nothing else rings of contrivance. Plus, because the moment isn't earned, I don't want to buy into the moment, whereas a film that's earned it will have you overlook the cheesiness because you love the moment and have been organically brought to that emotionally. It's why the train scene in Spidey, with the people pulling him into the train, works -- it was earned emotionally and the groundwork was laid, and it also didn't stretch feasibility TOO Much. But this argument that because you accept that a man dressed ups as a bat, it gives you carte-blanche to make any sort of unrealistic, implausible choices in a film is fundamentally flawed...

If Batman suddenly was able to fight 10 people at once with one arm broken and blinded, would we go? Well you accepted that a man dresses up as a bat, you should accept that he could do all that....Nope.

I absolutely would buy Batman beating 10 men blindfolded with a broken arm. I don't even want to **** on your point, but...it's Batman. t:

Look, I totally see where your coming from. Like I said, I didn't like the moment that much. But I just don't see the vitriolic jingoism in the scene that you do. Hell, I've seen the movie twice and never noticed the flag that people have pointed out.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Me too never noticed the flag

 

[X Knight]

I noticed the flag painted on the side of the building.

but, I hated the crane scene, it......didn't even make sense.

I mean........there are BUILDINGS!!! HELLO??!!! Spidey can't swing from those when he's been doing it all along??

it's not like Spidey had to swing over a body of water or something where there was no structure for him to swing from.......

plus, in a movie that's supposed to be "grounded in realism," the crane scene just feel really cheesy and out of place.

 

[Smashlilman]

My issues is that the spider that bit Peter did not have the corrected decay algorithm. All of this was cross species study. So why -- even with the decay algorithm solved -- Connors injection caused him to go lizard and the spider bite didn't Peter was a loophole to me that wasn't addressed but I suspect had to do its his father experimenting on him

The father experimented on him self and passed down some rare genetic trait that allowed peter not to degenerate into Man-Spider.

I noticed the flag painted on the side of the building.

but, I hated the crane scene, it......didn't even make sense.

I mean........there are BUILDINGS!!! HELLO??!!! Spidey can't swing from those when he's been doing it all along??

it's not like Spidey had to swing over a body of water or something where there was no structure for him to swing from.......

plus, in a movie that's supposed to be "grounded in realism," the crane scene just feel really cheesy and out of place.

Supposedly he couldn't get enough momentum to do it since he was shot in the leg. The cranes gave him a straight shot.

 

[Micromind]

@ bosef982

You keep saying the same things over and over again like Peter creating the formula when all he did was to read and memorize the formula (decay rate algorithm formula) he read from his dad's files.

You also say that Lizard wanted Peter to create an antidote, why would Lizard want to become Human again in the first place ? He thinks that he has evolved into a much superior species than Humans.

He even thinks that it would be a good thing if everyone in the city is turned into a Lizard as then they would be free of many diseases and genetic defects. he is not pressurizing Peter to make an antidote, in fact (if I remember correctly, as I have seen the movie only once -that he has one antidote ready in the OsCorp lab, which he created himself, is anything goes wrong.

I replied to all these points in my earlier post.

Originally Posted by bosef982

It finally landed why Lizard didn't ork for me.

And also, I think that stuff about Webb not excising parts of the movie due to fan backlash is bull.

1 - There's a MASSIVE logic hole in this movie whereby Peter and Connors basically are 'bitten' by cross-species subjects. While we understand why Connors is looking at lizards, we are NEVER given one reason why Peter's father was -- for whatever reason -- experimenting with spiders. Either way, both are bitten and one mutates into a huge lizard, and the other just gets gifts. This makes me think -- as does the video game -- that there was more here about Peter having a gene blocker that lets him not turn into a massive monster-spider, especially since the spider he was bit by didn't resolve the decay equation.

1. peter is bitten by genetically modified spider that Peter's Dad was working on initially (remember the Blackboard scene that Peters dad had in his study room ?)

2, Dr. Conners is not bit by a Spider but he injects a serum he was working on which involved Lizard's genes so that he can regrow his hand.

3. there is no "blocker gene" thing, the file Peter discovers in the briefcase contained his father's notes, that included a mathematical formula -a decay rate algorithm formula that basically allows the genetic alteration made to have a more permanent effect.

4. Dr. Conners gets that Formula from Peter (and I think that he suspects that Peter must have got that from his Dad's notes.)

5. Dr. Conners earlier experiments with Lizard's gene swapping serum were not successful as the effect could not last but after getting the decay rate algorithm formula he is successful.

Originally Posted by bosef982

2 - It made no sense for The Lizard to just want to turn all of New York because he dislikes 'weakness." The simpler stain would've been to have The Lizard NOT want to be the Lizard (could've used his family here to great effect and to hit the themes of Peter's parents). And since Peter created the equation that they thought fixed the Lizard serum, and only to have it fail, Connors would blame Peter -- which ties into ideas of responsibility. So Peter is dealing with the emotional impact of having turned this man into a monster, and also his new abilities -- and is learning a harsh lesson in terms of responsibility. Lizard demands he makes a cure, going after Peter, who can't figure it out -- and so Lizard decides to motivate him a little bit by holding all of New York hostage via gassing everyone. If Peter doesn't find a cure, it won't just be Connors who suffers -- it'll be all of New York City.

1. it would be silly of Dr. conners to blame Peter for his state (of him becoming a Lizard) as he injects himself as he is ready to try out the new serum in order to test its effectiveness.

2. peter cannot make a cure by himself as he is no expert on all this subject, he is just trying to understand it. Dr. conners cannot demand a cure from peter, in addition Dr, Conners is happy as Lizard.

Originally Posted by bosef982

More and more, I realize this movie was slapped together to retain the rights and keep the money coffers full. Sony wasn't interested in making a good movie, or even one that made a great deal of sense. Thank God Webb, Garfield, and Stone were able to pull the emotion out of what was essentially a corporation pimping off a beloved hero for no other reason than to continue it.

That is your opinion.

 

[Micromind]

@ bosef982

Dr. Conners needs the formula that Peter found in the file in the briefcase as he wants to regrow his limb (his hand) because his serum contains Lizard's genetic material but Peter does not need the formula to become Spider-Man, as his genes are modified By the experimentally modified spider (which, I assume is only one of its kind in the Lab room full of spiders.).

Both are not experiencing the same thing, the Dr. Conners case is different from that of Peter Parker, that is the reason why Peter is not dependent on the decay rate algorithm formula.

I don't know about the "Blocker gene" that you are talking about as I have not seen the game.

 

[Spider-Who?]

And it's false. It's completely and utterly false, and anyone with a decent IQ and a basic understanding of history, never mind a television, can see that American is not the 'stand together' nation right now, and to represent ourselves as such is both 1) irresponsible as it denies us actually admitting that we have a problem and 2) a complete and utter piece of fiction that serves only to perpetuate soft propaganda to kids.

And yet total strangers have donated over $600,000 to an old woman who was bullied on a school bus. And a town in Texas came together and remodeled a woman's home for free to accommodate her paralysis after being randomly stabbed. Charity levels are at an all time high since the recession. Yesterday in Oregon, a driver smashed his car through the front of a small business, hurting the owner. Instead of celebrating July 4th, the town spent their holiday repairing the damage while the owner was being taken care of in a hospital. After a boy in Maine lost his hand in a freak accident, the town raised the money for his medical needs. In Illinois, a veteran who’s spent most of his life helping others lost his job after health complications. A town he doesn't even live in came to his aid, raising funds to offset the cost of his surgeries, as well as cover bills until he is healthy enough to find work again.
These are just a small number of examples of people standing together to help those in need that I found with a simple google search. Sorry, but anyone who takes the TV news as gospel (where its known to focus on the bad for ratings) needs to have a reality check. Yes, this is a bad time for America, yes, people are disillusioned and untrusting of government, but that does not negate the fact that regardless of the situation, when someone needs help, more often than not, there is someone who comes to their aid.
But for giggles, lets say America IS like you’re describing. What is wrong with a movie about a superhero – whose very existence is to help others – showing normal people doing the same? Superhero movies ARE “feel good” flicks. It’s escapist entertainment. People go to these types of films to feel good and root for the triumph of good over evil. It isn’t “irresponsible” in the slightest.

Yes, this is a larger political discussion too -- but the point is, the overly simplistic "Everyone come together" beats ring so incredibly false to me, especially when they're ham-handed into the plot on a contrivance of the crane operator just so happening to be the father of a kid Spidey saved. Do you know how many people live in NY? Do you understand the near impossible statical probability of that actually occurring, and also of that many cranes being perfectly aligned at that exact moment in order for that all to work?
Also, what exactly was keeping Spidey from getting to Oscorp. He's been swinging the entire film. He clearly knows how to move. So they gave him a more direct path, was it? What was so essential about the NY crane operators help?
The entire scene -- even the cop clearing the avenue so Spidey can get by -- rings of just contrivance over contrivance, just so we can arrive at this feel good moment that misrepresents the reality of this situation.

I won’t get into an argument over statistical possibilities in a movie about a guy getting bit by a spider and a man who turns into a giant lizard. If the likelihood of the event bothers you, that’s fine. I personally didn’t have an issue with it.

And I do very much know what I'm talking about here, buddy. So much so that I look at film as a medium that reflects the social state of the nation, .

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Point being, how is that scene xenophobic?
It takes -- like Superman does -- a character beloved by the world and shoves an American flag behind him and goes, "THIS IS OUR GUY! REMEMBER!"

Um…that’s not xenophobic. Spider-Man lives in America. He is a US citizen. One shouldn’t feel the need to hide that for be forgiving for it. American movies are made for Americans, first and foremost. They’re targeted towards American audiences. It’s ludicrous to think that everything should be done with the mindset of “how is x, y and z – who aren’t even the target audience – going to interpret that?” It’s a rabbit hole that should not be crawled into.

And you know what most of the world does, they groan and go back to enjoy a medical system, educational system, and legal system that seems to be working a helluva lot better than anything we have going on here.

Really? Europe is in danger of a financial collapse (not to mention the ramifications in politics, health, and education its causing). The Middle-East is a war zone. Womens Rights are still non-existant in much of the world. The World Health Organization listed the USA as #37 out of 190 countries, meaning 153 countries aren’t “sitting back and enjoying their health care…that seems to be working a hell of a lot better” than ours. The political environment in much of the Eastern Hemisphere is volatile, with political figures being murdered, because they’re wanting to fix things. Contrary to your belief, the US isn’t as hated or scoffed at as you’d like to think. Much of the world still looks at us in a favorable light. That’s why China is focusing on the US more and more for education (yes, education), Japan adores American popular culture, etc.

So don't come at me with the "I don't know what xenophobia means" or "I must hate seeing American flags."

Sorry, but nothing you said here shows me that you do understand what it means.

I hate when characters that are owned by the world, and should be loved by the world, are so narrowly confined to their country of origin in this territorial attitude.

For the record, I found that showing the flag wasn’t needed in the way they presented it, but I still strongly disagree with your reasoning and question your logic. What is this “characters owned by the world” nonsense? As I said before, Spider-Man (an American character) and New York (an American city) go hand in hand. I’m not saying every scene should have him draped in an American Flag, but to cower away from that fact would actually do Spider-Man a disservice. It has nothing to do with a territorial pissing contest. India and Japan LOVE Spider-Man and American movies. If they had an issue with seeing Americana and references to the US and any perceived patriotism, they wouldn’t be in love with our films.
I’m curious. With your stance that a simple flag shot and some citizens helping Spider-Man are “ultra-patriotic”, “pedantic” and “xenophobic”, how do you feel about Captain America?

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Guys, please use your "inner editor" and cut down on your word counts. The points you're making arent that complicated, and could easily be made with a paragraph or two AT THE MOST.

I read several science blogs every day, and the commenters there manage to make arguments about things like supersymmetry and quantum theory in less time than some of you here. Make an effort please.

And regurgitating the same point over and over again is even worse. Make your point and move on. If someone didnt get it the first time, just let it go.

 

[Eddie Brock]

Methinks if the Spider-Man movies were so deadset on making a statement about Spidey being strictly an American hero, they wouldn't have cast a British actor.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Guys, please use your "inner editor" and cut down on your word counts. The points you're making arent that complicated, and could easily be made with a paragraph or two AT THE MOST.

I read several science blogs every day, and the commenters there manage to make arguments about things like supersymmetry and quantum theory in less time than some of you here.

And regurgitating the same point over and over again is even worse. Make your point and move on. If someone didnt get it the first time, just let it go.

You're obviously new here. Every thread eventually has rambling. It's part of the debating nature of this forum, like it or not. No ones forcing you to read these posts.