The Dark Knight Rises The Dark Knight Sequel Info Hunters

[bullets]

I guess you like watching women play wives and girlfriends who die.

I've seen all of his films and noticed your making a generalized statement and forgetting some of his other female characters.

 

[jmc]

They're obviously sexist and don't like strong female characters. They come up with excuses like she's just a one-dimensional sex appeal character or that Rachel Dawes was his only true love. But actually Dawes was just a chance for a normal life and Catwoman is a much more complicated character than just some random ****e plus is Batman's soul-mate.

I've never bought the notion that Rachel was Bruce's one true love.

 

[returntovoid]

I've never bought the notion that Rachel was Bruce's one true love.

I was not talking about you, I was talking about some other users that don't want Catwoman in the third film that it's one their excuses.

 

[Solidus]

I've had discussions deeper on this before, but I think Rachel was not a "true love" but his only connection to his life prior to his parents death. He obsesses about having that normal life back.

In Begins he creates an idealistic fantasy that he will be able to take down crime, stop all the mobs, clean up the city, and have Rachel marry him in hopes that he will feel like he did prior to the death of his parents. Rachel reminds him of the innocence that he once possessed, and the care-free altruistic loving world he lived in.

However in TDK, (which to this day the teaser was telling in multiple ways) the "escalation" and rise of the Joker destroyed this "Idealistic Batman" and what he stood for. The clean city is blown up visually and it looks like hell again by the end of TDK. But the whole time Rachel realizes that Bruce truly just wants things to be better and she is the symbolism of it. But her death made (and probably do more in the third) to make Batman realize that he will always be Batman, and he started something that he will never be able to finish. And he will be haunted forever, until he dies, he can never be that innocent child again, he will forever have to be Batman, tormented and in pain.

And honestly though Nolan does not have "main" female characters, I always thought he made them to be strong, well written characters. They may be just a emotional core for the main character, but I think interesting ones to say the least.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

There's very much a 'girls are icky' vibe from some posters.

It's really quite strange. There's less now, but still quite an amount of posters that straight up either don't want any major female roles in TDKR or would be perfectly fine if there aren't.

the reason i am fond of Catwoman is that it finally brings an interesting woman to Nolan's table. One that isn't solely used to recite exposition, and one whose existence isn't to die so the male protagonist who loved her feels guilty/bad (TDK, Inception, The Prestige [x2], Memento).

Good point, I think his cliched depiction of women as "dead motivators" is probably his biggest drawback.

I've seen all of his films and noticed your making a generalized statement and forgetting some of his other female characters.

Like who? Not being backchatty, I just honestly come up short in thinking of women who didn't serve stereotypical or "killed for plot push" reasons -
Following - haven't seen this one, but I hear the girl is killed for motivation.
Memento - killed
Batman Begins - Martha Wayne gets practically no attention or dialogue, and Rachel is written fairly poorly
Prestige - Two women killed, another leaves, who doesn't have much personality and serves as part of a love quadrangle
Dark Knight - killed, and Ramirez is a betrayer
Inception - killed, and Ariadne is Nolan's most progressive female character I know of, having survived the plot, though has little character focus and no development. Still does some cool stuff I guess, but is one of the most flat characters.

However in TDK, (which to this day the teaser was telling in multiple ways) the "escalation" and rise of the Joker destroyed this "Idealistic Batman" and what he stood for. The clean city is blown up visually and it looks like hell again by the end of TDK. But the whole time Rachel realizes that Bruce truly just wants things to be better and she is the symbolism of it. But her death made (and probably do more in the third) to make Batman realize that he will always be Batman, and he started something that he will never be able to finish. And he will be haunted forever, until he dies, he can never be that innocent child again, he will forever have to be Batman, tormented and in pain.

Interesting. I don't agree with a lot of it, but certainly well thought out. I find it a little too angsty though, and don't agree that Bruce is man who thinks he'll never be happy and always be in pain. I don't think he is a character who would be like that, especially in Nolan's films. Does he want to be Batman? I don't believe so, and I think he realises he'll be doing this for a long, long time, but I don't think he'll be "haunted forever - tormented and in pain", it strikes me as not what Bruce is. Tormented? Yes. In pain? Occasionally. But not forever, and certainly not constantly.

 

[returntovoid]

I've had discussions deeper on this before, but I think Rachel was not a "true love" but his only connection to his life prior to his parents death. He obsesses about having that normal life back.

In Begins he creates an idealistic fantasy that he will be able to take down crime, stop all the mobs, clean up the city, and have Rachel marry him in hopes that he will feel like he did prior to the death of his parents. Rachel reminds him of the innocence that he once possessed, and the care-free altruistic loving world he lived in.

However in TDK, (which to this day the teaser was telling in multiple ways) the "escalation" and rise of the Joker destroyed this "Idealistic Batman" and what he stood for. The clean city is blown up visually and it looks like hell again by the end of TDK. But the whole time Rachel realizes that Bruce truly just wants things to be better and she is the symbolism of it. But her death made (and probably do more in the third) to make Batman realize that he will always be Batman, and he started something that he will never be able to finish. And he will be haunted forever, until he dies, he can never be that innocent child again, he will forever have to be Batman, tormented and in pain.

Well, said.

 

[The Joker]

I think Rachel was nothing more than an ideal love he had in his head. She knew it. "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life".

I mean they had not seen each other in years, and he comes back to Gotham, and doesn't even tell her, and then all of a sudden they're in love? Came completely out of left field at the end of Begins.

 

[returntovoid]

Good point, I think his cliched depiction of women as "dead motivators" is probably his biggest drawback.

As comic book fans will put it, just another case of "Women in Refrigerator".

 

[hegele]

I've seen all of his films and noticed your making a generalized statement and forgetting some of his other female characters.

Mememto:
Carrie Anne Moss- exposition sound piece on Guy's condition.
The Wife- idea of love told to us, but never shown. she dies. man angry.

Insomia:
Hillary Swank- an exposition sound piece on how cool Pacino was back in the day.

Batman Begins:
Katie Holmes- exposition sound piece on justice and how cool bruce's parents were.

The Presitige:
Jackman's wife- idea of love for Hugh, told but never shown. she dies. man angry.
Scarlett Johnanson- exposition sound piece on how both male protagonists have changed along the way.
Bale's wife- the closest thing to a fully realized woman in a Nolan film... alas... she dies. man angry.

The Dark Knight:
Maggie G- she dies. Both men angry.

Inception:
Juno- exposition sound piece on what the hell is going on. nothing more.
Marie Coltiard- idea of love for Leo, told but never shown. she dies. man angry.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

As comic book fans will put it, just another case of "Women in Refrigerator".

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you agree with me or disagree?

 

[Bat-Mite]

I mean they had not seen each other in years, and he comes back to Gotham, and doesn't even tell her, and then all of a sudden they're in love? Came completely out of left field at the end of Begins.

It was the car. Chicks dig the car.

 

[returntovoid]

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you agree with me or disagree?

I agree, Women in Refrigerator is a term for a comic book plot device of killing the love interest to emotionally drive the male protagonist.

 

[san15]

I've seen all of his films and noticed your making a generalized statement and forgetting some of his other female characters.

They all suck!!!

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I agree, Women in Refrigerator is a term for a comic book plot device of killing the love interest to emotionally drive the male protagonist.

Kyle Raynar coined that didn't he?

 

[returntovoid]

Kyle Raynar coined that didn't he?

Female comic book writer Gail Simone coined it based on the death of Kyle Raynar's girlfriend in the refrigerator in Green Lantern #54 (1994).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators

 

[bullets]

double post

 

[bullets]

Mememto:
Carrie Anne Moss- exposition sound piece on Guy's condition.
The Wife- idea of love told to us, but never shown. she dies. man angry.

Ok , I get what your saying now , but as far as performances I've not been let down.

 

[hegele]

i agree bullets. Nolan certainly has an eye for casting, and has been blessed with women that handle thin material, which is why i think it is imperative for him to cast someone better than Knightly or Portman for a role that might not be living on the page.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Natalie in Memento is a great character.

 

[Dark Knight]

If Marion Cotillard can’t be in this film due to scheduling issues most likely, then this list needs to be narrowed down to Weisz, Watts, Portman and Knightley. A big NO to Hathaway and Lively. I see Hathaway as a better fit for Lois Lane in the Nolan produced and Snyder directed Superman film actually.

I would want Weisz in this film no matter what especially if Cotillard can’t be had and most likely Knightley as Talia. Portman would be nice….however she is already in the Thor film.

 

[returntovoid]

Talia and Catwoman are such swappable characters, they both have had serious a relationship with Batman, they're both gorgeous/sexy brunette that is a anti-heroine/femme-fatale, it can only be one of them as the love interest. The other female villain could be Lady Shiva or Poison Ivy whom Batman has no relationship with or some newly created villainous that's more vicious than anyone from the comics.

 

[obin_gam]

Mememto:
Carrie Anne Moss- exposition sound piece on Guy's condition.
The Wife- idea of love told to us, but never shown. she dies. man angry.

Insomia:
Hillary Swank- an exposition sound piece on how cool Pacino was back in the day.

Batman Begins:
Katie Holmes- exposition sound piece on justice and how cool bruce's parents were.

The Presitige:
Jackman's wife- idea of love for Hugh, told but never shown. she dies. man angry.
Scarlett Johnanson- exposition sound piece on how both male protagonists have changed along the way.
Bale's wife- the closest thing to a fully realized woman in a Nolan film... alas... she dies. man angry.

The Dark Knight:
Maggie G- she dies. Both men angry.

Inception:
Juno- exposition sound piece on what the hell is going on. nothing more.
Marie Coltiard- idea of love for Leo, told but never shown. she dies. man angry.

First of all - I love this post! Cracked me up and its so true!
And secondly, I personally dont have a problem with this use (or rather 'lack of') of female characters. They serve the story well and what awesome stories they are

EDIT: Oh and one more thing; You dont need to have deep and fully developed and intricate(sp?) characters to tell a great story. I think (i have gotten that feeling anyways) that this is sort of how Nolan works - the story comes first and then he finds characters to tell that story with.

 

[Gianakin_]

I think Rachel was nothing more than an ideal love he had in his head. She knew it. "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life".

I mean they had not seen each other in years, and he comes back to Gotham, and doesn't even tell her, and then all of a sudden they're in love? Came completely out of left field at the end of Begins.

I watched BB yesterday and I have to say, while Rachel's confession at the end looked a bit shoehorned, the hints were there that Bruce wanted to tell her and to be more than friends. He was trying to prove himself to her so much (especially in the hotel scene).

I think the romance in BB and TDK is one of the better written I've seen in the superhero genre and in the action/adventure genre in general. It actually IS complicated, as opposed the love interest being a b**ch and making things difficult for the hero.

 

[Gianakin_]

And as far as Nolan's women are concerned, I don't get the problem. Most of his characters are usually symbols or themes and not actual characters. That's his writing style. Women are no different. The guy's movies are mostly plot and not character based.

I doubt this is going to change drastically as his career progresses. Sure, you can get some character development here and there (e.g. Bruce in BB, Pacino in Insomnia, Borden in Prestige), but I don't think we'll see a U turn in his approaches.

 

[hatebox]

We've had this debate on women before. I won't get back into it, but suffice it to say Nolan writes and directs films about emotionally messed up men. That's the consistent thread present in all his films and if that results in a gender gap then so be it. Perhaps it should bother me, but it doesn't.