The Dark Knight Rises The Dark Knight Sequel Info Hunters

[Travesty]

Not necessarily.

I loved my deceased grandparents.

I can't say I love them, since they aren't around anymore. Rachel can't say she loves Bruce, because Bruce is "gone."

Alright, let me try to say this again, cause I know I've already said it. She's not in love with Bruce. She loves him, and sees potential in the future, but she's not romantically in love with Bruce if he's going to be Batman.

We're talking about being romantically in love. Comparing your love for a grandparent or other relative isn't the same kind of romantic love that we're talking about. I get what you're saying, but it's not the same thing.

 

[The Joker]

Am I missing something here? The whole reason that we're having this discussion, is because you said they were in love at the end of Begins, but they weren't. Bruce was (obviously), but Rachel even says she used to love the old Bruce, but she's not in love with the new Bruce that has a mask. She says clearly, that Bruce's face is now the mask, meaning she knows that he has transformed into Batman full time, while hides as Bruce. She's not in love with Batman, and now Bruce is Batman.

They were in love, she just could not be with him when he was Batman. You're not honestly trying to say that because of the absence of a costume, her loving feelings are going to magically turn back on.

She loves him, she just can't be with him while he's Batman. They did a similar situation with Silver St Cloud in the 70's comics. She left Bruce because she couldn't handle him being Batman. In Batman Returns, we're told Vicki left because of the same reason.

It's a classic Batman love interest trait. They don't stop loving him, they just can't be with him when he's Batman.

I'm not denying the fact. What I'm saying, was in the current time-line of the story, she wasn't in love with Bruce. Yes, there was potential for love, but she knew that as long as Bruce was Batman, she couldn't be with him, which she clearly stated at the end of Begins.

Like I said, you don't just switch your feelings on and off because of the presence or absence of a mask. Rachel loved Bruce. She just couldn't be with him while he was Batman.

I always thought that was pretty obvious....

 

[Boom]

I know. I misread your post. I edited the one above to reflect that I agree with you.

 

[Travesty]

They were in love, she just could not be with him when he was Batman. You're not honestly trying to say that because of the absence of a costume, her loving feelings are going to magically turn back on.

Yes I am, and it happens in real life all the time. I know of many instances when a couple is in love, and perhaps one of partners falls into addiction(alcoholism, heroin, etc), and they will fall out of love and have to separate. While both parties may still love each other, they're not necessarily in love. Now, if the person happens to break their addiction, there is a chance that they can come to terms with it, and fall back in love once again.

Like I said, you don't just switch your feelings on and off because of the presence or absence of a mask. Rachel loved Bruce. She just couldn't be with him while he was Batman.

I always thought that was pretty obvious....

Now you're contradicting yourself. If you knew they loved each other since they were kids, then how was it "random" that they were supposedly in love at the end of Begins? I know, and I've said that from the start. You just said it felt random that they were in love with each other at the end of Begins, and that wasn't true, because Rachel even says she loved Bruce, and still can in the future, but for the time being, she can't if he's Batman. And furthermore, it wasn't random at all, because all of Begins showed that both Bruce and Rachel have always loved each other. Again, they do love each other, but they're not both in love with each other. (Bruce is, Rachel isn't)

 

[The Joker]

Yes I am, and it happens in real life all the time. I know of many instances when a couple is in love, and perhaps one of partners falls into addiction(alcoholism, heroin, etc), and they will fall out of love and have to separate. While both parties may still love each other, they're not necessarily in love. Now, if the person happens to break their addiction, there is a chance that they can come to terms with it, and fall back in love once again.

That's a terrible analogy. You're comparing alcoholism and heroin addiction to being Batman? People who become alcoholics and drug addicts become something horrible, and something that is hated, and the kind of person you cannot be around. Rachel doesn't hate Batman. She doesn't hate that Bruce is Batman. She just cannot be in a stable relationship while he is Batman. But she is still able to be in his life and be his friend.

Big difference.

Now you're contradicting yourself. If you knew they loved each other since they were kids, then how was it "random" that they were supposedly in love at the end of Begins?

What are you talking about? Where did I say they were in love when they were kids? They were loved each other as friends. Their was nothing romantic about their friendship anywhere in the movie.

I know, and I've said that from the start. You just said it felt random that they were in love with each other at the end of Begins, and that wasn't true, because Rachel even says she loved Bruce, and still can in the future, but for the time being, she can't if he's Batman. And furthermore, it wasn't random at all, because all of Begins showed that both Bruce and Rachel have always loved each other. Again, they do love each other, but they're not both in love with each other. (Bruce is, Rachel isn't)

Ugh, look dude, you're just repeating yourself now. Just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Caped Crusader]

I've got video of Pfister talking about it here:
http://batman-news.com/2010/11/12/wally-pfister-says-the-dark-knight-rises-wont-be-all-imax-doubts-itll-shoot-in-nola/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Dark-Knight-Rises/117326344965823

 

[Travesty]

That's a terrible analogy. You're comparing alcoholism and heroin addiction to being Batman? People who become alcoholics and drug addicts become something horrible, and something that is hated, and the kind of person you cannot be around. Rachel doesn't hate Batman. She doesn't hate that Bruce is Batman. She just cannot be in a stable relationship while he is Batman. But she is still able to be in his life and be his friend.

Big difference.

It's just a simple analogy. If you want another, then take the military.I know of couples who have gotten divorced because they couldn't take the military lifestyle that the other chose for themselves. I can come up with hundreds of other analogies, I just thought that would be the easiest to see. My point, was that peoples mindsets can change, and people most certainly can fall in and out of love for different reasons/lifestyles.

What are you talking about? Where did I say they were in love when they were kids?

My bad, I just assumed when you said "they were in love", that you meant throughout the movie.

Ugh, look dude, you're just repeating yourself now. Just have to agree to disagree.

Why are you turning ugly on this? Anyways, it's fine, I'll agree to disagree.....

 

[The Joker]

It's just a simple analogy. If you want another, then take religion. I know of couples who fell in love, and one of them found religion after they married, and pushed it on their partner, to the point to where they had to get divorced if they didn't "follow the same path" as them. I can come up with hundreds of other analogies, I just thought that would be the easiest to see. I guess not?.....

That's the same thing. Pushing a religion on someone is asking them to change their way of life in a negative way. Bruce would not be doing that to Rachel if they were together.

Rachel didn't hate Batman, or hate Bruce being Batman. Or even find it difficult to still be his best friend because of it. She actually admired him for it.

She just can't be in a relationship with a guy who leads a double life like that. That's all. And it's understandable.

Why are you turning ugly on this? Anyways, it's fine, I'll agree to disagree.....

Sorry Trav, didn't mean to sound ugly, mate. Apologies. The 'ugh' was in response to just repeating the same thing again. Always a sign the debate has run it's course.

 

[Mister H.]

Travesty is right, Rachel was not in love with Bruce at the end of Batman Begins.

 

[The Joker]

Travesty is right, Rachel was not in love with Bruce at the end of Batman Begins.

I don't agree.

 

[Lungrocket]

She never says she's not in love with him. "Then I found out about your mask". She says she can't be with him as long as he's Batman, but when he stops, they can. She reaffirms in TDK that she meant that when she said it. But in TDK she comes to the realization that day is never going to happen because Bruce will always need Batman. So she lets him go and moves on with Harvey.

Which I always felt was weak or a lame reason to not be with the man you loved.

Essentially what she is saying is that she can't be with a crusader against crime, because his dedication to his work, yet she's taking up with someone that does exactly the same thing. Harvey may not wear a mask, but that's the only difference. Hell, thats even what she does for a career as well.

Doesn't add up or make sense. It's not solid reasoning. It would make more sense if harvey was a garbage man or something.

 

[-JKR-]

Travesty is right, Rachel was not in love with Bruce at the end of Batman Begins.

I don't see it exactly that way. I think that actually, that more or less was when Rachel decided to "let go".
It happens, even if - like someone here said - you can't switch off feelings. But people do that. They go against their feelings, and decide it's better to let go. Nothing strange about that.

 

[The Joker]

Which I always felt was weak or a lame reason to not be with the man you loved.

Essentially what she is saying is that she can't be with a crusader against crime, because his dedication to his work, yet she's taking up with someone that does exactly the same thing. Harvey may not wear a mask, but that's the only difference. Hell, thats even what she does for a career as well.

Doesn't add up or make sense. It's not solid reasoning. It would make more sense if harvey was a garbage man or something.

Well I wouldn't quite compare a district attorney who fights crime in a court room, to a guy who goes out in a costume, prowling rooftops, and fighting guys with his bare hands, while zooming around in a black tank.

 

[Travesty]

Sorry Trav, didn't mean to sound ugly, mate. Apologies. The 'ugh' was in response to just repeating the same thing again. Always a sign the debate has run it's course.

It's all good. I think we both repeated our points in our last few posts.

Anyways, it was fun.

 

[The Joker]

I don't see it exactly that way. I think that actually, that more or less was when Rachel decided to "let go".
It happens, even if - like someone here said - you can't switch off feelings. But people do that. They go against their feelings, and decide it's better to let go. Nothing strange about that.

Thank you. That's what I've been saying. She pushed her feelings away. They were never gone, just boxed up.

 

[Lungrocket]

Well I wouldn't quite compare a district attorney who fights crime in a court room, to a guy who goes out in a costume, prowling rooftops, and fighting guys with his bare hands, while zooming around in a black tank.

But she wasn't talking about that. She was talking about his REAL MASK, his face, not the costume, the one more stoic and highly committed/dedicated to fighting crime.

And again... its lame reasoning. Made more so apparent as she starts a relationship with Harvey.

 

[The Joker]

But she wasn't talking about that. She was talking about his REAL MASK, his face, not the costume, the one more stoic and highly committed/dedicated to fighting crime.

And again... its lame reasoning. Made more so apparent as she starts a relationship with Harvey.

You don't see the difference? For starters Harvey wasn't leading a double life in a costume. Second, Harvey's methods of tackling crime were not half as risky or outrageous as Batman's.

 

[Travesty]

And again... its lame reasoning. Made more so apparent as she starts a relationship with Harvey.

Yeah, I hear ya. I can understand her point in Begins, when she says she can't "handle" that, but then she starts up a relationship with Harvey, who is also "fighting" crime, and also puts his life on the line, as well. I mean, he even had a friggin gun pulled on him right in front of Rachel, and she's still head over heels for him.

 

[Travesty]

You don't see the difference? For starters Harvey wasn't leading a double life in a costume. Second, Harvey's methods of tackling crime were not half as risky or outrageous as Batman's.

That's true, but at the same time, Bruce really isn't living a double life if he was with Rachel. She knows he is Batman. But I can agree about Hervey's methods.

 

[-JKR-]

Well, he doesn't dress up like a Bat. He's not taken the responsabilty of becoming a "symbol" in Gotham. A creature of the night. Something that goes beyond what a "normal" man usually does and is capable to take.

 

[The Joker]

That's true, but at the same time, Bruce really isn't living a double life if he was with Rachel. She knows he is Batman. But I can agree about Hervey's methods.

By double life I mean Bruce Wayne by day, Batman by night. Superheros always have a double life when they have secret identities.

Rachel had no big secrets like that to keep about Harvey's life.

 

[Travesty]

By double life I mean Bruce Wayne by day, Batman by night. Superheros always have a double life when they have secret identities.

Rachel had no big secrets like that to keep about Harvey's life.

Hehe, I understand, I just think it's a lame reason to "dump" him.

Anyways, I think I've had my fair share of Rachel talk. I'm just glad her character is dead.

 

[jmc]

Rachel may at one stage have been in love with Bruce, but as was mentioned it was no longer the case at the end of Begins, it's pretty cut and dry if you ask me. She may still love him as a friend, but she's no longer in love with him romantically, he may feel that way but it's not reciprocated.

 

[Fudgie]

Rachel did love Bruce. The idea of being with him while he was Batman was what put her off.

 

[HolyPurpleSocks]

Rachel loved the Bruce she knew and grew up with...that Bruce disappeared when he ran away after the Joe Chill trial. The same Bruce which returned was just a superficial and callow shell. She loved what he stood for, when donning his mask as Batman. So she could never love a symbol, she can't love an ideal(in a physical sense). She was saying that until he became the man he was in the shadows, in secret- on the surface and as Bruce Wayne once again, that she couldn't be with him. Since she knew that Batman consumed who he was, that she couldn't commit to loving someone who would put himself(and her) at risk so often. Seemed like Bruce wouldn't either- so she chose what she saw as still a noble man, but with much less risk attached. She didn't know Harvey would end up with the same huge target on his back- but she loved Harvey and Batman both throughout all of TDK. She never loved Bruce, save for when they were in their younger years.