Justice League The Joss Whedon Thread

[Benal]

What I mean is that there is footage that Snyder had shot for the Clark and Lois farm scene and Zack shot his own version of the scene where the League resurrects him and he fights them.

Shirtless Cavill and Flash were in the bts footage that Snyder released last year. So the idea for the League to resurrect Superman and then he fights the League wasn't Whedon's. So it's not like he was alive the majority of the movie and working for Steppenwolf.

That's a all different subject. Johns and Berg rewrote the JL script on the fly when Snyder was directing. I'm pretty sure Superman had a different role in the untouched script from Terrio. JL editor said, before BvS was released, that the Knightmare stuff will have a pay off.

Yet even though Brenner literally cut footage from every dramatic moment, there’s a bizarre and confusing Batman nightmare that does far more than just advance the story, where he’s fighting an army of demons that culminates with Superman’s betrayal. "It pays off in universe-building [and in setting up next year’s ‘Justice League’]," the editor promised.

https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.in...atman-v-superman-battles-a-reality-55826/amp/

 

[Matt]

That's a all different subject. Johns and Berg rewrote the JL script on the fly when Snyder was directing. I'm pretty sure Superman had a different role in the untouched script from Terrio. JL editor said, before BvS was released, that the Knightmare stuff will have a pay off.

Yet even though Brenner literally cut footage from every dramatic moment, there’s a bizarre and confusing Batman nightmare that does far more than just advance the story, where he’s fighting an army of demons that culminates with Superman’s betrayal. "It pays off in universe-building [and in setting up next year’s ‘Justice League’]," the editor promised.

https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.in...atman-v-superman-battles-a-reality-55826/amp/

Yeah. I'm not saying it was filmed. I'm not saying Warners didn't say no to it well before filming started (I'm guessing it was one of the first aspects cut when Warners demanded JL be lighter than BvS) . . . but to act as if Snyder never planned for an evil Superman, when there is a literal 5 minutes scene (3.3 % of the entire movie) devoted to it, complete with parademons...it is either willful ignorance, delusion, or denial.

 

[idiot09]

Yet even though Brenner literally cut footage from every dramatic moment, there’s a bizarre and confusing Batman nightmare that does far more than just advance the story, where he’s fighting an army of demons that culminates with Superman’s betrayal. "It pays off in universe-building [and in setting up next year’s ‘Justice League’]," the editor promised.

https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.in...atman-v-superman-battles-a-reality-55826/amp/

Brenner would still be right, and it still doesnt have to mean Superman was evil in their original intentions. For that scene to have a payoff and resolution doesnt mean the warning has to come true. What it most probably means is that Flash's warning ensured that it DIDNT come true. And that's what kinda happens in JL theatrical cut too.

Edit : To give an example from DBZ, Trunks from future comes to warn of an android attack, where every fighter dies battling. This warning, helps them train and be aware of the threat, and they succesfully avoid that apocalyptic timeline. It doesnt make sense to tease and apocalyptic alternate future, have a speedster deliver a warning to avoid it, and then go straight into it.

 

[Matt]

Brenner would still be right, and it still doesnt have to mean Superman was evil in their original intentions. For that scene to have a payoff and resolution doesnt mean the warning has to come true. What it most probably means is that Flash's warning ensured that it DIDNT come true. And that's what kinda happens in JL theatrical cut too.

So you spend over 3 % of your movie foreshadowing something and then the payoff is nothing happens? You realize, in defending Snyder, you are making him sound less competent, right? Because any filmmaker who says "I foreshadowed heavily to an event and then the big payoff was it not ever being referenced again!" is either a liar or Uwe Boll level bad.

 

[idiot09]

So you spend over 3 % of your movie foreshadowing something and then the payoff is nothing happens?

No, the payoff is they work hard(after paying heed to the warning from Flash), to PREVENT that future from happening. Bruce forms the league("You have to find us Bruce"), and brings in Lois("Lois, she's the key"). And they did reference it("I have a dream. It was the end of the world" from the trailer). It was just cut from the theatrical cut.

 

[Matt]

You are really reaching here.

 

[obredaan]

Its hard to say how disoriented Superman came about. I think the fact that disoirented Superman was part of the equation at all is indicative that SOMEONE, be it Snyder, Whedon, WB, or whomever, wanted Superman to fight the rest of the League at some point. My guess is that was one of the few things all parties agreed on. Whedon loves hero vs hero scenes (I mean, there are about 3 or 4 in the two Avenger movies). Snyder clearly wanted an evil Superman/Superman who was controlled by Darkseid at some point (which would've resulted in him fighting the League). And I am sure WB was just like "that sounds like a good action scene...sure."

The beauty of the hero vs hero scenes in Avengers was that Whedon used them to establish the power levels of each character compared to each other. It was a slick way to establish for general audiences who would never know if Thor's hammer could break Cap's shield or who's stronger between Thor/ Hulk or who's the better fighter Widow/Hawkeye. I think this was what the WB wanted to accomplish but the problem is everyone knows Superman is stronger than everyone else. So the scene doesn't really add anything to the film compared to the hero vs hero stuff in Avengers.

 

[Matt]

The beauty of the hero vs hero scenes in Avengers was that Whedon used them to establish the power levels of each character compared to each other. It was a slick way to establish for general audiences who would never know if Thor's hammer could break Cap's shield or who's stronger between Thor/ Hulk or who's the better fighter Widow/Hawkeye. I think this was what the WB wanted to accomplish but the problem is everyone knows Superman is stronger than everyone else. So the scene doesn't really add anything to the film compared to the hero vs hero stuff in Avengers.

I agree. It seemed to serve the same purpose as Hulk vs Avengers (again) in Age of Ultron. It was there because a mid-movie action scene was needed.

 

[idiot09]

You are really reaching here.

I've provided an explanation of what the Knightmare scene was about, and how JL's story provides support of that. How Flash's warning ties into JL's plot. How the scene and its warning was referenced in JL's trailer and was cut. How the exact plot has been in scifi lore for a long time, and used in other stories before like DBZ.

Its literally a thing that so regularly happens , is referenced in TV tropes as "Ominous message from the future" :

"Sometimes the message (or item, person, etc.) is intentionally sent, often as a plea for the people in the past to kindly do something to prevent the Bad Future or as a warning to prepare for it. In those cases it's more likely to be acted on and serve as the reason the rest of the story happens."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OminousMessageFromTheFuture

But okay, I'm reaching. Since I'm not gonna change your mind, despite all the evidence, I'll stop.

 

[Raiden]

I agree. It seemed to serve the same purpose as Hulk vs Avengers (again) in Age of Ultron. It was there because a mid-movie action scene was needed.

The difference is that Hulk does have his weakness, and he can be physically beaten to revert back to Dr. Banner (as seen in AOU). Superman only has one weakness, which is Kryptonite and it can't be used in every movie.

 

[Matt]

I've provided an explanation of what the Knightmare scene was about, and how JL's story provides support of that. How Flash's warning ties into JL's plot. How the scene and its warning was referenced in JL's trailer and was cut. How the exact plot has been in scifi lore for a long time, and used in other stories before like DBZ.

Its literally a thing that so regularly happens , is referenced in TV tropes as "Ominous message from the future" :

"Sometimes the message (or item, person, etc.) is intentionally sent, often as a plea for the people in the past to kindly do something to prevent the Bad Future or as a warning to prepare for it. In those cases it's more likely to be acted on and serve as the reason the rest of the story happens."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OminousMessageFromTheFuture

But okay, I'm reaching. Since I'm not gonna change your mind, despite all the evidence, I'll stop.

You're not offering "evidence." You're offering your speculation and a common trope. And you're offering it against a five minute portion of the movie's prequel and words of the movie's editor, which indicate that you are wrong.

Besides, even if we take what you are saying at face value, it makes Snyder come off as far less competent.

The trope you cite, it is a major driving force. For example, Back to the Future ends with Doc giving Marty a warning about his son. The first half of Back to the Future 2 is averting that fate. Its not subtle. Its not a few throwaway lines. It is the driving force of the movie. That is an example of the trope you cite, when executed competently.

If we are to assume, as you suggest, this was Snyder's plan all along, then it means Snyder devoted 3.3 % of his previous movie to setting up a subplot that amounted to little more than two throw away lines that you referenced and motivated the actions of NO ONE in the movie (Bruce did not gather the league to avert a future with evil Superman, that was not part of the equation driving him forward in this movie at all,...he did it because he believed Superman was dead and was aware of Steppenwolfe). That is awful and superfluous film making.

 

[idiot09]

And you're offering it against a five minute portion of the movie's prequel

Nope.

and words of the movie's editor, which indicate that you are wrong.

Nope again. Already explained that so not gonna do it again.

If we are to assume, as you suggest, this was Snyder's plan all along, then it means Snyder devoted 3.3 % of his previous movie to setting up a subplot that amounted to little more than two throw away lines that you referenced and motivated the actions of NO ONE in the movie (Bruce did not gather the league to avert a future with evil Superman, that was not part of the equation driving him forward in this movie at all,...he did it because he believed Superman was dead and was aware of Steppenwolfe). That is awful and superfluous film making.

Cant talk about driving force in movie and plot details, when majority of his movie was gutted. But we know from the trailers that it was initially there.


ALSO you are deflecting. You are now arguing that it wasnt executed right, when your original point was that Knightmare Superman WAS going to happen. We know from the leaks, that it didnt in Snyder's cut, and that what happens in the Knightmare and foreshadowed in BvS perfectly lines up with what happens in JL.

 

[Matt]

Nope.



Nope again. Already explained that so not gonna do it again.




Cant talk about driving force in movie and plot details, when majority of his movie was gutted. But we know from the trailers that it was initially there.


ALSO you are deflecting. You are now arguing that it wasnt executed right, when your original point was that Knightmare Superman WAS going to happen. We know from the leaks, that it didnt in Snyder's cut, and that what happens in the Knightmare and foreshadowed in BvS perfectly lines up with what happens in JL.

No, I am in arguing in the alternative, which is why I said "If we are to assume, as you suggest, this was Snyder's plan all along . . ."

Just to clarify, I do, in fact, think you are full of **** and reading into things that simply do not exist, to reach conclusions that are simply inaccurate, because your undying love for a man you've never met seems to preclude even the possibility that he may have made a misstep.

 

[Guts]

I think even if a Snyder cut is released and Superman isn't evil for the entire movie, people will still argue that he was going to be evil for the entire movie.

 

[idiot09]

Just to clarify, I do, in fact, think you are full of **** and reading into things that simply do not exist, to reach conclusions that are simply inaccurate, because your undying love for a man you've never met seems to preclude even the possibility that he may have made a misstep.

Thanks for the condescension. Ofcourse its YOU who is right, and you have absolutely psycho-analysed me without knowing anything about me, and your theories are the absolute truth, while mine is "reaching" because of reasons that you have brought out of your ass.

And a very good day to you too sir.

I think even if a Snyder cut is released and Superman isn't evil for the entire movie, people will still argue that he was going to be evil for the entire movie.

True.

 

[Matt]

I think even if a Snyder cut is released and Superman isn't evil for the entire movie, people will still argue that he was going to be evil for the entire movie.

You must've missed this...

Yeah. I'm not saying it was filmed. I'm not saying Warners didn't say no to it well before filming started (I'm guessing it was one of the first aspects cut when Warners demanded JL be lighter than BvS) . . . but to act as if Snyder never planned for an evil Superman, when there is a literal 5 minutes scene (3.3 % of the entire movie) devoted to it, complete with parademons...it is either willful ignorance, delusion, or denial.

No one was saying it was even filmed. Just that it was part of the plan at some point. But I guess when you can't win an argument, you just create an argument, that no one is saying, that you can win.

Thanks for the condescension. Ofcourse its YOU who is right, and you have absolutely psycho-analysed me without knowing anything about me, and your theories are the absolute truth, while mine is "reaching" because of reasons that you have brought out of your ass.

I'm not psycho-analyzing you. That would suggest there is something upstairs to psycho-analyze.

 

[idiot09]

I'm not psycho-analyzing you. That would suggest there is something upstairs to psycho-analyze.

Well I do have my username for a reason.

 

[Matt]

Well I do have my username for a reason.

Good to see someone with a sense of humor in this subforum (which is sorely lacking in it).

 

[Guts]

That's a all different subject. Johns and Berg rewrote the JL script on the fly when Snyder was directing. I'm pretty sure Superman had a different role in the untouched script from Terrio. JL editor said, before BvS was released, that the Knightmare stuff will have a pay off.

Yet even though Brenner literally cut footage from every dramatic moment, there’s a bizarre and confusing Batman nightmare that does far more than just advance the story, where he’s fighting an army of demons that culminates with Superman’s betrayal. "It pays off in universe-building [and in setting up next year’s ‘Justice League’]," the editor promised.

https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.in...atman-v-superman-battles-a-reality-55826/amp/

Bruce even referenced the scene in the trailers. So the stuff from the knightmare scene would have still been relevant. But when did Geoff Johns or Jon Berg say that they rewrote Justice League?

 

[Patchwork Man]

Normally you are hard pressed to spot the differences when a new director steps in. Like when Edgar Wright left Ant-Man but you can almost see EXACTLY which parts are Sndyer and which parts are Whedon. I am so sick of Whedon it's untrue. He ruined Age of Ultron with a jokey murder robot. Way to utterly remove the tension, Whedon. And I'm dropping this right here, right now, Avengers (the first one) is hilariously overrated. Winter Soldier and Civil War are MILES better with regards to plot, tone, action, and depth. Marvel is well rid of Whedon.

But now's he at DC, armed with his

^Shows you what inspired the design of the alien landscape in JL.

 

[heatvision38]

I remember back in the day people despising the possibility of Whedon getting directing credit. Now it seems as though people in here are giving him as much credit as possible. Strange, very strange.

Having seen the movie twice, I am honestly having a hard time believing that the footage we saw was at least 50% Snyder.

When Whedon was announced, we were told that it would adhere to Snyder's vision. I've seen his movies, as we all have, and this movie does not feel like a Snyder movie. So, things do change.

 

[markjoedelonge]

You know, I'm kinda surprised Whedon is still down for Batgirl after he witnessed firsthand how WB treated Snyder, and even cut down his opening Batman comedic scene. But apparently the studio only steps in to meddle with Snyder's stuff. You don't hear anything from Patty and James.

 

[Micromind]

You know, I'm kinda surprised Whedon is still down for Batgirl after he witnessed firsthand how WB treated Snyder, and even cut down his opening Batman comedic scene. But apparently the studio only steps in to meddle with Snyder's stuff. You don't hear anything from Patty and James.

David Ayer.

 

[FunkMiller]

You know, I'm kinda surprised Whedon is still down for Batgirl after he witnessed firsthand how WB treated Snyder, and even cut down his opening Batman comedic scene. But apparently the studio only steps in to meddle with Snyder's stuff. You don't hear anything from Patty and James.

Maybe that’s because they felt the need to meddle with Snyder, because he wasn’t doing a good enough job? They wouldn’t have meddled in his work if BvS had been a movie that was received well and did well at the cinema. WB didn’t meddle in Nolan’s work. You don’t hear anything from Patty because the film they made together was a huge success, and Wan only stayed around when he was guaranteed his own way.

 

[markjoedelonge]

Maybe that’s because they felt the need to meddle with Snyder, because he wasn’t doing a good enough job? They wouldn’t have meddled in his work if BvS had been a movie that was received well and did well at the cinema. WB didn’t meddle in Nolan’s work. You don’t hear anything from Patty because the film they made together was a huge success, and Wan only stayed around when he was guaranteed his own way.

Their meddling of his work FOR BvS caused it's reception to be worse than what it might have been. I'm not saying the UE would have been overwhelmingly positive, but many issues with the pacing and coherence of the plot would have been fixed. WB allowed Nolan to release 2hr 45 mins film for TDKR. WB didn't touch Patty's film. Their meddling with BvS caused it's reception to drastically worse than what it would have been.