The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[Ace of Knaves]

Well there is no denying that he raped "Jonny Jonny's" wife in the new GN. He mentions to him "Now we're are even, no?" so maybe Joker felt Jonny raped his trust in lying about his meeting with Dent, so repays the favour by raping his wife?

I wouldn't put anything past the Joker. There can be sooooo many versions of him. You have your light hearted prankster. The darkly humorous, vain, muderous clown. Then you can have your no holds barred, truly evil, despicable, monstrous versions like in Joker.

But all these different interpretations still maintain the true traits of the Joker. I think psychologically the Joker depicted in Azzarello's GN was one of the most interesting I've seen in a long time, maybe ever.

 

[CaptainClown]

Well I was talking about The Killing Joke. In Joker he definitely did. My point was I don't actually want to see his pale butt raping someone.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh yea there is no need to actually show it. **** that. I don't want to see any comic book character raping people.

 

[regwec]

My problem with the rape in "Joker" was that the way it was carried out didn't reflect any of The Joker's character. It was something any gang or bunch of drunk sailors might do, but there was no reason to see why a flamboyant, fastidious and sexually complex personage like The Joker might participate. It would have made sense for him just to toss the woman over to Croc and his gang, but it seemed strange that he involved himself. I could imagine him taping the act, perhaps, but not performing it.

 

[Hobgoblin]

My problem with the rape in "Joker" was that the way it was carried out didn't reflect any of The Joker's character. It was something any gang or bunch of drunk sailors might do, but there was no reason to see why a flamboyant, fastidious and sexually complex personage like The Joker might participate. It would have made sense for him just to toss the woman over to Croc and his gang, but it seemed strange that he involved himself. I could imagine him taping the act, perhaps, but not performing it.

I assume its because he is aware of how hideous and disturbing he is. Being raped by a "normal" person is horrible enough, but being raped by such a mutilated figure must be even worse.

 

[regwec]

But that doesn't make it funny. The flaying scene was at least based around a kind of visual joke. The rape scene is based purely on humiliating Johnny by gratifying oneself with his wife. The Joker must have felt sexual arousal in order to rape the woman, and even that seems slightly unlikely to me. I just don't see him being particularly interested in the act itself.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

He probably wasn't aroused by it. But as I said before, maybe he felt he had to do it to get back at Jonny. Jonny betrayed him by meeting Dent, so Joker punished him.

 

[The Shape]

My problem with the rape in "Joker" was that the way it was carried out didn't reflect any of The Joker's character. It was something any gang or bunch of drunk sailors might do, but there was no reason to see why a flamboyant, fastidious and sexually complex personage like The Joker might participate. It would have made sense for him just to toss the woman over to Croc and his gang, but it seemed strange that he involved himself. I could imagine him taping the act, perhaps, but not performing it.

The Joker does what he wants, plain and simple. And this rape is feasible for a character like the Joker, who is universally known for his unpredicatbility.

 

[The Joker]

The Joker does what he wants, plain and simple.

Yeah, but rape is not something the Joker would want to do. Sex crimes are not his style. Never have been.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Yeah, but rape is not something the Joker would want to do. Sex crimes are not his style. Never have been.

But power and control is. Rape is not about sex, its about control and making the victim do something they dont want to do.

But that doesn't make it funny. The flaying scene was at least based around a kind of visual joke. The rape scene is based purely on humiliating Johnny by gratifying oneself with his wife. The Joker must have felt sexual arousal in order to rape the woman, and even that seems slightly unlikely to me. I just don't see him being particularly interested in the act itself.

He had to feel arousal to have sex but who knows what caused the arousal? It wasnt necessarily Johnny's ex-wife. Considering this is the Joker, it could have been dead puppies that got him hot.

 

[The Joker]

But power and control is. Rape is not about sex, its about control and making the victim do something they dont want to do.

He's got power and control over many victims in more humourously twisted ways than that. There was no humour in that scene either. It's all about the method and style with the Joker. He sees himself as a performance artist, and Gotham City is his stage. Like he told Carnage, any idiot can kill.

There's nothing stylish or theatrical about rape. Just like pealing the skin off someone, or chopping them up into pieces. These kinds of acts are things the Joker would deem gross and distasteful.

Can anyone here show one shred of evidence from Joker's 68+ year history in the comics where rape or any kind of sexual crimes have interested him? If someone can do that, then I'll concede to the notion that rape is something the Joker would do.

 

[BestGirl]

He's got power and control over many victims in more humourously twisted ways than that. There was no humour in that scene either. It's all about the method and style with the Joker. He sees himself as a performance artist, and Gotham City is his stage. Like he told Carnage, any idiot can kill.

There's nothing stylish or theatrical about rape. Just like pealing the skin off someone, or chopping them up into pieces. These kinds of acts are things the Joker would deem gross and distasteful.

Can anyone here show one shred of evidence from Joker's 68+ year history in the comics where rape or any kind of sexual crimes have interested him? If someone can do that, then I'll concede to the notion that rape is something the Joker would do.

He did strip down and photograph Barbara Gordon. Would that be considered a sexual crime?

 

[eskemosex]

only posting to get my second point but ya jokers cool, hopefully Bane gets done right in a movie and not destroyed like in (shudders) Batman & Robin

 

[Hobgoblin]

He's got power and control over many victims in more humourously twisted ways than that. There was no humour in that scene either. It's all about the method and style with the Joker. He sees himself as a performance artist, and Gotham City is his stage. Like he told Carnage, any idiot can kill.

There's nothing stylish or theatrical about rape. Just like pealing the skin off someone, or chopping them up into pieces. These kinds of acts are things the Joker would deem gross and distasteful.

Can anyone here show one shred of evidence from Joker's 68+ year history in the comics where rape or any kind of sexual crimes have interested him? If someone can do that, then I'll concede to the notion that rape is something the Joker would do.

I will concede that point. There was nothing very funny or clever about the scene.

 

[The Joker]

He did strip down and photograph Barbara Gordon. Would that be considered a sexual crime?

Not unless he got some kind of sexual kick out of it. Which clearly was not the case. It was all a means to an end.

Barbara: "Why are you doing this?"
Joker: "To prove a point. Here's to crime"

It was all just to drive Gordon insane.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Not unless he got some kind of sexual kick out of it. Which clearly was not the case. It was all a means to an end.

Barbara: "Why are you doing this?"
Joker: "To prove a point. Here's to crime"

It was all just to drive Gordon insane.

Did Joker actually rape Barbra and molest the Commissioner? It didnt seem clear from the Killing Joke but I keep hearing thats what happened.

 

[The Joker]

Did Joker actually rape Barbra and molest the Commissioner? It didnt seem clear from the Killing Joke but I keep hearing thats what happened.

No, he didn't. I don't know where some people get that idea from. There's nothing to support that theorey at all. I think if Barbara had been raped, it would have been mentioned in the hospital scene, when the doctor is describing her condition to Batman and Bullock.

When someone is found in a state of undress, one of the first things they'd check for is sexual assault. And as for Jim, why would Joker molest him? When did Joker molest him? He had his freaky little dwarfs strip Gordon and take him on the ghost train to drive him insane. Then afterwards he was thrown in a cage where Joker and his freaks taunted and laughed at him until Batman arrived.

And when Batman arrived, Gordon jibbered out the torture Joker put him thru. And none of it mentioned molestation.

 

[french joker]

No, he didn't. I don't where some people get that idea from. There's nothing to support that theorey at all. I think if Barbara had been raped, it would have been mentioned in the hospital scene, when the doctor is describing her condition to Batman and Bullock.

It's suggested that Joker raped her, but it's never said clearly, so it's really up to the reader.

 

[The Joker]

It's suggested that Joker raped her, but it's never said clearly, so it's really up to the reader.

Where is it suggested? Just because he stripped her? I don't buy that. If Joker raped her, then he would have taken some pics of himself doing it to help further drive Gordon to insanity.

Otherwise what is the point of doing it if he never told Gordon he did it?

 

[terry78]

^Yeah, Joker and Riddler are similar in that they WANT people to know what they did...it's all about the notoriety.

 

[Crook]

Where is it suggested?

From Moore's mouth.

Just because he stripped her? I don't buy that. If Joker raped her, then he would have taken some pics of himself doing it to help further drive Gordon to insanity.

Otherwise what is the point of doing it if he never told Gordon he did it?

The point is it's worse if you don't know what happened. Put yourself in Gordon's shoes. You'd want to know every detail that occurred to your daughter. The fact that there's pictorial evidence suggesting at the very least that Joker undressed her...your mind races as to the possibilities. What kills you is knowing Joker will probably never tell. And he'll laugh at your face for it.

I do like it ambiguous. Very smart way of handling it without alienating the audience nor the character's style.

 

[The Joker]

^Yeah, Joker and Riddler are similar in that they WANT people to know what they did...it's all about the notoriety.

Exactly!

From Moore's mouth.

Got a link?

The point is it's worse if you don't know what happened. Put yourself in Gordon's shoes. You'd want to know every detail that occurred to your daughter. The fact that there's pictorial evidence suggesting at the very least that Joker undressed her...your mind races as to the possibilities. What kills you is knowing Joker will probably never tell. And he'll laugh at your face for it.

Nope, still don't buy that. The Joker is a show man. If he's done something that bad, he will tell you. He'll show it. He'll brag about it. And the fact that neither Gordon or Barbara mentioned or even hinted at the possibility of a rape suggests it never happened, or the possibility never even crossed Gordon's mind at the time. He certainly would have said so to Batman when he was rescued and an emotional mess.

It's not the kind of thing you neglect to mention, or doesn't haunt you. And the bazillion times it's been referenced and haunted the Gordons thru the years, there's no mention of a rape.

 

[Crook]

Got a link?

Unfortunately, no. This was brought up about 3 years ago, and the link is probably dead by now. I don't know why Moore hasn't been asked about this more, it's a topic that seems to always be discussed.

Nope, still don't buy that. The Joker is a show man. If he's done something that bad, he will tell you. He'll show it. He'll brag about it.

He took photos. He stripped Gordon naked, and put him in a room where naked pictures of his daughter were plastered all over for him to gaze at, everywhere he turned. That's not gaudy?

And the fact that neither Gordon or Barbara mentioned or even hinted at the possibility of a rape suggests it never happened, or the possibility never even crossed Gordon's mind at the time. He certainly would have said so to Batman when he was rescued and an emotional mess.

It's not the kind of thing you neglect to mention, or doesn't haunt you. And the bazillion times it's been referenced and haunted the Gordons thru the years, there's no mention of a rape.

Whether they reference it or not is inconsequential because of the ambiguity of it all, in and out of context. If they explicitly bring it up, well there's nothing to wonder about. But assuming in the context of the story that Joker did do it, the Gordon's don't have to talk about it. Rape isn't exactly a subject anyone cares to discuss. Whether it be Barbara or Jim, or both, it's more than plausible they are traumatized about the ordeal to the point where they just want to move on. Keeping quiet is a common reaction in rape cases. For the victims and the family alike.

 

[The Joker]

Unfortunately, no. This was brought up about 3 years ago, and the link is probably dead by now. I don't know why Moore hasn't been asked about this more, it's a topic that seems to always be discussed.

I never heard of this until last year when someone said they thought Joker raped her. To this day I cannot fathom how anyone comes to this conclusion from reading the story. Or the plethora of stories that came after it when the Gordons reflect on their ordeal.

He took photos. He stripped Gordon naked, and put him in a room where naked pictures of his daughter were plastered all over for him to gaze at, everywhere he turned. That's not gaudy?

No, that's just twisted and cruel. That's literally stripping a man down to his bare skin in the cold and rain, like in the story, and torturing him with pics of his daughter naked, shot, and crippled. To push him towards insanity.

If Joker wanted to really push Gordon over the edge, he'd have told him he raped Barbara, or showed him pics of it. He was very determined to prove his point about one bad day driving a man insane. But he didn't mention it.

Joker doesn't do subtle.

Whether they reference it or not is inconsequential because of the ambiguity of it all, in and out of context. If they explicitly bring it up, well there's nothing to wonder about. But assuming in the context of the story that Joker did do it, the Gordon's don't have to talk about it.

You don't get what I'm saying. This is a comic book. We don't have to see the Gordons talking about it with other people to know if it's haunting them. Nine time out of ten, when a comic book character is haunted by something, they envision it in their minds, they think about it in thought balloons etc. How often does Batman remember his parents being killed in comparison to actually talking about it?

This has never been the case here. The only thing that haunts the Gordons from this ordeal is Barbara being shot. Why? Because that is all that happened. That is the tradegdy that happened. Gordon never succumbed to Joker's sick little games. It disturbed him, but he never went crazy.

When Joker shot and killed Gordon's wife, Gordon had Joker at gun point, and said "He's gone too far. He paralyzed my daughter. My little girl. Now he's just killed my Sarah. Too much. Too far". If Joker had raped her, you seriously think he wouldn't have mentioned that in his angry emotional state?

Here's the scan:

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying all this up in the air theorey that there was a rape. There's just nothing to support it, IMO. *Shrug*

 

[Crook]

I never heard of this until last year when someone said they thought Joker raped her. To this day I cannot fathom how anyone comes to this conclusion from reading the story. Or the plethora of stories that came after it when the Gordons reflect on their ordeal.

No one's concluding anything. It's simply a theory based on what little we saw (and what we didn't), plus Moore's words.

No, that's just twisted and cruel. That's literally stripping a man down to his bare skin in the cold and rain, like in the story, and torturing him with pics of his daughter naked, shot, and crippled. To push him towards insanity.

If Joker wanted to really push Gordon over the edge, he'd have told him he raped Barbara, or showed him pics of it. He was very determined to prove his point about one bad day driving a man insane. But he didn't mention it.

Joker doesn't do subtle.

But you're ignoring everything that wasn't subtle. Gunning Barbara down, stripping her, taking pictures of it, and plastering it on walls is anything but subtle. It's incredibly overt. He doesn't need to expand it from there, because it's conceivably enough to at least break a father's heart/mind. Joker dialed it up to a 9. Could he have gone for 10? Sure. But as I've already said, Gordon could've escalated the trauma himself with everything that was unknown.

You don't get what I'm saying. This is a comic book. We don't have to see the Gordons talking about it with other people to know if it's haunting them. Nine time out of ten, when a comic book character is haunted by something, they envision it in their minds, they think about it in thought balloons etc. How often does Batman remember his parents being killed in comparison to actually talking about it?

This has never been the case here. The only thing that haunts the Gordons from this ordeal is Barbara being shot. Why? Because that is all that happened. That is the tradegdy that happened. Gordon never succumbed to Joker's sick little games. It disturbed him, but he never went crazy.

The likelihood is that the writers simply chose to view the act as depicted, and didn't care/want to infer anything else. Hence no delving into the matter. I haven't kept up with the comics, but have there been instances where Gordon stops to reflect on that night? Does he actively think of what Joker did to her? Be it the gun, taking pics, etc?

When Joker shot and killed Gordon's wife, Gordon had Joker at gun point, and said "He's gone too far. He paralyzed my daughter. My little girl. Now he's just killed my Sarah. Too much. Too far". If Joker had raped her, you seriously think he wouldn't have mentioned that in his angry emotional state?

That's the thing, he *doesn't* know Joker went past the pics. At best, Gordon can only think he did. Why would you mention it if you don't know it's fact?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying all this up in the air theorey that there was a rape. There's just nothing to support it, IMO. *Shrug*

Moore. I'm paraphrasing here, but he took it out because he felt it was unnecessary to moving the story forward, and felt it was too explicit for the readers. He preferred to leave that to the imagination. Whether he still intended it to be canon or not, I guess, doesn't matter as a result of this.