The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 6

[The Morningstar]

Hulk lost his temper. That's what he does. Blonsky was like an annoying mosquito to Hulk. He swatted him.

 

[BigThor]

Don't worry, Hulk wasn't aware either. Blonsky jumping had nothing to do with Hulk's reaction because his jumps didn't indicate he was indestructible.

Hulk didn't care anymore because he was pushed beyond reason, which is possible even with regular humans.

And then everything calms down, nobody is attacking Hulk anymore, Blonsky is there standing alone, not jumping or anything... and that's when Hulk decided to smash him against a tree.

That doesn't take away everything that just happened a few seconds before, no one's able to calm down that fast the anger was still very much there.

 

[C. Lee]

In other words, you don't have one piece of evidence, as I do.

In the best of cases, another poster backs you up, again, with no evidence but another opinion of what might or might not has been said in the 70's.

That makes this an official waste of time; I cannot be the only one presenting evidence you know.

I just walked in here....so haven't looked for any "evidence"....just have my memories of the 70's. Not only was the name "Bruce" considered unmasculine, it was used by most comics at the time in conjucture with gay jokes. There were several articles at the time saying that they changed Banner's first name because of the gay connection at the time.

 

[BigThor]

Joss Whedon discusses the "power levels" of The Avengers

Whedon: "I had to find a way to service all the characters, to figure out why they're in the room in the first place. My biggest concern was that if I didn't pay enough attention to minutiae then the film would become generic in its concepts and visuals. Or that I'd be so concentrated on those things, I'd look around and the film wouldn't be about anything." On the action scenes and what Whedon terms "the hierarchy of power": Whedon: "If this guy hits someone, he falls down. If this guy hits someone, he flies backwards. Its very complicated.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

I just walked in here....so haven't looked for any "evidence"....just have my memories of the 70's. Not only was the name "Bruce" considered unmasculine, it was used by most comics at the time in conjucture with gay jokes. There were several articles at the time saying that they changed Banner's first name because of the gay connection at the time.

Agreed on all accounts. When I was in high school (mid-80s) the name Bruce was still associated with homosexuality. Just one of those odd things in American culture.

 

[El Payaso]

I just walked in here....so haven't looked for any "evidence"....just have my memories of the 70's. Not only was the name "Bruce" considered unmasculine, it was used by most comics at the time in conjucture with gay jokes. There were several articles at the time saying that they changed Banner's first name because of the gay connection at the time.

Lou Ferrigno (in a 2006 bio-book) said so and Stan Lee (in an interview with Kevin Smith, 2002) said so (I mean, I myself can produce evidence of that but when I ask for it from someone who defends that posture they can't find anything).

But both Lee and Ferrigno said the executives were the ones who said that Bruce was not being masculine enough. All I said was that the man who made the decision, Kenneth Johnson, didn't do it because of that.

Hulk lost his temper. That's what he does. Blonsky was like an annoying mosquito to Hulk. He swatted him.

That's what happened. He killed him because he was being annoying. Not because Hulk was about to die and had to defend his life.

Now killing people is not what Hulk does. It shouldn't be.

 

[Kirmit]

As to why Hulk kicked Blonsky, yes Blonsky had been winding him up and Hulk isn't thick, he understands people, Blonsky said 'Is that it? Is that all you've got?' That's the sort of challenge Hulk can't turn down.

 

[sabetoonth]

As to why Hulk kicked Blonsky, yes Blonsky had been winding him up and Hulk isn't thick, he understands people, Blonsky said 'Is that it? Is that all you've got?' That's the sort of challenge Hulk can't turn down.

That's exactly what happened

 

[wobbly]

Lou Ferrigno (in a 2006 bio-book) said so and Stan Lee (in an interview with Kevin Smith, 2002) said so (I mean, I myself can produce evidence of that but when I ask for it from someone who defends that posture they can't find anything).

Oh no you don't: You were asking me to provide proof of the articles I read from back in the 1970's when the show first aired, not for evidence of Lee and Ferrigno's accounts that you already know full well about.

You made it damn clear my memory alone was not good enough for you, and even inferred the articles did not exist at all.

So don't go twisting things now that someone else has backed me up on that score.

But both Lee and Ferrigno said the executives were the ones who said that Bruce was not being masculine enough. All I said was that the man who made the decision, Kenneth Johnson, didn't do it because of that.

So you have Lee & Ferrigno both saying the same thing, but the executives publicised fears had NO bearing on KJ's decision. It was just a happy co-incidence his name change happened to address exactly what the executives had expressed concerns about. And it took him 25 years to publicly refute the 'myth' to boot.

Ok then.

 

[wobbly]

I just walked in here....so haven't looked for any "evidence"....just have my memories of the 70's. Not only was the name "Bruce" considered unmasculine, it was used by most comics at the time in conjucture with gay jokes. There were several articles at the time saying that they changed Banner's first name because of the gay connection at the time.

Thank you C. Lee

 

[warcam]

Thank you C. Lee

Yes, thanks C. Lee. Nice to hear from another "old timer". Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, because there could be 20 of us on here talking about the same article, and 'Old El Paso' or whatever his name is would still demand physical proof. I'm just disappointed that 'Wobbly' continues to indulge him. I try to adhere to a strict "no troll feeding" rule, but I'll give him a nibble...

It would be like if 'Old El Paso' said:
"My parents took me to Disney World when I was a lad"
and someone says: "Do you have pictures?"
and he says "Well, no. We lost our camera."
"Okay, did you save your ticket stubs as a souvenir?"
"Well, no. That was over 30 years ago."
"Well, then. I don't believe you were actually there."

Bottom line is: Wobbly and myself read an article/interview, presumably from the same magazine, in the late 70's discussing, among other things, the name change. It was determined the name Bruce was not deemed "masculine enough", so it was changed to David. Even at the time I thought "Mmm, okay...but what about Bruce Wayne?" I've saved (and sold $$$ t many things from my childhood, but this particular magazine was not one of them. We saw it. He doesn't believe us. I don't give a s**t.

Now, let's talk about The Hulk in The Avengers.

How many transformations do you think we'll see? I say two (Helicarrier after Banner & Widow crash through the window, and the final battle).
Also, what does everyone think will be Hulk's 1st word? I'll go out on a limb and say, after he transforms for the 1st time in The Helicarrier, he looks over at BW and says "run". Thoughts?

 

[El Payaso]

Oh no you don't: You were asking me to provide proof of the articles I read from back in the 1970's when the show first aired, not for evidence of Lee and Ferrigno's accounts that you already know full well about.

You made it damn clear my memory alone was not good enough for you, and even inferred the articles did not exist at all.

So don't go twisting things now that someone else has backed me up on that score.

So you have Lee & Ferrigno both saying the same thing, but the executives publicised fears had NO bearing on KJ's decision. It was just a happy co-incidence his name change happened to address exactly what the executives had expressed concerns about. And it took him 25 years to publicly refute the 'myth' to boot.

Ok then.

I was just asking for any kind of evidence that said that Ken Johnson changed the name because it sounded gay and not, as he said himself, he wanted to avboid comic booky alliteration. ARticles/videos, nobody cares what decade it's from.

I happen to have found videos to prove my points, and quite easily mind you. So I think you've used more time to remember articles you read than actually googled some interview to back yourself up.

It was all about doing a very little research:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek2-fcGT2YA

STAN LEE ON THE BRUCE-TO-DAVID CHANGE:

"When I found out they were changing he name from Bruce Banner to David Banner I asked the logical question, why are you doing that? His name's supposed to be Bruce. And some genius at the network said, oh no, Stan. Bruce makes some sound hoimosexual. It sounds gay. I said there's Bruyce Jenner, the athletic decathlon champ, there's Bruce... well I don't think I knew Bruce Willis at the time, but I mention... he did a face... nah nah, we don't like the sound of Bruce. So you can't change his name he has been David Banne... I mean, he's been Bruce Banner for all these years. But... they were the network and they were in charge."

He's talking about some executive, like he did in the Kevin Smith interview.

But, what did he think of Kenneth Johnsons? Maybe it was Johnson that "genius at the network"?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEQki8T3fr0

STAN LEE ON KENNETH JOHNSON AND HULK SPEAKING:

"Kenneth Johnson, who I think did a brilliant job and I got quite friendly durting the course of it. He was so smart. He took a character which in live action TV might have been unbearably foolish-looking, with nonsensical stories, and he made it as palatable for grown-ups as for kids, maybe more so."

"In the comic books I had him talking, because a pannel without any dialogue baloons - and I couldn't give him thought baloons cuz he was too dumb - it can get a little uninteresting. When we started the TV show, Ken said to me, you know Stan I don't think the Hulk should talk. The minute I said it I knew he was right. Because I had, in the beginning, I had the Hulk talking like this, Hulk crash! Hulk get him! you know, I could get away with it in a comic, but would have sounded so silly if he spoke that way in a TV show. So by having him not talk at all I think he made it more like a real monster, more frightening than that silly pidgeon dialogue."

"Everything about that show was good."


My conclusion is that Stan Lee had great respect for Ken Johnson. It looks really unlikely it was Ken who told Stan the gay sounding condityion of the name 'Bruce.' And I've already shown Johnson's version fo the story, which happens to be consistent with everything else in the TV series: to take it away from comic books.

 

[wobbly]

Yes, thanks C. Lee. Nice to hear from another "old timer". Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, because there could be 20 of us on here talking about the same article, and 'Old El Paso' or whatever his name is would still demand physical proof. I'm just disappointed that 'Wobbly' continues to indulge him

Yup, I'm not gonna indulge them further. Points have been made, an entire post of mine rudely ignored in favor of a false summary "in other words" judgement from the guy.. But no matter. Our recollections have been corroborated since, so enough's enough.

Now, let's talk about The Hulk in The Avengers.

How many transformations do you think we'll see? I say two (Helicarrier after Banner & Widow crash through the window, and the final battle).
Also, what does everyone think will be Hulk's 1st word? I'll go out on a limb and say, after he transforms for the 1st time in The Helicarrier, he looks over at BW and says "run". Thoughts?

That would work well for me, not least for having him talking (clearly, not muffled as in TIH) right from the go

And I figure 2 Hulk-outs as well. Hellicarrier which will involve his fight with Thor, and the finale.

 

[Gamma Burst]

I too think we'll see two transformations.

 

[warcam]

I too think we'll see two transformations.

Just like the old TV show. t:

FWIW, I do appreciate 'El Payaso' finding a link to that Stan Lee interview corroborating what we read all those years ago. I just assumed KJ made that decision, as he did regarding the Hulk not speaking. Didn't KJ also toy with the idea of making the Hulk red? Because it was associated with anger?

 

[terry78]

That whole thing was Blonsky being a dick. Hulk had no intention of continuing the fight except for just snarling at him to back off until Blonksy mouthed off basically. Hulk is a creature of ego. You insult him, treat him like a moron, that pisses him off just as much as attacking him physically.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Just like the old TV show. t:

FWIW, I do appreciate 'El Payaso' finding a link to that Stan Lee interview corroborating what we read all those years ago. I just assumed KJ made that decision, as he did regarding the Hulk not speaking. Didn't KJ also toy with the idea of making the Hulk red? Because it was associated with anger?

Yeah, indeed.t:

 

[LOBO3315a]

Plus, it was pretty evident that Blonski wasn't a typical human. He challenged Hulk to show him what he had. It wasn't Hulk's fault that Blonski didn't manage to dodge that kick, he had managed to stay ahead of Hulk for several minutes just before that. He showed Blonski that he could move fast too.

 

[El Payaso]

But no matter. Our recollections have been corroborated

You're welcome.

Just like the old TV show. t:

FWIW, I do appreciate 'El Payaso' finding a link to that Stan Lee interview corroborating what we read all those years ago. I just assumed KJ made that decision, as he did regarding the Hulk not speaking. Didn't KJ also toy with the idea of making the Hulk red? Because it was associated with anger?

I appreciate your words and also the fact that you get my name right this time.

About the "red Hulk" thing, that's true.

According to Johnson himself he did a little more than 'toying' with the concept, he was like determined. Much as Nolan does today, Johnson was trying to justify and understand the character from scratch. You know, why this, why that. So he thought that green was universally attached to jealousy or envy and made no sense for a raging creature. He told so to Stan Lee himself and told him red was the logic color for the character. Then Johnsons asked Lee why did he make the Hulk precisely green. And Lee told him that it was just a random decision after color gray was unable to be properly done in the printing machine. That did but encourage Johnson in his attempt to make him red, since, you know, the green color was just a toughtless decision. In the end, just like Stan Lee was told nah, the name stays David and that's it, Johnson was told, nah, the color stays green, period.

Johnson himself said "That was a fight I couldn't win."

I understand Johnson but green at that point was essential in the visual identity of the monster so even when logic had little to do with it, changing it would have been going too far.

 

[BigThor]

That whole thing was Blonsky being a dick. Hulk had no intention of continuing the fight except for just snarling at him to back off until Blonksy mouthed off basically. Hulk is a creature of ego. You insult him, treat him like a moron, that pisses him off just as much as attacking him physically.

Exactly

 

[Obi-Ron]

Here is a page from the 1979's Mad Magazine Hulk spoof "The Incredible Bulk." Note the dialogue in the last panel.

LINK

It doesn't really prove anything, though, other than it was something people had talked about when the show was being aired.

 

[wobbly]

You're welcome.

 

[wobbly]

Here is a page from the 1979's Mad Magazine Hulk spoof "The Incredible Bulk." Note the dialogue in the last panel.

LINK

It doesn't really prove anything, though, other than it was something people had talked about when the show was being aired.

I described that one before so that's a blast from the past for me. Like picking up an old comic I have not seen in decades

Thanks for posting it

 

[Obi-Ron]

Yeah, I picked up a lot of references in that story that I never "got" as a kid.

 

[Smashlilman]

Agreed on all accounts. When I was in high school (mid-80s) the name Bruce was still associated with homosexuality. Just one of those odd things in American culture.

I remember reading about how they accused Batman and Robin of being gay. Bruce Wayne.

Fredric Wertham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredric_Wertham#Seduction_of_the_Innocent_and_Senate_hearings