The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - - - - - - Part 18

[ironwez20]

If this doesn't happen now, then it never will

Have faith

 

[MahvelBaby!]

What a bummer if after all that hype this doesn't happen.

 

[Detective Conan]

The Mutants do make a complete superhero universe. All the MCU really needs to keep going after Phase 4 are the villains in the Fantastic Four rights package. Doom alone could extend the Black Panther and Doctor Strange series one film each beyond where they'd otherwise run out of ideas. The Avengers could finally fight Kang. And actually releasing a profitable FF movie would open up the Galactus and then Secret Wars stories.
However I don't think it would ever work out that way. If Roberts makes an offer the FOX shareholders prefer, he walks away with all of 20th Century FOX and would put out cheapie FF films when needed, out of personal spite for Disney.

This is true. Even if Roberts got Fox I just can’t see him playing ball with Marvel/Disney with those rights. Even though FF is tainted thanks to Fox’s repeated incompetence with the property Roberts like most CEO’s is rather stubborn and would still see potential value in the property since despite the disastrous failure of Fan4stic the previous Tim Story movies, while disliked, did make quite a bit of money(The first one was a genuine success, ROTSS underperformed but it was still profitable). My best guess as to what happens to Fantastic Four if/when Comcast gets them is that they’re either transferred to Universal where they get rebooted once again or a more slimed down version of Fox post-Comcast merger continues from where they left off and first does the Solo Doctor Doom movie and if that’s successful enough they’ll use that as a springboard for another proper FF film.

That or the Doom film ends up in limbo long enough that by the time they finally start working on it; it’ll already be too late as the rights are going to revert(basically the same way Daredevil came back to Marvel Studios). One thing is almost certain the FF rights will not revert back to Marvel Studios following a Comcast Merger with Fox. It’s complete conjecture to think otherwise sad to say.

 

[TheVileOne]

If this doesn't happen now, then it never will

Never is a long time dude.

 

[ironwez20]

Why is everyone so scared it will fall apart? It’s not over yet. We still got time.

 

[Marvel united]

I'll be 40 years old by the time it does and the MCU may look completely different

 

[Detective Conan]

What a bummer if after all that hype this doesn't happen.

It’ll be quite awkward seeing as this board already has speculation/idea threads about the MCU verisons Of FF and X-Men respectively. Imagine all those months of fancasting & speculation all flushed down the toilet if/when the deal goes south and the idea of FF and the Mutants being in the MCU is once again a pipedream like it was before the reports of Fox selling to Disney ever surfaced online.

Oh boy. One thing that will suck about the potential termination of the deal is that status quo that many fans resent will remain the same. It’s not just about film rights it’s also Marvel ceasing their petty embargoes on characters that Fox owns. It’s a well known fact Marvel de-priotisizes their characters they don’t own the film rights to in terms of promotional stuff like video games, merchandise, cartoons in favor of characters they do own, or have access to.

It’s frustrating as a fan not to see Fantastic Four being promoted in any Marvel posters along with the rest of their comic brethren. When Rocket Raccoon is being promoted more than The First Family than you have a problem. I’m tired of these characters being side-lined because of these rights disagreements with Fox.

I’m prepared to be disappointed when/if Comcast out-bids Disney but I will never lose hope!

 

[ADollarADay]

okay, Dollar, do I have to hand over a full bag of chocolate kisses from Hershey's or just the few stated for your votes....

lol haha

I actually have twice as more voting rights than I previously posted. I have 2 proxies one for FOX and one for FOXA. I am not a major shareholder by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't have an insignificant amount of money on FOX and FOXA either. My 12 year old self would vote for DIS merger right away just because I want good XMen movies. My adult self will wait and see what the offer from Roberts and co is. I want the best possible ROI on my capital.

Am I the only one who only just wants the FF to go back and would be perfectly content with Comcast having the X-Men?

While I don’t necessarily agree with the argument that having the X-Men be in a shared universe of superheroes would diminish the property’s message of prejudice and discrimination; I do worry that Marvel gaining access to them might possibly prompt them to stop giving lesser known properties time to shine. The FF is smaller and concertrated in terms of the characters so even if Marvel got access to them it wouldn’t preclude them from trying lesser known properties like The Eternals. With X-Men the property is almost a whole universe onto itself that you can spin countless franchises out of it which I think kind of fits better with another studio apart from Marvel to focus on them since I don’t think Marvel can do that as they already have access to thousands of other characters, and X-Men might take up some space IMO.

I know this sounds like sacrilege to most X-fans who want the Mutants back) but the X-verse is quite big enough to support its own universe independent from the MCU so I really don’t mind Fox/Comcast continuing to make X-Men flicks as long as the quality stays consistent(and they do a total reboot). It’s the Fantastic Four license I want Fox to lose since that needs the MCU IMO. The FF are a very important part of the Marvel Universe(they’re the ones who started all). Without them we wouldn’t even have the MCU. It’s fitting that the property that essentially started the Marvel Universe as we know it returns home.

The X-Men...not so much. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be nice to have the Mutants back but they’re not really important to me as the First Family are. Not to mention that even in the comics they’ve always felt one of the most isolated from the rest of the Marvel Universe.

The FF and their lore, on the other hand, bring so much more to the Marvel Universe(Silver Surfer, Galactus, Kang and the Super-Skrulls would be perfect for the Cosmic side of the MCU for Phase 4) than the Mutants. Feel free to disagree me but I guess I can confess to being biased since I’m primarily a Fantastic Four fan and not much into X-Men but that’s my stance on the matter. I would hope when the dust settles from all this Merger mess that the First Family’s film rights are with Marvel Studios regardless of who ends up purchasing Fox.

If Comcast wins cleanly, i.e. gets everything, then to bite off Rick Pitino, Fantastic Four ain't walking through that door.

Roberts and Iger hate each. It took over 60 years for Disney to regain the rights for Oswald the Lucky Rabbit from Universal....and that was before Comcast owned them. Not happening. If Comcast wins cleanly, then FF and X-Men will be rebooted and the license will be kept away forever.

Iger did not get to where he got by doing subpar deals. Roberts would be pleased with not paying 1.5B to Disney in exchange to giving up the FF rights. I'll even throw in ANH distribution rights. Iger ain't accepting that. Not today, not ever. I have a better chance of banging 5 Victoria Secret models on the same night than Roberts has of having the fortune of Iger accepting that in lieu of 1.5B in cash. All the Marvel rights Comcast + Fox would own + ANH + something else? Yeah sure.

 

[wobbly]

Why is everyone so scared it will fall apart? It’s not over yet. We still got time.

It's simply that Comcast could pose a threat that is a valid concern. It's not panic stations atm, but them getting involved at all is cause to put the champagne back on ice for the moment.

 

[wobbly]

lol haha

I actually have twice as more voting rights than I previously posted. I have 2 proxies one for FOX and one for FOXA. I am not a major shareholder by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't have an insignificant amount of money on FOX and FOXA either. My 12 year old self would vote for DIS merger right away just because I want good XMen movies. My adult self will wait and see what the offer from Roberts and co is. I want the best possible ROI on my capital.

If you vote for Comcast I hope your 12 year old self kicks your adult self's butt, lol

Seriously though, the Disney deal seems a good one and valuable long term. Would some more shorter term $$ really sway you to vote for Comcast?

I mean, if a Marvel fan would be willing to go for Comcast here that does have me very worried where other votes from non fans would go.

 

[Zarex]

This is true. Even if Roberts got Fox I just can’t see him playing ball with Marvel/Disney with those rights. Even though FF is tainted thanks to Fox’s repeated incompetence with the property Roberts like most CEO’s is rather stubborn and would still see potential value in the property since despite the disastrous failure of Fan4stic the previous Tim Story movies, while disliked, did make quite a bit of money(The first one was a genuine success, ROTSS underperformed but it was still profitable). My best guess as to what happens to Fantastic Four if/when Comcast gets them is that they’re either transferred to Universal where they get rebooted once again or a more slimed down version of Fox post-Comcast merger continues from where they left off and first does the Solo Doctor Doom movie and if that’s successful enough they’ll use that as a springboard for another proper FF film.

I wouldn't say the Story films made much money, if any. A $330M gross BO on a $100M budget is cutting it close after marketing costs are added. And we know ROTSS lost money since the series ended in a duology. Also, I doubt very much the rights can be transferred to Universal without the Mouse's approval.

Iger did not get to where he got by doing subpar deals. Roberts would be pleased with not paying 1.5B to Disney in exchange to giving up the FF rights. I'll even throw in ANH distribution rights. Iger ain't accepting that. Not today, not ever. I have a better chance of banging 5 Victoria Secret models on the same night than Roberts has of having the fortune of Iger accepting that in lieu of 1.5B in cash. All the Marvel rights Comcast + Fox would own + ANH + something else? Yeah sure.

Why would Roberts be involved in the transaction? The breakup fee was between Fox and Disney. Even if the deal goes belly up in July, Roberts won't be getting the keys to the kingdom until much later. If at all.

 

[MasterCat]

Oh boy. One thing that will suck about the potential termination of the deal is that status quo that many fans resent will remain the same. It’s not just about film rights it’s also Marvel ceasing their petty embargoes on characters that Fox owns. It’s a well known fact Marvel de-priotisizes their characters they don’t own the film rights to in terms of promotional stuff like video games, merchandise, cartoons in favor of characters they do own, or have access to.

Yeah, that's the real problem. The MCU is great without the X-Men, but there hasn't been an X-Men cartoon since the 2010-2011 anime and their video game representation has been spotty since 2014.

 

[MasterCat]

So I think here's what we're looking at creatively in the MCU, without vs. with the FOX rights. In both cases, I'm assuming Captain Marvel turns a profit.

2021
Spider-Man 3.3 tells the story of Peter balancing graduating high school with being hunted by Kraven and the Scorpion. It makes $390 million domestically. Sony renews the current agreement, looks forward to making billions when Spidey fights the Sinister Six in college.
Black Panther 2 is about T'Challa fighting M'Baku and Malice. It grosses the same as BP.
The Eternals makes $519 million worldwide, like Ant-Man. I hope you didn't spend $275 million making it!

2022
The Ant-Man trilogy wraps up with the third installment making as much money as the second.
Captain Marvel 2 flops with a weak script featuring a villain even comics nerds haven't heard of.
New franchise of the year is Nova.

2023-24
Black Panther 3 and Avengers 5 writers struggle to come up with compelling antagonists. Doctor Strange 3 is a success.

OR...
2022
Captain Marvel 2 tells a compelling story of Carol vs. Mystique and her daughter Rogue. It makes more than $820 million worldwide.
Nova is pushed back a year in favor of Doctor Doom. It makes at least $678 million (Doctor Strange money).

2023
Black Panther: Doom's Day makes $1.9 billion.
Doctor Strange 3 is a success.
Nova makes whatever it would have in 2022, adjusted for inflation.

X-Men makes more than $1 billion worldwide in 2024, Fantastic 4 is a success, Doctor Strange gets a fourth film co-starring Doctor Doom, the Avengers have compelling enemies for films 5 & 6 (Kang is 6, after giving time travel a rest for one installment) followed by Secret Wars...

 

[Kuwolski]

When Rocket Raccoon is being promoted more than The First Family than you have a problem. I’m tired of these characters being side-lined but these rights disagreements with Fox.

What's the problem? Rocket has been a breakout star.

No offense, but the FF were not selling that great anyways and slipping in popularity for years. There is no certainty that even at Marvel they'll be more popular then the GoTG cinematically going forward. I hope they are at least on par, but realistically it may be tough based on the last 20 years. A lot of people think they are too old fashioned to really work in today's more cynical setting. I don't agree with that, but the sentiment is there.

 

[MasterCat]

What's the problem? Rocket has been a breakout star.

No offense, but the FF were not selling that great anyways and slipping in popularity for years. I love the FF but there is no certainty that even at Marvel they'll be more popularthen the GoTG cinematically going forward.

And they don't even need to be as popular as the Guardians. So long as Doctor Doom gets a good introduction, Marvel Studios only needs Fantastic 4 to turn a profit to hugely benefit their universe. The FF sequel could be FF and Avengers vs. Galactus, leading to The Defenders with the Silver Surfer, Hulk, Doctor Strange and Valkyrie...

 

[DyfeddRex]

I'll be 40 years old by the time it does and the MCU may look completely different

Young. you still young, I feel my clock winding down, and need at least the 4 home soon, so I can see it before I'm gone. I hear there ain't no Netflix/good internet connections where I'm headed after this life.

 

[Kuwolski]

And they don't even need to be as popular as the Guardians. So long as Doctor Doom gets a good introduction, Marvel Studios only needs Fantastic 4 to turn a profit to hugely benefit their universe. The FF sequel could be FF and Avengers vs. Galactus, leading to The Defenders with the Silver Surfer, Hulk, Doctor Strange and Valkyrie...

I agree with all of this. What they bring overall is transformative for the MCU going forward.

 

[DyfeddRex]

So I think here's what we're looking at creatively in the MCU, without vs. with the FOX rights. In both cases, I'm assuming Captain Marvel turns a profit.

2021
Spider-Man 3.3 tells the story of Peter balancing graduating high school with being hunted by Kraven and the Scorpion. It makes $390 million domestically. Sony renews the current agreement, looks forward to making billions when Spidey fights the Sinister Six in college.
Black Panther 2 is about T'Challa fighting M'Baku and Malice. It grosses the same as BP.
The Eternals makes $519 million worldwide, like Ant-Man. I hope you didn't spend $275 million making it!

2022
The Ant-Man trilogy wraps up with the third installment making as much money as the second.
Captain Marvel 2 flops with a weak script featuring a villain even comics nerds haven't heard of.
New franchise of the year is Nova.

2023-24
Black Panther 3 and Avengers 5 writers struggle to come up with compelling antagonists. Doctor Strange 3 is a success.

OR...
2022
Captain Marvel 2 tells a compelling story of Carol vs. Mystique and her daughter Rogue. It makes more than $820 million worldwide.
Nova is pushed back a year in favor of Doctor Doom. It makes at least $678 million (Doctor Strange money).

2023
Black Panther: Doom's Day makes $1.9 billion.
Doctor Strange 3 is a success.
Nova makes whatever it would have in 2022, adjusted for inflation.

X-Men makes more than $1 billion worldwide in 2024, Fantastic 4 is a success, Doctor Strange gets a fourth film co-starring Doctor Doom, the Avengers have compelling enemies for films 5 & 6 (Kang is 6, after giving time travel a rest for one installment) followed by Secret Wars...

in the latter category...
November 2021, we finally get a Great FF movie to celebrate 60 years of Making Mine Marvel....

 

[Crimz]

What's the problem? Rocket has been a breakout star.

No offense, but the FF were not selling that great anyways and slipping in popularity for years. There is no certainty that even at Marvel they'll be more popular then the GoTG cinematically going forward. I hope they are at least on par, but realistically it may be tough based on the last 20 years. A lot of people think they are too old fashioned to really work in today's more cynical setting. I don't agree with that, but the sentiment is there.

I think a lot of that perception is on Marvel. Even before the sidelining due to Fant4stic Marvel treated the FF like 'your grampa's heroes'.

• Comic runs were too beholden to to the original Lee/Kirby run resulting in those books feeling tired and lacking growth.
  
• They rarely appeared in merchandise outside of comics. Look at the Marvel vs Capcom franchise which never had a FF member.
  
• The cartoons were bad to mediocre at best (when they had them).
  
• Toys and other things were scarce even before the ban on all FF products.

Marvel has not been putting their best foot forward in regards to the FF for years. Both fans and the company got complacent with the team and thought they would always be their in the background. The one good thing about Fant4stic is that it forced Marvel to reevaluate the franchise. After giving the team a break Marvel seems to be putting their all into slowly revitalizing the team which I doubt would have happened if not for that crappy film.

If the upcoming comics are good and Marvel gets back the rights, this may be the start of the Fantastic Four regaining the popularity they once had.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I used to be fine with the X-men remaining in Fox’s hands but then I realized I’m sick of Marvel movies coming from anywhere other than Marvel.

Marvel Studios is making the best Marvel movies, no doubt about it, and I want to see the X-men proper finally given the treatment they deserve. It’s nice when you occasionally get a Logan, but you also have to suffer through X-men Apocalypse and FFINO to get there and it just weakens the brand.

Everything we’re hearing about Dark Phoenix and New Mutants just confirms all the animosity I’ve felt for Fox; they have no real idea what they want, they just want what’s going to work in the moment instead of trusting the damn source material.

I pray that Disney ups the ante and ponies up some serious coin to outbid Comcast. It’s the best thing for th X-men and the FF.

Well said. The other studios are second-rate, hit or miss, and it just feels like they neither understand nor care about the characters.

 

[MasterCat]

The Fantastic 4 have the potential to sustain a longer series than any Marvel heroes but Spider-Man, the X-Men and maybe Iron Man. Captain Marvel will crash and burn as early as her second movie if Disney can't use Mystique and Rogue. GotG poach space villains other comics introduced in the '60s. The FF have...

1. origin/Doom
2. Galactus
3. Skrulls starring Super Skrull
4. Annihilus
5. Mole Man
6. The Puppet Master

 

[Marvel united]

We only have 4 days to find out. The news about Rupert is worrying

 

[Big Bang]

Sky’s Fate Will Be Settled Independently of Comcast-Disney’s Fox Battle (Analysis)

Good indicator of the order in which these things will play out. The big question is going to be if Disney will expend additional resources in a bidding war for Sky when Comcast may strike at the main deal for Fox. Disney's next move is contingent on which deal Sky will favor (likely Comcast's right now) and how the AT&T/Time Warner trial pans out. At least one of those questions will have some sort of definitive answer Tuesday @ ~4PM EDT.


The Comcast-Disney Battle Isn't Just Business—It's a Grand Human Drama

The article makes a good point. Rupert wants some kind of say in big media post deal and with Roberts owning all of the class B supervoting share that would never be with Comcast. The taxes for the all cash deal may also come into play as well. Whatever Roberts is planning, it is going to be interesting to see how things develop.

Roberts and Iger hate each. It took over 60 years for Disney to regain the rights for Oswald the Lucky Rabbit from Universal....and that was before Comcast owned them. Not happening. If Comcast wins cleanly, then FF and X-Men will be rebooted and the license will be kept away forever.

Getting Oswald back was a steal for Disney. No question about it.

The Iger/Roberts dynamic makes this whole situation all the more interesting. Roberts has never gotten over being spurned by Disney's board, and his actions in putting together his own "Disney" over the years reflect on that. I think that is playing a big part of his aggressiveness in trying to outflank Iger. That's not to say there isn't real strategy in the bits he is trying to secure for Comcast. Sky alone would be a major win for them. If utilized correctly Sky would provide a world of solutions for Comcast and how to proceed beyond a cordcutter world by taking to the skies. Literally.

Even if AT&T wins this round there is no question right now that the DOJ will appeal. That could lead to a deal break for TWX. All the while they've been waiting for the deal to clear, the market has begun to see the true value in TWX's assets. They'd be fools not to capitalize on that along with collecting the breakup fee from AT&T. It would also be certainly possible for AT&T & TWX to cancel the existing deal as it exists and rework a new smaller scale one whereby AT&T acquires fewer assets, which might appease the DOJ's demand for some kind of asset divestment. If that were to occur, that would likely be AT&T getting HBO and part of Turner in either some of the sports or CNN, but probably not both. Which ever pieces AT&T goes after, it will be those that are inline with AT&T's strategy for pulling in advertising revenue.

https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/att-time-warner-merger-ruling-1202831457/

A piece that was buried in the article:

Amy Yong, equity research analyst at Macquarie Capital, says that in the event of an AT&T loss, Comcast might target Time Warner assets. “A lot of people are going to look at them,” she says. “John Malone has talked a lot about the ‘free radicals,’ Lionsgate being one of them. All of these content assets that are out there are strategic to someone.”

It would be interesting if Comcast takes assets like Warner Bros., CN + production studios (including hanna-barbera) and combines them with Sky. Turner Europe combined with Sky for distribution and Dreamworks production could make for a pretty potent package for starters.

 

[Detective Conan]

Captain Marvel will crash and burn as early as her second movie if Disney can't use Mystique and Rogue.

How would a sequel to Captain Marvel 'bomb' if Marvel doesn't have access to the those characters?

 

[Tymminator]

Not to mention, neither character has anything to do with Carol’s origin or anything like that. Biggest thing for Rogue is when she took Carol’s powers, and if you don’t do that, you don’t need her really. She has ties to them, but she also has ties to other characters.

To do Rogue properly, it would be nice to have Carol, but to do Carol you really don’t need Rogue.