The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[Kahran Ramsus]

Has there been any news/rumors on that front recently?

I haven't heard anything for a while, but I haven't really been plugged in.

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[Docker2.0]

There were rumors of Fox buying WB. That would be interesting with them owning the DCEU and would they try and keep the Xmen if that's the case.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

There were rumors of Fox buying WB. That would be interesting with them owning the DCEU and would they try and keep the Xmen if that's the case.

Yeah, now that you say that, I remember that. My brain was telling me someone was trying to buy Fox, but I'm not sure if I was confusing it with Fox trying to buy WB.

Nothing really new in this article, but it's good to know that we're not the only ones keeping hope alive:

http://moviepilot.com/p/has-marvel-quietly-regained-fantastic-four-rights/4120020

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Another recent FF article:

http://www.cbr.com/10-reasons-marvel-now-needs-the-fantastic-four/

 

[Docker2.0]

Yeah, now that you say that, I remember that. My brain was telling me someone was trying to buy Fox, but I'm not sure if I was confusing it with Fox trying to by WB.

Nothing really new in this article, but it's good to know that we're not the only ones keeping hope alive:

http://moviepilot.com/p/has-marvel-quietly-regained-fantastic-four-rights/4120020

This article makes so much sense. It does seem odd that once Fox announced that Legion tv show that Marvel rearranged their movie schedule and now have an unknown movie coming out in 2020. According to Fiege, they have the next decade planned out so why is their a movie coming out in 4 years that is untitled? Also, the renaming of Infinity War from 1 and 2 to just part one with the second part being untitled......they can't show their hand right now. I believe they have those rights back but can't say anything about it right now. I believe once the 2nd Avenger's movie starts to film and photos start to leak, that's when they will have no choice but to announce it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

This article makes so much sense. It does seem odd that once Fox announced that Legion tv show that Marvel rearranged their movie schedule and now have an unknown movie coming out in 2020. According to Fiege, they have the next decade planned out so why is their a movie coming out in 4 years that is untitled? Also, the renaming of Infinity War from 1 and 2 to just part one with the second part being untitled......they can't show their hand right now. I believe they have those rights back but can't say anything about it right now. I believe once the 2nd Avenger's movie starts to film and photos start to leak, that's when they will have no choice but to announce it.

If you think about it, there are a lot of things that point to the possibility of a deal and only two things that point to there not being a deal.

The two things that point to there not being a deal are:

1. No official announcement yet.

2. A denial from both studios immediately following the Den of Geek story that "Fox traded the FF rights to Marvel for the rights to do the TV shows".

In the case of no announcement, that doesn't mean anything. If a deal did happen, there's nothing forcing anyone's hand to make an announcement and they cold announce it whenever they choose. Tomorrow or 3 years from now.

And as for the denial, that denial was very specific. If the deal was more complicated than reported, they could still deny the story and deal as it was reported. And it is possible there was no deal at the time of the denial but something was in the works and happened at some point between that report and now. And it's also possible the denial was BS. There's no law that requires studio reps to always tell the complete truth.

So a strong case can be made that a deal of some sort happened, but there isn't anything we can point to that indicates with any certainty a deal didn't happen at some point between August 2015 and now.

 

[Docker2.0]

DoG seemed 100% certain of their source that they stood 100% behind them until the end. I don't think they'd stake their reputation from just any source. Whoever their source was has to be in the know for them to risk legal liability for them to announce it. No way Disney caved to Fox by just giving them tv rights.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah, now that you say that, I remember that. My brain was telling me someone was trying to buy Fox, but I'm not sure if I was confusing it with Fox trying to buy WB.

Nothing really new in this article, but it's good to know that we're not the only ones keeping hope alive:

http://moviepilot.com/p/has-marvel-quietly-regained-fantastic-four-rights/4120020

Nothing but pure and rampant speculation.

 

[Zarex]

Nothing but pure and rampant speculation.

I am going to be truly stunned if you ever contribute anything to the conversation other than "You guys are wrong because reasons".

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Nothing but pure and rampant speculation.

What's wrong with that? Isn't that what SHH is all about?

If these forums were limited to the facts and nothing but the facts, they would begin and end with the news blurb.

But we take the information and we run with it. After we get a bit of news, we ask: "What does it mean? What broader implications does it lead to? How does it affect other films? etc. etc. etc. We offer our speculation and opinions on those details and that speculation leads to more speculation and more opinions.

The whole concept of these forums is we take a small amount of information and build on that. That's a fun, entertaining way to spend the long periods of time between films. That's why I check in and post here - not to get solid, undisputable information. I can get my information elsewhere, but I enjoy coming here to discuss that information.

These forums are built on opinions and speculation, not facts.

 

[Spiderine]

I don't know why you guys entertain Vile. He lives for the fight. Heck, his name is the VILE ONE for a reason. You can say 1+1=2 but he'd argue 2-0=2. Neither of you are wrong but it is what it is. He agrees with you guys but just can't say it straight out because it would ruin his image.

I see exactly what u talkin bout now. Lol

 

[TheVileOne]

What's wrong with that? Isn't that what SHH is all about?

If these forums were limited to the facts and nothing but the facts, they would begin and end with the news blurb.

But we take the information and we run with it. After we get a bit of news, we ask: "What does it mean? What broader implications does it lead to? How does it affect other films? etc. etc. etc. We offer our speculation and opinions on those details and that speculation leads to more speculation and more opinions.

The whole concept of these forums is we take a small amount of information and build on that. That's a fun, entertaining way to spend the long periods of time between films. That's why I check in and post here - not to get solid, undisputable information. I can get my information elsewhere, but I enjoy coming here to discuss that information.

These forums are built on opinions and speculation, not facts.

There's nothing to glean from that article. Nothing has changed with Fantastic Four and Marvel.

That article basically says there has to be something going on with Fantastic Four because of what Den of Geek reported, even though that report was already proven to be false. The FOX X-Men TV deals happened over a year ago now. If something was going on with Fantastic Four as a result of that, we would've heard about it by now.

I don't know why you guys entertain Vile. He lives for the fight. Heck, his name is the VILE ONE for a reason. You can say 1+1=2 but he'd argue 2-0=2. Neither of you are wrong but it is what it is. He agrees with you guys but just can't say it straight out because it would ruin his image.

I'm calling it like I see it as I always have for over 10 years. I'm the one that's saying 1+1=2. I'm not the one trying to get blood out of a stone. Here is what I don't agree with. That the deal and character property rights have already changed hands. Marvel's just keeping everything in their magic surprise box to surprise everyone at the next convention.

I ultimately believe the way to go is that everything will return to Marvel, Spider-Man included. I believe the way to go is Disney aggressively pursuing that outcome because they own Marvel, and they should have the film rights for everything. That includes everything that is still divvied up elsewhere. Whatever hold Universal still has on Hulk or who has what on Namor, all of that should go back to Marvel so they can control all of their characters as they see fit.

But there isn't some magic cure all bullet that Marvel is about to kamehameha us with for Fantastic Four right now. It ain't there. Those rights may not have value to Fox right now, but they still have value to Marvel and Disney. Everyone knows that if Marvel got those rights back they would probably do something with the characters at some point that would make the fans a lot happier. That is not something movie studios like allowing to happen.

 

[Zarex]

There's nothing to glean from that article. Nothing has changed with Fantastic Four and Marvel.

That article basically says there has to be something going on with Fantastic Four because of what Den of Geek reported, even though that report was already proven to be false. The FOX X-Men TV deals happened over a year ago now. If something was going on with Fantastic Four as a result of that, we would've heard about it by now.

Feel free to swallow every press release and spokesperson response provided by a major Hollywood Studio as fact. Those of us who heard FOX reps saying over and over again "Everything is fine!!" in regards to FFINO will continue to remain skeptical.

I'm calling it like I see it as I always have for over 10 years. I'm the one that's saying 1+1=2. I'm not the one trying to get blood out of a stone. Here is what I don't agree with. That the deal and character property rights have already changed hands. Marvel's just keeping everything in their magic surprise box to surprise everyone at the next convention.

I ultimately believe the way to go is that everything will return to Marvel, Spider-Man included. I believe the way to go is Disney aggressively pursuing that outcome because they own Marvel, and they should have the film rights for everything. That includes everything that is still divvied up elsewhere. Whatever hold Universal still has on Hulk or who has what on Namor, all of that should go back to Marvel so they can control all of their characters as they see fit.

But there isn't some magic cure all bullet that Marvel is about to kamehameha us with for Fantastic Four right now. It ain't there. Those rights may not have value to Fox right now, but they still have value to Marvel and Disney. Everyone knows that if Marvel got those rights back they would probably do something with the characters at some point that would make the fans a lot happier. That is not something movie studios like allowing to happen.

And the folks posting will continue to call it as they sees it - mainly that it is extremely unlikely that Disney - DISNEY!!!! - gave up additional character rights to a Marvel owned property in exchange for a minority stake in Legion. It is also extremely unlikely that the Mouse would have willingly added to the overcrowded slate for superhero TV programming, allowing a rival to gain further control over a Disney owned IP, without getting something of value in return.

Why did the X-Men TV negotiations take so long - reports were it took over a year to consummate - if this were a simple licensing agreement? Why would Disney give up its top negotiating tool for getting back its characters in exchange for a relatively small licensing fee? Why did FOX execs announce a deal was close just as FFINO was making its way into theaters? Why was FFINO 2 taken off the schedule? Why did Murdoch bury the franchise publicly if he was planning on keeping it?

If you want to believe that nothing else is going on, have fun. But don't belittle others for digging a bit deeper.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

There's nothing to glean from that article. Nothing has changed with Fantastic Four and Marvel.

Which is why I said:

Nothing really new in this article, but it's good to know that we're not the only ones keeping hope alive:

http://moviepilot.com/p/has-marvel-quietly-regained-fantastic-four-rights/4120020

When I posted it.

 

[Chris B]

I think TheVileOne is likely right about Marvel not getting the FF back through the X-Men TV deal. But that doesn't mean the Marvel wont get them back sooner rather than latter.

 

[TheVileOne]

And the folks posting will continue to call it as they sees it - mainly that it is extremely unlikely that Disney - DISNEY!!!! - gave up additional character rights to a Marvel owned property in exchange for a minority stake in Legion. It is also extremely unlikely that the Mouse would have willingly added to the overcrowded slate for superhero TV programming, allowing a rival to gain further control over a Disney owned IP, without getting something of value in return.

How do you know it's a minority stake? Did you read the contract?

Why did the X-Men TV negotiations take so long - reports were it took over a year to consummate - if this were a simple licensing agreement? Why would Disney give up its top negotiating tool for getting back its characters in exchange for a relatively small licensing fee? Why did FOX execs announce a deal was close just as FFINO was making its way into theaters? Why was FFINO 2 taken off the schedule? Why did Murdoch bury the franchise publicly if he was planning on keeping it?

If you want to believe that nothing else is going on, have fun. But don't belittle others for digging a bit deeper.

Negotiations take time. There's no evidence Fantastic Four had anything to do with it.

 

[Zarex]

How do you know it's a minority stake? Did you read the contract?

I read the Legion announcement on the FOX website, which listed FX AND FX Productions before Marvel Entertainment and the FOX Execs before their counterparts at Marvel. The announcement also confirmed that FX was handling the physical production. I took the wild leap that the bulk of the profits on a FOX production airing on a FOX network would go to FOX.

Negotiations take time. There's no evidence Fantastic Four had anything to do with it.

Over a frickin' year of negotiations that culminated after FFINO left theaters. And no one at Disney thought to ask for characters like Doom, the Surfer and Galactus, even though the Mouse tried to acquire them during the Daredevil extension negotiation. That's a deal Avi Arad would have laughed at back in the 1990s.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I'm still happy that deal fell through, even moreso given how great the Netflix show is. Give me Daredevil over Fantastic Four anyday.

 

[wobbly]

At this time none of us know the score, but we can speculate based on what we do know:

1) FFINO obviously bombed badly. Even the Dark Lord Murdock cited FFINO's abysmal failure.

2) This leaves the franchise is a very bad place in Fox's hands. Sequel? No-one wants one. Reboot again in 7/8 years? Stranger things have happened, but neither seems like a sensible business move at all and another go would be hard to justify to shareholders. Going cheap won't cut it, to recover the franchise while at Fox it's all-in or fold.

3) Disney, who were engaged in a barely concealed war with Fox not so long ago (backed up by FF and X-Men characters being removed from merchandise made from art that originally included them), give approval to Fox for an X-Verse extension into TV. It seems more likely than not that Legion won't be the only X-verse tv show if it does well.

4) Ike Perlmutter, who certainly was hostile towards Fox, is no longer in charge of Marvel Studios. Feige, who has worked with Fox in the past on their marvel movies and has working relationships with people there, reports to Disney studios chief Alan Horn now. Ike still holds control over Marvel's TV shows and the comics.

So now we go into speculation...Why did Disney grant Fox TV rights? For some money? Disney are not desperate for that, so a cash incentive on it's own seems unlikely. As such it is not unreasonable to consider that Fox had to give something more for that deal.

That's not to say the FF is the only incentive Fox could offer the Mouse (or the TV show is the only bargaining chip the mouse can play with): Fox still hold eternal distribution rights for Star Wars IV. Not worth a great deal to Fox post 2020 when they lose all the others (12356), but certainly something Disney would rather have than not have for future collector sets they can cash in on. On Disney's end they can offer to re-enable merchandise for anything Fox makes with their characters (something that has been cut down to limited collectables rather than mass market toys/games since Origins).

So as things stand, unless there is a dramatic change in the studios respective circumstances, we can at least whittle down the possibilities.

In no particular order of likelihood, for me these are:

1) Fox have agreed to let Star Wars IV distribution rights to revert with the others 2020, giving Disney complete future distribution control over all the Star Wars films.

2) Fox gave up the FF rights in return for the TV deal. As an extra incentive for Fox Marvel could agree to re-instate movie and tv show tie in merchandise.

3) Fox have (or will ) agree to a shared deal for the FF ala Sony's with Spider-Man. X-Men stay as is.

4) No deal at all beyond Disney having a cut of profits from the TV shows.

5) If 4 is the case, then Fox try again with another FF film before the deadline elapses.

6) If 4 is the case, Fox fumble about for the next 7 years or so, cannot get a reboot greenlit and the rights elapse (the longer they leave it the less likely they'd be able to wrangle option 3).

7) Now this I have placed last, as while not impossible, it would be a huge headache for them to sort out and just seems very unlikely all round: Moving forward post Jackman's last stand as Wolverine, Fox agree to a fully shared co-operation on future Marvel based films (ala Spider-Man).

I think the outcome has to be one of the above, or some variation/combination of them. I can't think of any other possible scenarios as things stand at this time.

I am hoping for 2 personally. Will have to wait and see though, as ever.

 

[TheVileOne]

I read the Legion announcement on the FOX website, which listed FX AND FX Productions before Marvel Entertainment and the FOX Execs before their counterparts at Marvel. The announcement also confirmed that FX was handling the physical production. I took the wild leap that the bulk of the profits on a FOX production airing on a FOX network would go to FOX.

It's still a leap.

Over a frickin' year of negotiations that culminated after FFINO left theaters. And no one at Disney thought to ask for characters like Doom, the Surfer and Galactus, even though the Mouse tried to acquire them during the Daredevil extension negotiation. That's a deal Avi Arad would have laughed at back in the 1990s.

That was a deal for borrowing the film rights of other characters in exchange for an extension on the rights to Daredevil. There's no evidence Fox was willing to exchange film rights for Fantastic Four for X-men TV rights. Film and TV deals are run separately.

You're assuming that basically Fox was so desperate for TV rights they were willing to try to trade Fantastic Four for the X-men TV rights just because the movie had just bombed. There's no evidence to prove this. There's no evidence that just because it's Disney they had the juice to get the FF FILM rights back because they had X-Men TV rights Fox wanted. They are separate deals.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

There's no evidence to prove this.

You demand a high level of facts and proof that the status of the rights has changed, but you have no facts that "prove" the status of the rights hasn't changed.

None of us know the status of the rights at this moment. That status is ambiguous. Some have offered a combination of facts and circumstances that have led them to believe the status of the rights has changed and that case is as strong or stronger than the case for the rights remaining static.

The status of the Fantastic Four rights may have changed since the disastrous release of Fant4stic.

That bolded statement is absolutely true and there are no firm facts available to dispute it.

As I've mentioned there are only two bits of information to dispute it and neither of them are very solid.

1. Marvel and Fox said the Den of Geek article wasn't true.

Okay. What does that mean? Den of Geek reported: "According to our source, Fox were given the TV rights for X-Men in exchange for Fantastic Four." If we take the studios at their word (and that, in itself, requires a substantial leap of faith), all they are saying is that the rights weren't traded straight-up as reported. Neither studio ever denied a Sony-type deal or an infinite number of other possibilities that weren't as simple the rights being traded one for one at that moment as it was reported.

The only other thing we have to go on is:

2. There has not been an announcement yet.

But there is no need for an announcement yet. Even if there has been a deal, use of FF characters won't likely happen for many years. If I were Marvel or Fox management, I would want to hold off on the announcement until closer to time. I would want to get some positive buzz and energy from the announcement that would translate to higher box-office numbers. Announcing now that FF characters will appear 4 years from now will not offer any value. By the time the characters are used, it will be old news. In the case of the Sony announcement, it was done shortly before filming was to commence on Spidey's scenes in Civil War.

Looking at the facts and evidence, I can't say with any certainty what the current status of the rights are.

It's up to each individual to decide for themselves what is true based on what we have known or seen, but there is absolutely no proof that the status of the rights has not changed.

 

[AlluAllu]

Didn't James Gunn say a while back that Marvel did not get the FF back yet? He has been very forthcoming about things behind the scenes.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Didn't James Gunn say a while back that Marvel did not get the FF back yet? He has been very forthcoming about things behind the scenes.

Yes. That's another good piece of information to include in our collection.

In April 2016, he said: "I probably wouldn’t add Ben Grimm to the Guardians team even if they were a part of the MCU. And of course I would love the FF to be a part of the MCU…Fox owns so many great villains and cosmic characters I would love to play around with including Annihilus — and I think they own Kang."

 

[Zarex]

That was a deal for borrowing the film rights of other characters in exchange for an extension on the rights to Daredevil. There's no evidence Fox was willing to exchange film rights for Fantastic Four for X-men TV rights. Film and TV deals are run separately.

There's no question deals across segments of a company can be difficult. Like Marvel Entertainment trading the cinematic licensing fee to an arachnid themed superhero in exchange for Disney Consumer Products controlling the merchandising rights to said character. Or, to get even more crazy, ESPN releasing a veteran sports announcer from his contract in exchange for Disney Animation controlling rights to an old timey cartoon rabbit.

You're assuming that basically Fox was so desperate for TV rights they were willing to try to trade Fantastic Four for the X-men TV rights just because the movie had just bombed. There's no evidence to prove this. There's no evidence that just because it's Disney they had the juice to get the FF FILM rights back because they had X-Men TV rights Fox wanted. They are separate deals.

Desperate? Who said anything about desperation? FOX was likely motivated by WB earning $1M per episode from Netflix for the Gotham streaming fees and wanted in on the action. They had an asset on hand that had zero value to FOX which also happened to be one the TV rights holder, Disney/Marvel, coveted.

But since you brought up the word, let's flip it. Why would Disney be so desperate to get additional TV licensing fees on top of the eleventy billion or so programs they have in production that they would relinquish exclusive control over Marvel branded television programming?

Why wouldn't Disney even bother to ask for early release of the FF live action rights in exchange when there are numerous reports that they had requested at least some of those rights multiple times in the past?

Why was Disney so desperate to make this deal that they would concede the one bargaining tool for getting back the live action rights to their characters, which have proven to be extremely lucrative on both the big and small screen?

Why didn't Disney execs walk out of the negotiating room when FOX refused to put the FF rights on the table? Why would FOX cling to a useless property like grim death?

What was the "juice" that FOX used to get Disney/Marvel to cut a TV deal after seven years of Disney disinvestment in the X-Men family of characters?

 

[wobbly]

Didn't James Gunn say a while back that Marvel did not get the FF back yet? He has been very forthcoming about things behind the scenes.

With all due respect to Gunn, he wouldn't be in the loop for these things: Ie: He'd be told who he can and can't use for the film he is currently working on or planning for the future, but would not be privy to any ongoing negotiations or changes being made beyond the film he is working on at the time.

These contracts, the t&c's, reversion deadlines, etc, are very much handled on a 'need to know' basis it seems. Kinberg for example was utterly oblivious to the fact Fox cannot do animated shows, nor even TV shows when he first said they would be doing that (this was before the deal was actually done). He and Mark Millar were was also ignorant about Fox being able to do crossovers with FF and X-Men: Seperate IP's, separate contracts, etc (you don't automatically get to mash them them up). Both back tracked shortly after suggesting they could.

Even Feige has been guarded in comments about these things, with reversions only being confirmed some time after the fact.

I suspect the NDA's on the contracts carry heavy penalties should either party breach them, so both play it very close to their respective chests.