Dark Phoenix The Simon Kinberg Thread - Director, Writer & Producer of Dark Phoenix

[Frankeh]

Hmmm. Fant4stic outcome was Josh Trank's responsibility as the director. Trank created his own problems with his behavior on set. He was brought onto the project in 2012. By that time there was already a different producer attached and a different screenwriter. When Trank came on, there was another screenwriter hired. Then another, along with another producer. Kinberg didn't come on until late 2013. And was a co-writer as well as producer along with several other producers on that film....but for some reason you seem to think Kinberg was the main driving force behind everything.

You're right, he didn't hire him, but he also went on record defending the script decisions, and he has NOT directly blamed Trank for it (he even said he would work AGAIN with him). He was every day on set as producer. He was far from hands off. So you drone on and on about collaborative process but you conspicuosly only blame other people for the movies Kinberg has been involved in?

That doesn't mean he is the sole creator of all the ideas that appeared in the script.

But it does mean he had to create something coherent out of them. He didn't.

 

[Cktopl33]

I'm not misunderstanding anything. You cannot say he had only a passing influence on the comic book films he's written. Heck, by all accounts he even ghost-directed a good amount of both Fant4stic & Apocalypse. Writers provide the backbone from which a film is constructed, and to me are the single most important component of filmmaking. Good directors can do a lot with a mediocre script, but they can't fix one that is fundamentally banal and lifeless.

I've liked plenty of films by both Bryan Singer & Matthew Vaughn, but have not enjoyed a single film that Simon Kinberg has written the script for. Either he's one of the unluckiest screenwriters in the business and keeps getting assigned to directors that tamper with & dilute his vision, or he's simply a journeyman talent who keeps getting work because he's reliable and pleasant to work with. Granted, he hasn't worked with the best of directors, but his work up to now hasn't exactly been phenomenal.

Personally I'm concerned that pure, unadulterated Kinberg will be far worse than filtered Kinberg (though I'm not sure how Dark Phoenix could manage to be worse than Apocalypse or Fant4stic; if it is than Kinberg deserves some kind of award for being that creative).

I would love to be proven wrong and be blown away by how great Dark Phoenix is (I'd even be amazed if it was simply okay/middling, like Homecoming or Thor), but my gut tells me that it's unlikely. Even the film of his that critics and fans seem to love (DoFP) I feel has significant and substantive problems. Having seen several of his movies, there's a definite trend and style to his writing that shines through even with different directors, so I think it's safe to say I'm not a fan of his.

You don't seem to understand a scriptwriter's job in this particular scenario. Kinberg isn't writing a script from scratch and then selling it to a studio. He doesn't have full control over the entirety of the script in that sense. The studio green-lights the movie, he writes the script in collaboration with whoever is directing and/or other story teams (or from a previous idea of an earlier already written script from a prior team), the script gets filtered by many people within the studio and several ideas are interjected. You don't even want to open the can of worms on how its decided who get writers credit by the Writers Guild of America.

Directors are the backbone of a film because they control the outcome of a script and decide script changes (aside from higher ups). Writers do a lot for a film....in the earliest stages where they have more control. After that, more control over a script belong to others higher up in the studio system and financiers. That's the hard part people seem not to grasp about screenwriting in Hollywood. It's the reason WHY Kinberg wanted to direct his own movie.

Remember, Kinberg has only been the sole scriptwriter for two films in his career while having to share co-writer credits with others. They're not really "his" movies. These are not scripts written from scratch and bought. Dark Phoenix can definitively be called his movie because he's directing his own script. And I don't believe the rumors he ghost directed, rather I've heard the opposite from set crew.

 

[Frankeh]

Directors are the backbone of a film because they control the outcome of a script and decide script changes (aside from higher ups).

So then finally we can give credit to SINGER for DOFP and not Kinberg.

 

[Cktopl33]

You're right, he didn't hire him, but he also went on record defending the script decisions, and he has NOT directly blamed Trank for it (he even said he would work AGAIN with him). He was every day on set as producer. He was far from hands off. So you drone on and on about collaborative process but you conspicuosly only blame other people for the movies Kinberg has been involved in?

But it does mean he had to create something coherent out of them. He didn't.

No producer or director is going to officially blame someone because they could lose their job. That doesn't mean kinberg isn't blameless since he was involved in the creation of the film. But that doesn't make it a Kinberg film. He's not the director. And he wasn't uncritical of the movie:

“The reality is, we make movies and not every one is going to be great. You put as much effort into the ones that are bad as you do the ones that are good. And that one – for lots of different reasons, lots and lots of different reasons – just wasn’t the right iteration of a Fantastic Four story.”

 

[Cktopl33]

So then finally we can give credit to SINGER for DOFP and not Kinberg.

Yes, the outcome of the movie was from Singer's vision. I don't believe Kinberg directed DOFP. I liked some of Singer's ideas like the quicksilver sequence. His X2's Nightcrawler was similar. But DOFP wasn't really an action driven film and I don't like Singer's direction of action in many of his X-men movies. I don't like his over-reliance on wolverine. And I hated his design aesthetic for the team costumes in his x-men films, his habit to focus on some of the characters while pushing others to the back which started with the first x-men movie. Other ideas like how he chose to have storm's hair changed by Apocalypse. Things like that. It's the reason why I want new direction this time. At least Kinberg is familiar with the source material, unlike all the previous directors of these x-men movies. I heard test-screening saying good things about Dark Phoenix, so we'll see whether we agree when the film is released.

 

[Elayis]

You don't seem to understand a scriptwriter's job in this particular scenario. Kinberg isn't writing a script from scratch and then selling it to a studio. He doesn't have full control over the entirety of the script in that sense. The studio green-lights the movie, he writes the script in collaboration with whoever is directing and/or other story teams (or from a previous idea of an earlier already written script from a prior team), the script gets filtered by many people within the studio and several ideas are interjected. You don't even want to open the can of worms on how its decided who get writers credit by the Writers Guild of America.

Directors are the backbone of a film because they control the outcome of a script and decide script changes (aside from higher ups). Writers do a lot for a film....in the earliest stages where they have more control. After that, more control over a script belong to others higher up in the studio system and financiers. That's the hard part people seem not to grasp about screenwriting in Hollywood. It's the reason WHY Kinberg wanted to direct his own movie.

Remember, Kinberg has only been the sole scriptwriter for two films in his career while having to share co-writer credits with others. They're not really "his" movies. These are not scripts written from scratch and bought. Dark Phoenix can definitively be called his movie because he's directing his own script. And I don't believe the rumors he ghost directed, rather I've heard the opposite from set crew.

Along with writing Jumper, This Means War, Days of Future Past, Fant4stic and Apocalypse, Kinberg also produced those movies. So unlike many MCU films where the writers are simply hired guns carrying out the will of the studio, Kinberg was one of the driving forces behind those films. I highly doubt he would continue to work on these movies if he wasn't at least partially happy with the way they turned out. You make it sound like he's being forced at gunpoint to write these films in ways he disagrees with, and the evidence simply isn't there to support that claim. If he's such a talented writer, why does he consistently work on bad movies?

And while he was correct in calling out Apocalypse for being "about global destruction and visual effects over emotion and character," that's still not the only reason why that film was horrible. Because the truth is the film did have character moments in it (Magneto & his family being the most prominent), they were just handled very clumsily.

I also think you make too much of him not writing many of his films by himself. There are a lot of benefits to having co-writers, like having someone to bounce ideas off of, or to collaborate with to make your dialogue and writing better than it would be on your own. Because xXx 2 was all his, Mr. & Mrs. Smith was all his, Apocalypse (aside from an outline) was all his. And all of those films were at best mediocre if not outright awful.

Even if the writer isn't making all of the story decisions, their job is still to make the script the best they can. If Kinberg had any major issues with ideas that were not his he should've left the project, or if that wasn't possible than at the very least not work on the sequels. But he's done the opposite of that, and the only people who have worked on more comic book projects than him are Kevin Feige and Avi Arad.

There's a lot of gymnastics being done by you and others in this thread to place the blame on everyone but Kinberg. I guess we'll find out in November whether he's the write man for this franchise or not.

 

[Cktopl33]

This is why Kevin Feige was so successful with Marvel Studios. Because as President, from the top down, he gave more creative control (albiet within the established confines of his own ideals for a Marvel film) to the creative teams. And if you remember the writing team (who's worked on Captain America, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War films) have stated their writing process were a back and forth process with Marvel and it was Feige who suggest the third act for Winter Soldier. And you had another person who worked with the Russo brothers on the sitcom that contributed to the script by writing jokes for the film. When Feige brought on the Russo brothers, they contributed their additional ideas to the script. So even with Marvel, there's still this collaboration process with script development.

 

[Elayis]

Annnnnnd your point? As producer of all FF & X-films, Kinberg is basically the Feige of Fox. He even goes a step further and writes a lot of those films, too. And now he's doing all the top three jobs and producing, writing & directing Dark Phoenix. So many of the story ideas have been his, and of course the final script & dialogue for all of the films he wrote. That just means he deserves a bulk of the blame for those films' failures.

Which comes back to what I wrote in my first post in this thread, I can't understand why Fox keeps giving him writing (and now directing) duties on these films when those films consistently disappoint. How many times is it not going to be his fault? If Dark Phoenix is another misstep, there's no one left to pass the buck to.

 

[Cktopl33]

Along with writing Jumper, This Means War, Days of Future Past, Fant4stic and Apocalypse, Kinberg also produced those movies. So unlike many MCU films where the writers are simply hired guns carrying out the will of the studio, Kinberg was one of the driving forces behind those films. I highly doubt he would continue to work on these movies if he wasn't at least partially happy with the way they turned out. You make it sound like he's being forced at gunpoint to write these films in ways he disagrees with, and the evidence simply isn't there to support that claim. If he's such a talented writer, why does he consistently work on bad movies?

And while he was correct in calling out Apocalypse for being "about global destruction and visual effects over emotion and character," that's still not the only reason why that film was horrible. Because the truth is the film did have character moments in it (Magneto & his family being the most prominent), they were just handled very clumsily.

I also think you make too much of him not writing many of his films by himself. There are a lot of benefits to having co-writers, like having someone to bounce ideas off of, or to collaborate with to make your dialogue and writing better than it would be on your own. Because xXx 2 was all his, Mr. & Mrs. Smith was all his, Apocalypse (aside from an outline) was all his. And all of those films were at best mediocre if not outright awful.

Even if the writer isn't making all of the story decisions, their job is still to make the script the best they can. If Kinberg had any major issues with ideas that were not his he should've left the project, or if that wasn't possible than at the very least not work on the sequels. But he's done the opposite of that, and the only people who have worked on more comic book projects than him are Kevin Feige and Avi Arad.

There's a lot of gymnastics being done by you and others in this thread to place the blame on everyone but Kinberg. I guess we'll find out in November whether he's the write man for this franchise or not.

Well, first pretty much all of those films Kinberg isn't the sole screenwriter and he is sharing producing credits. So he alone doesn't make all the major decisions. And a talented writer doesn't equate whether a movie is good or bad. You are ignoring all the other major players that affect script development as well as power dynamic. All major decisions are decided by the studio.

There are also a lot of problems to having co-writers such as an unfocused or muddled script with too many ideas. He only wrote two scripts solely which where his first scripted films early in his career. Apocalypse was not all his as he worked closely with the director in creating the script along with the story team. They are credited with story. And again, a writer can make the script as best they can.....that doesn't mean the outcome of the script has remained untouched. That's just not how it works. Scriptwriters don't have control over the changes made to their scripts. They don't really leave a project but rather get replaced. Their job is to write and rewrite revisions based on notes from studio and director input. Too many major players have input in the direction a script will go because they are the ones providing the funding. That simply the reality of Hollywood. That's not a lot of gymnastics being done. You seem to maintain the same mentality that other naive upcoming screenwriters usually have when they attempt to enter the business.

 

[Cktopl33]

Annnnnnd your point? As producer of all FF & X-films, Kinberg is basically the Feige of Fox. He even goes a step further and writes a lot of those films, too. And now he's doing all the top three jobs and producing, writing & directing Dark Phoenix. So many of the story ideas have been his, and of course the final script & dialogue for all of the films he wrote. That just means he deserves a bulk of the blame for those films' failures.

Which comes back to what I wrote in my first post in this thread, I can't understand why Fox keeps giving him writing (and now directing) duties on these films when those films consistently disappoint. How many times is it not going to be his fault? If Dark Phoenix is another misstep, there's no one left to pass the buck to.

No. Kinberg is not like Feige of Fox. He's not the president of any Fox division. He's signed deals with Fox. Dark Phoenix is solely his story ideas because he's not sharing writing/story credits like he has on nearly all the other films he's worked on. That's main problem with your argument. You seem to think him writing....controls the outcome of a movie. It simply doesn't. Scriptwriters don't have that power. That's the director's job, which is why he keeps getting hired. Dark Phoenix will be his first attempt at that position.

 

[Frankeh]

You seem to think its the Simon Kinberg show.

Huh? Now that you mention it, I recall a certain cast member from DARK PHOENIX saying these movies were his babies up until this point.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

As Director, Writer, & Producer it should be his show

 

[Cktopl33]

And if Dark Phoenix ends up sucking?

Then that will entirely be credited to Kinberg. And he is aware of it. This is the film where he controls the entire creative process as director just like all other directors. Which was my whole point of this entire discussion.

 

[Cktopl33]

Huh? Now that you mention it, I recall a certain cast member from DARK PHOENIX saying these movies were his babies up until this point.

Hmmmm. Interesting since I recall a certain cast member saying it was really exciting to see him "rise up and take hold of the franchise, and direct it in the way that he sees it". So it wasn't really "his" if he didn't have full control until now......

 

[Cktopl33]

Psh. That wouldn't be up to me. And plenty of directors have had many chances directing additional films even after directing bad films. Both Bryan Singer & Matthew Vaughn are examples of that.

 

[Elayis]

And obviously, you'd be giving him a second chance as a director just for the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Curious to know if Kinberg has banned comic books on set like Singer did. That alone makes him superior to Singer. I trust his vision even more.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Pretty sure Alexandra Shipp posted pics and/or vid on social media of Storm comic books and #homework it. Don't believe everything you read.

And as an actor and you get cast as a character in an adaptation, the first thing you should do is buy all the material you can find on said character anyways. Regardless of what the director says.

 

[psylockolussus]

You care more about Kinberg than the source material.

 

[Frankeh]

Unlike you, I understand that studio politics DO affect the outcome of a movie. I'm not going to take things that weren't under a person's control and blame them entirely for that. I'm also not going to assign a level of importance that doesn't belong.

Is claiming that Kinberg is some connoisseur of X-Men comics who was the victim of evil directors not letting his vision come through really an objective reading of the outcome of X-Men movies?

I think it's more in Kinberg's best interests.

I find it interesting that you denounce studio politics when a producer with no directing credits getting his first gig in a tentpole sequel IS studio politics.

 

[Cktopl33]

Is claiming that Kinberg is some connoisseur of X-Men comics who was the victim of evil directors not letting his vision come through really an objective reading of the outcome of X-Men movies?

I think it's more in Kinberg's best interests.

I find it interesting that you denounce studio politics when a producer with no directing credits getting his first gig in a tentpole sequel IS studio politics.

He doesn't have to be a connoisseur of x-men comics. He's read the Dark Phoenix saga even back during production of X3. But even back then he didn't have creative control. It was no secret he had to fight Fox's executives on the plot of the script. Fox thought the writers idea of the story's appeal would be limited to hardcore fans rather than a general audience. So they forced changes to the script and set tight deadlines which affected certain actors schedules. So, again...you seem to willingly ignore the bigger issues that control a film's outcome. The screenwriters are not the star. Don't know how many times this needs repeating.

Kinberg:

"It's five X-Men movies in, and there's The Martian. I've been around big movies," he said. "To me, what would be new about directing would be having more creative control than I do, as I did as a writer, and even as I do as a writer-producer."

It is clearly the director's position that drives the creative vision of a film. That doesn't mean the title of a director equate evil. That's just what the position entail. Directors have more control. That's the way it is in film-making. Kinberg has experience with movies of this scale for over a decade now and because of that, the position of director clearly isn't daunting to him. And that was an obvious plus to him when the studio was considering directors and he has the additional experience with the franchise. Not all first time directors have that experience. And it seem production went much more smoothly than the previous films as a result. So, clearly something went right. Fox had already gone with an experienced director who managed to direct the worst rated x-men film out of the ensemble franchise.

 

[X-Maniac]

I find it hard to believe Kinberg is immersed in the world of the comics.

Nothing about any of the X-Men films suggests a deep knowledge and understanding of the source material, its characters and their relationships.

He may feel he knows the on-screen world they've built but even then, with all the duplicate characters, continuity crinkles and classic characters reduced to cardboard cut-outs, it's not a great achievement.

Also, even as a director, he will still have to do what the execs want. They clearly want big-name leads (Jackman, Lawrence) to carry the films, as feeble a budget as possible and are so terrified of novelty/risk that other studios do it all first. Colourful costumes, giant robots, space travel, female leads, black leads... Fox has been trampled into the dirt by Disney (mostly).

Meanwhile, a film led by a black actor (who's not even very well-known) and a black cast has led the box office for five weeks in a row and looks set to overtake Avengers. It's not even a perfect or utterly amazing film, but it has tapped into what people out there clearly want. In contrast, the X-Men's powerful black character - a goddess no less - worships a white woman and had her most interesting line of dialogue excised from the movie. I think we can all agree Fox's vision is dated and flawed.

 

[Frankeh]

He doesn't have to be a connoisseur of x-men comics. He's read the Dark Phoenix saga even back during production of X3. But even back then he didn't have creative control. It was no secret he had to fight Fox's executives on the plot of the script.

That's certainly what he wants you to believe going by his mea culpa interviews. It is imperative for him to get fans on his side otherwise this movie won't sell. It's always "this movie is great" until it comes out with bad reviews and he apologizes for it. Also: wasn't he caught in message boards back when The Last Stand was released?

He might not be the star but his writing still sucks.

And it seem production went much more smoothly than the previous films as a result. So, clearly something went right.

Smooth production does not make a good film though... jury's still out.

 

[psylockolussus]

Let me spell it out for you, because you seem not to grasp this. The movies....are NOT the source material. Film adaptations.....will NOT be verbatim source material. Even the MCU shows this. If you are looking for source material duplication with film, then you will always be disappointed. Ok? I care more about a good MOVIE. Because this is a FILM medium. I'm glad they're going bold and doing something different this time around because Apocalypse was a failure. That's how these comic book films will stay relevant. Changing things up and not losing sight of making a good movie. What works for FILM. I'm surprised you're more upset Kinberg is directing instead of what Bryan Singer has done to these characters on screen when Kinberg himself has actually read the comics. He knows what the source material is.

Yeah he knows that source material so well that the main reason why he included Olivia Munn in Apocalypse was because he googled Olivia Munnfan art stuff. He doesn't even know Psylocke has psychic powers. Are you going to blame that on studio politics as well. Kinberg has to take responsibilities for his action and you put it all on studio politics and the director as if those made him a creative and talent impotent. Other writers have dealt with studio politics and with less creative freedom than Kinberg and still managed to deliver a good film that had a good script. FYI.

And caring about the source material is important, as that would translate if the film has respected the source material and if its a good film adaptation. While even if Kinberg doesn't stay true to the material or isn't writing a film adaptation, he's still a mefoicre writer as seen in the films he wrote that aren't comic book adaptations.

 

[Cktopl33]

I find it hard to believe Kinberg is immersed in the world of the comics.

Nothing about any of the X-Men films suggests a deep knowledge and understanding of the source material, its characters and their relationships.

He may feel he knows the on-screen world they've built but even then, with all the duplicate characters, continuity crinkles and classic characters reduced to cardboard cut-outs, it's not a great achievement.

Also, even as a director, he will still have to do what the execs want. They clearly want big-name leads (Jackman, Lawrence) to carry the films, as feeble a budget as possible and are so terrified of novelty/risk that other studios do it all first. Colourful costumes, giant robots, space travel, female leads, black leads... Fox has been trampled into the dirt by Disney (mostly).

Meanwhile, a film led by a black actor (who's not even very well-known) and a black cast has led the box office for five weeks in a row and looks set to overtake Avengers. It's not even a perfect or utterly amazing film, but it has tapped into what people out there clearly want. In contrast, the X-Men's powerful black character - a goddess no less - worships a white woman and had her most interesting line of dialogue excised from the movie. I think we can all agree Fox's vision is dated and flawed.

He doesn't have to be immersed in the world of comics. He's read them. But he doesn't have to be a comic expert to make a successful movie. If you feel that nothing about any of the X-Men films suggests a deep knowledge and understanding of the source material....well that shouldn't be shock considering none of those directors have read any of the comics. They're the creative vision behind it.

No director escapes notes of studio execs or film investors. That happens in every studio because they are the ones with the keys to set the film into production. They're providing the funding so there's always a trade-off of some-sort. The difference is in how much control is given up because of that.

With Black Panther, that is a film lead by the vision of its director and the creative freedom given by MCU's president. So this goes back to the level of creative control over a production.