The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread VIII

[Saitou Hajime]

For Batman against multiple opponents, they should look to how Bourne took care of the Blackbriar operatives in Waterloo from "Ultimatum". Total surprise, quick, hard-hitting, and most importantly, great crowd control. It always killed me how Nolan's Batman took too long to dismantle one guy (or that he even fought just one guy) and got hit a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUd5RPVDjPY

 

[Boom]

Oh yes. That is so much worse than what we got in TDK. I can't see a thing.

 

[Piuchén]

In Nolan´s world he cannot be perfect, he is like a commando, has to do a little bit of everything, he would never be the best martial artist ever, he can adapt to do stuff but hand to hand he would never defeat a fighter who trains for that all the time...

 

[DaveMoral]

I think in terms of martial arts it really should be a "to each his own" sort of situation. I mean, in the comics, Batman is supposed to have mastered every martial art known to man. So in terms of film it really comes down to the filmmaker's preference as to which fighting style their interpretation of Batman will use. Personally, I'd like to see a Batman film where he utilizes Krav Maga. However seeing him use a more agile and acrobatic martial art wouldn't really hurt my feelings.

I actually don't think it's too much to ask for a filmmaker, or more specifically, a fight choreographer, to utilize a varied degree of martial arts. I can see aiming at a base, but c'mon. Keysi is already defunct and the founders have reverted to Jeet Kune Do instruction. From what we've seen of Batman fighting in TDKR set videos it looks like there may be some Malay/Indo Silat in the mix. Which makes perfect sense. There's plenty of brutal and efficient martial arts out there for Batman to utilize in these films. KFM does become rather repetitive and boring.

As far as spinning kicks, I've argued against their utility some... but frankly, watch professional fighting. K-1, UFC, Strikeforce. You see some interesting stuff in use there. In his last fight under WEC Anthony Pettis did a goram jumping roundhouse kick off the cage and damn near KO'd Ben Henderson. Or Jon Jones' spinning elbow to Vitor Belfort's head when he won the Light Heavyweight title.

Frankly, I think there's room for that kind of stuff coming from Batman and not all of it has to come off as dancey. Fights are a choreographed dance in film anyway. But they don't have to be "embroidered kicks and flowery fists" as the Chinese say. It can be brutal, it can be efficient. At least half of that lay in how it is filmed and the sound effects that go with it. A spinning back kick to the solar plexus is pretty vicious as it is, add some heavy sound effects and perhaps a tight shot of it... it's viciousness is magnified greatly.

 

[Fenrir]

Bourne's fight with Desh in The Bourne Ultimatum is hands down my favorite hand-to-hand combat scene ever. It's so fast, visceral and absolutely unrelenting. Both men just go at each other like savage animals and everything is fair game - books, lanterns, towels...and no stupid stances, no flashy moves. I love it because that is how I expect real assassins would fight: with brutal efficiency.

As a matter of fact, the fight in Batman Arkham City's Hugo Strange trailer has quite a bit of 'Bourne' in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCtJsy-d9w

It just suits Batman better.

 

[Joker594]

I actually don't think it's too much to ask for a filmmaker, or more specifically, a fight choreographer, to utilize a varied degree of martial arts.

Hopefully we'll get some sort of interpretation of Batman in the near future where a great number of fighting styles are showcased

 

[DaveMoral]

Hopefully we'll get some sort of interpretation of Batman in the near future where a great number of fighting styles are showcased

The hell of it is that Nolan could have done it, and set up Bruce Wayne's knowledge of martial arts to do that in Begins. He just chose to go with Keysi because those guys were promoting the hell out of their garbage in Hollywood at the time. Come the third installment and those guys aren't even doing their own thing anymore. I'm in no way convinced that a guy who had such a vast knowledge of East Asian martial arts, as Bruce is shown to have when he faces off with Ducard/Ra's after getting to the League of Shadows temple, would ever come up with something like Keysi as his own style.

Plus, there's something to be said for personal fighting style/flavor and creating one's own martial art. Bruce doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to just create his own martial art, he's there for utility and his vast knowledge means he's got a huge arsenal to work with. To create his own martial art means he'd be paring things down to a select few techniques from everything he's learned as a focus and Bruce Wayne is just so dedicated to mastering as many techniques to use in any possible situation that I don't think he'd really ever spend much time saying to himself "well, this martial art that I learned has a whole bunch of stuff that is useless except for these few things" I think he's actually the sort to approach his martial arts with an open mind and the thought that whatever he learns could potentially have utility given the kinds of situations he's going to throw himself into. It's just fortunate that there's so much overlap in martial arts that, and this is actually true, once he's mastered one other styles come much easier to him. And the interplay of all those different styles means that kung fu A becomes informed by Japanese style B and both by Malay style C etc etc.

 

[Joker594]

The hell of it is that Nolan could have done it, and set up Bruce Wayne's knowledge of martial arts to do that in Begins. He just chose to go with Keysi because those guys were promoting the hell out of their garbage in Hollywood at the time. Come the third installment and those guys aren't even doing their own thing anymore. I'm in no way convinced that a guy who had such a vast knowledge of East Asian martial arts, as Bruce is shown to have when he faces off with Ducard/Ra's after getting to the League of Shadows temple, would ever come up with something like Keysi as his own style.

Plus, there's something to be said for personal fighting style/flavor and creating one's own martial art. Bruce doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to just create his own martial art, he's there for utility and his vast knowledge means he's got a huge arsenal to work with. To create his own martial art means he'd be paring things down to a select few techniques from everything he's learned as a focus and Bruce Wayne is just so dedicated to mastering as many techniques to use in any possible situation that I don't think he'd really ever spend much time saying to himself "well, this martial art that I learned has a whole bunch of stuff that is useless except for these few things" I think he's actually the sort to approach his martial arts with an open mind and the thought that whatever he learns could potentially have utility given the kinds of situations he's going to throw himself into. It's just fortunate that there's so much overlap in martial arts that, and this is actually true, once he's mastered one other styles come much easier to him. And the interplay of all those different styles means that kung fu A becomes informed by Japanese style B and both by Malay style C etc etc.

I see what you're gettin' at. Again, I think that there will come a time when we movie-goers will see a much more dynamic approach to who Batman is as a fighter. . . .maybe a little Krav Maga in there too *crosses fingers* lol

 

[DaveMoral]

I see what you're gettin' at. Again, I think that there will come a time when we movie-goers will see a much more dynamic approach to who Batman is as a fighter. . . .maybe a little Krav Maga in there too *crosses fingers* lol

I've honestly never been impressed with Krav Maga.

 

[Joker594]

I've honestly never been impressed with Krav Maga.

Really? Maybe it's just because I'm a Splinter Cell fan lol

 

[Asgard]

Krav Maga is brutal.

Thats probably the one martial art that would suit Batman the best.

They encourage the attacking of the testicles.

 

[Joker594]

Krav Maga is brutal.

Thats probably the one martial art that would suit Batman the best.

They encourage the attacking of the testicles.

Indeed. They also encourage you to used your environment to your advantage; like throwing sand into your opponent's eyes - Something that would be considered dishonorable in an eastern martial art.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Indeed. They also encourage you to used your environment to your advantage; like throwing sand into your opponent's eyes - Something that would be considered dishonorable in an Eastern Martial Art.

Dirt in someone's eyes is not in any way disallowed by Eastern arts as dishonorable. Don't listen to movies that portray karateka as if it was all ahonorable and chivalrous. I can tell you from 25 years is karate as well as Hapkido and Genbukan that fighting dirty is abosolutly encouraged. Heck, Krav Magas striking is taken from Immi's years of Shotokan karate and well as Sambo's striking.

 

[Joker594]

Dirt in someone's eyes is not in any way disallowed by Eastern arts as dishonorable. Don't listen to movies that portray karateka as if it was all ahonorable and chivalrous. I can tell you from 25 years is karate as well as Hapkido and Genbukan that fighting dirty is abosolutly encouraged. Heck, Krav Magas striking is taken from Immi's years of Shotokan karate and well as Sambo's striking.

Interesting. I honestly never knew that. Krav Maga also teaches you how to kill a person. Are there any other eastern martial arts that do this that I wasnt aware of?

 

[Dark Knight]

[YT]muCtJsy-d9w&list=FLZZmtD__wyHo&index=59[/YT]

That's how Batman should fight.

Batman does fight like this in Nolans films. They just need to be a bit more brutal, need to hear more bones cracking and breaking. A little more blood needs to be shown also.

The fight scenes shouldn't be cut and edited so fast either.

 

[ChickenScratch]

All martial arts are about surviving, and you are taught to use everything in the book. Movies portray martal artists as heros or villains and thus they and what they do are characterized in a certain way. Just like I've never seen ninjutsu on screen, lost of karated, teakwondo and kung fu being sold to an audience who can't tell the difference.

A martail art looks as dynamic onscreen as the director can film it.

 

[Joker594]

All martial arts are about surviving and you are taught to use everything inv the book. Movies portray martal artists as heros or villains and thus they and what they do are characterized in a certain way. Just like I've never seen ninjutsus on screen, lost of karated, teakwondo and kung fu being sold to an audience who can't tell the difference.

A martail art looks as dynamic onscreen as the director can film it.

Agreed I hadn't realized that there were other martial arts that permitted such brutal tactics. I always thought Krav Maga was the goto martial art for fighting dirty. My cousin is almost a black belt in Aikido and he says that such tactics are frowned upon.
Still though. Batman + Krav Maga would be interesting in my opinion

 

[ChickenScratch]

When fighting to survive, honor means nothing. Karate is probably the dirtiest, most brutal style I've learned. I remember complaining as a child about not being able to use throat slashes, eye guages, knife hand, spear hand, groin strikes, etc in tournaments. But you grow us and you learn the difference between fighting for sport and show where you care for your opponent. Rather than in real life when blind him and then crush the wind pipe.

There are enough styles out there that derive their striking directly, indirectly,in part or in whole from karate. Teakwondo, Tangsudo, Hapkido, Krav Maga, Sambo, etc.

Yes, I'm a karate booster. I Teach it.

 

[Joker594]

When fighting to survive, honor means nothing. Karate is probably the dirtiest, most brutal style I've learned. I remember complaining as a child about not being able to use throat slashes, eye guages, knife hand, spear hand, groin strikes, etc in tournaments. But you grow us and you learn the difference between fighting for sport and show where you care for your opponent. Rather than in real life when blind him and then crush the wind pipe.

Indeed. S*** can get real out there.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Not to derail the topic, but to me Keysi always looked like Wing Chun Kung Fu as taught by a really bad teacher. But it is from Jeet Kun Do and Bruce's first stle was WC so you can see the lineage there.

As for its use in the films, if they don't look dynamic enough, that's Nolans thing. Even an ugly brawl between unskilled opponents can be made to look good.

 

[Eggyman]

It's always been my gripe about these films, as much as I love them. The Begins fights were cut too quick, and TDK fights used longer cuts that unfortunately made it all look very slow and staged. It's always been the weakest link in the franchise. It's like Nolan doesn't have much in the way of ideas for it and just says, 'May as well just elbow him again.'

From what I've seen of the fight on the steps, the problem is still present with the technique in TDKR. What I don't know is how it will be cut together this time.

 

[D.P.]

What? Who said that?

A lot of different people.

I think in terms of martial arts it really should be a "to each his own" sort of situation. I mean, in the comics, Batman is supposed to have mastered every martial art known to man. So in terms of film it really comes down to the filmmaker's preference as to which fighting style their interpretation of Batman will use. Personally, I'd like to see a Batman film where he utilizes Krav Maga. However seeing him use a more agile and acrobatic martial art wouldn't really hurt my feelings.

I've never heard of Krav Maga until you brought it up, so I found this on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnZ0sfOiuIM

Looks great. This is kind of how Batman fights in the Arkham games.

 

[Shazam]

So Batman having tons of agility and acrobatic moves is deemed unrealistic?

Yeah!! Can you believe THAT??? After 70 plus years, in order to justify a heavy rubber suit.....Now all of a sudden that cat-like speed he had is stupid, now! Go figger.....

 

[DaveMoral]

Interesting. I honestly never knew that. Krav Maga also teaches you how to kill a person. Are there any other eastern martial arts that do this that I wasnt aware of?

Krav Maga is a mish mash of east asian martial arts. Anything you find there you will find in China and Japan and Indonesia.

 

[Shazam]

For Batman against multiple opponents, they should look to how Bourne took care of the Blackbriar operatives in Waterloo from "Ultimatum". Total surprise, quick, hard-hitting, and most importantly, great crowd control. It always killed me how Nolan's Batman took too long to dismantle one guy (or that he even fought just one guy) and got hit a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUd5RPVDjPY

It's that heavy rubber suit. t: