The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread VIII

[DaveMoral]

I'm going to be completely honest with you and say that the idea of a CGI Batsuit in any form, with the exception of a CGI animated film, would add an inhuman quality to Batman that I'd just rather not see. I mean, the whole appeal of Batman is that it is theoretically possible to be him. From the gear, to the physical prowess. For some reason a CGI suit would take away from that. It worked in Green Lantern because it was Green Lantern. I just don't think it would work for Batman.

 

[hegele]

i agree. CGI on Batman would be idiotic. In theory it was supposed to work for Green Lantern but even that looked ridiculous.

 

[Majik1387]

CGI on Batman's suit is just unnecessary and a waste of money honestly.

And the CGI for Green Lantern could have worked if it looked better.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I wouldn't mind a mo-cap CGI Batman movie if the technology keeps improving. There's a lot you can do with a blend of animation and realism that can more fully bring out the visuals and thematic imagery of the comics. Batman partially in the shadows with white eyes, for example, or his cape flowing in the wind, or complex martial arts sequences, etc.

 

[EliteF50]

If WB would have gotten a better studio than Sony to do the CG, it would have looked amazing.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

If WB would have gotten a better studio than Sony to do the CG, it would have looked amazing.

I agree with you. People keep bringing up the Green Lantern film, but that film was doomed from the get go for various reasons.

It'll be another six years before we see another Bat flim on the big screen at the earliest. Six years is alot of time for CGI to improve.

At that point, my question to all you is will you care for an issue that is difficult to perceive? For example, how many of you in here watched Robert Rodriguez's Machete?


*SPOILER*


The scene involving a nude Jessica Alba in the shower was fabricated -- Alba was never nude. She was in her underwear.



It's difficult to imagine a CGI Batsuit but, inevitably, a director will come along to give the idea a green light in the near future.

I don't see how it's a waste of money and resources either. Nolan, for instance, was given 250 million. That's more than enough for a couple scenes.

 

[Majik1387]

There's a difference between editing out flesh tone underwear to appear nude than to animate an entire costume for no good reason.

 

[TheBatman072]

it's a waste of money and resources when you don't have to do it and it can be done practically, as has been demonstrated twice now.

It's a waste of money and resources when you're going to do it just to cater to a few nerds on the internet.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

There's a difference between editing out flesh tone underwear to appear nude than to animate an entire costume for no good reason.

Nevertheless, technology is constantly improving. While films such as Avatar and Rise of the Planet of the Apes are still not 'believable', the schematics and blue prints have been introduced. It's only a matter of time, in my opinion, before this technology is elevated to new levels.

 

[EliteF50]

Doomsday, while I can see your point, it would be a waste of money to make an all CGI Batsuit. What's the use? What I would do is get a great looking real Batsuit then enhance it with CGI in post.

Not entirely CGI, not entirely real.

EDIT. Just read your original post, now I completely agree. Having a CGI suit during the fight scenes would be a great idea to increase mobility. Imagine how slick Batman could look. Then we'd be able to get fight scenes like in Arkham City.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

it's a waste of money and resources when you don't have to do it and it can be done practically, as has been demonstrated twice now.

It's a waste of money and resources when you're going to do it just to cater to a few nerds on the internet.

By that logic, I guess seven Tumblers is a waste of money and resources...

 

[TheBatman072]

By that logic, I guess seven Tumblers is a waste of money and resources...

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Doomsday, while I can see your point, it would be a waste of money to make an all CGI Batsuit. What's the use? What I would do is get a great looking real Batsuit then enhance it with CGI in post.

Not entirely CGI, not entirely real.

I'm not stating that we should do away with the real Batsuit. What I'm saying is a CGI Batsuit in fight or acrobatic scenes is ideal.

The Kevlar-Plated suit that Bale and Reeves put on is a hassle. It's lighter and more mobile but Bale and Reeves still move around like cyborgs when coming to a few scenes.

 

[Majik1387]

Multiple tumblers for a movie that has multiple tumblers in the script is not a waste of money.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Multiple tumblers for a movie that has multiple tumblers in the script is not a waste of money.

Matter of personal opinion.

Each Tumbler cost around $250,000 to construct (possibly higher after the economic crisis). It's possible to explore a more stable route than to actually construct seven Tumblers.

I'm not actually bothered by the construction of seven Tumblers but you get my point. Money can be salvaged and used in other areas.

What you consider to be a waste of funds and resources is also a matter of opinion.

 

[DaveMoral]

I'm willing to be that each Tumbler has decreased in cost, actually. I reckon a good hunk of that $250,000 for the first was largely spent in development and design so it would actually function. Not in the actual production of the thing.

 

[Nightrunner]

CGI on Batman's suit is just unnecessary and a waste of money honestly.

And the CGI for Green Lantern could have worked if it looked better.

So far they have failed in one way or another with the suits they ve made. CGI could have solved a lot of issues of a practical suit, like the neck mobility problem.

CGI can be awesome if used well. In Ironman they used a real suit in some scenes and they still needed CGI to give its plastic a metallic look. Even so the suit looked amazing in every scene.

 

[DaveMoral]

Suffice to say, I remain extremely skeptical that a Batsuit could be reasonably achieved without it looking like there's some kind of unnatural movement. Mocap would be the best way, and even that doesn't always look convincing to me.

I'm sure this isn't really the thread for it, and maybe I'll try to go back and find the physique thread but I'm gonna post this here. There's obviously a trend towards bodybuilding type exercise for characters like Batman and Wolverine in order to achieve the physique believed required for the role. I have a problem with that, because bodybuilding really would not yield the kind of results that Batman would want in order to endure the rigors of what he's doing day-in day-out. I'm currently reading Convict Conditioning by Paul "Coach" Wade and I'm looking to gymnast strength training both of which de-emphasize weight training like you find in the gym. It's almost all body weight exercises, old school calisthenics. Strongmen back in the day, for instance when Batman was created and upon whom he and Superman were both based(heck, in the original origin for Batman we see Bruce in a stereotypical strongman pose hoisting a barbell over his head with one hand), also used calisthenics for their primary training and used weights supplementally or as feats of strength for show. Batman is obviously a gymnast, as is Nightwing and the Robins, a strongman and a martial artist. I'm just thinking the way that Bale gets in shape for these movies, or any future actor, might better serve the film if it was done in the way Bruce most likely would have trained.

 

[TheDarkKnight83]

I'm not stating that we should do away with the real Batsuit. What I'm saying is a CGI Batsuit in fight or acrobatic scenes is ideal.

It's already been done in both films, sort of. For certain action scenes they had a completely CGI Batman, or "Digital Stunt Double" as they call it.

Begins:

Spoiler

The digital Batman stunt double was used primarily in situations where it was impossible to stage a practical stunt, sometimes because the special effects (practical) requirements were too difficult to rig for real or where the stunt would have been too dangerous to stage

http://www.syflex.biz/gallery_dneg.html

Batman swings through the steam jets as he desperately tries to ascend to the monorail train. This shot is 100% digital.

Batman plunges into the fog-filled abyss. Much of the flying sequence was achieved practically on set, but the key takeoff and landing moments used Double Negative’s photoreal digital stunt double.

Batman exits the doomed train leaving Ras Al Ghul to his fate. The train interior scenes were filmed on a greenscreen set at Shepperton. Double Negative created the exterior city and receding carriage digitally and added a digital Batman that blends seamlessly with the live action stunt that starts inside the carriage.

http://www.fxguide.com/featured/double_negative_breaks_down_batman_begins_pt_2/

http://www.dneg.com/projects/batman_begins_16.html

TDK:

Spoiler

We also built a special Batman stunt double for the sequence in order to match the look of the stuntman who was riding the bike during the chase shots.

Creating BatdoublesM
Cyberscans of both Christian Bale and stunt driver Jean-Pierre Goy -- both in the Batsuit -- formed the basis of the digital double models. Unlike in Batman Begins, the new Batsuit features a complex exoskeleton of sliding armor that required a separate animation rig running on top of the character rig. No motion capture was used -- the animation was completely keyframed.

http://www.awn.com/articles/production/ithe-dark-knighti-grounding-batman-part-1/page/4,1

Although a stunt rider wearing a Christian Bale mask most often raced the practical Batpod, at speeds up to 100 miles per hour, Double Negative’s digital Batpod and digital doubles for Batman and the stunt rider rode into some shots.

During the sequence, the Joker pushes Rachel Dawes (Maggie Gyllenhaal) out the window and, without hesitation, Batman dives after her.

“That was a CG shot,” Davis says. “Double Negative put Gotham outside the window, and created CG doubles for Maggie and Batman, but when they land at the bottom, it’s a live-action scene. So, it involved complicated greenscreen and character work.”

Similarly, Double Negative re-created an interior environment and replaced Batman and two hostages with digital doubles for a shot later in the sequence when Batman grabs the hostages and jumps over a stair rail to escape.

Long before the ferry evacuation, Bruce travels to Hong Kong to pursue money launderers, an IMAX sequence for which Framestore CFC built Hong Kong’s tallest skyscraper, the 88-story Two ifc, its cousin, the 39-story One ifc, the environment surrounding the buildings, and a CG Batman. “Bruce Wayne gets into his Batman garb on top of the Two ifc,” says Davis. “So we filmed plates from the top and from helicopters to have digital Batman leap off the building.”
The shot starts with a stuntman on greenscreen. It transitions into a CG Batman who flies around digital Hong Kong, and then transitions again to the stuntman who smashes through a window of the lower building. The stunt Batman sticks bombs onto other windows and blows out the side of a miniature building that Framestore CFC inserts into a CG building. Then, stunt Batman fires a little weather balloon that floats up to a real C130 transport plane. Digital Batman grabs onto a skyhook and enters a digital cargo hold in the plane.

http://www.cgw.com/Publications/CGW...-8-Aug-2008-/Extreme-Effects-Inspiration.aspx

 

[BlueLantern]

Double Negative seem to be pretty awesome at what they do based on the shots mentioned. Couldn't tell the difference. Pretty seamless stuff.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

It's already been done in both films, sort of. For certain action scenes they had a completely CGI Batman, or "Digital Stunt Double" as they call it.

Begins:

Spoiler

http://www.syflex.biz/gallery_dneg.html




http://www.fxguide.com/featured/double_negative_breaks_down_batman_begins_pt_2/

http://www.dneg.com/projects/batman_begins_16.html

TDK:

Spoiler

http://www.awn.com/articles/production/ithe-dark-knighti-grounding-batman-part-1/page/4,1





http://www.cgw.com/Publications/CGW...-8-Aug-2008-/Extreme-Effects-Inspiration.aspx

Wow, that's quite impressive.

I knew there were a few CGI moments in both BB and TDK, but you hardly notice most of it. I was unware of a few scenes that were created out of scratch and/or modified. Thank you for posting this.

 

[Majik1387]

There's nothing wrong with cgi stunt doubles

Its cost effective to not have your stars and crew die

It is not cost effective nor necessary for a simple Batsuit to be cgi; It's honestly pretty stupid.

 

[BatScot]

And yet we see Bruce as an eccentric loner in each and every Batman movie thats ever come out. Its been a constant theme. Why would you want it any other way? I dont want Bruce to become a boyscout like Supes. I want him to be the character that ive always loved, the man who has an extremely hard time trusting anyone and letting anyone get close. The man who is obsessed with fighting crime, to the point that he neglects his own personal life. I dont want Bruce to chill in the Batcave and then head upstairs to feed his child with a pacifier. Because thats what you make it sound like..that Bruce is a family man, and loves his family time. While he might have formed all those groups, he has always preferred to work alone. You couldnt be more wrong about the character in that sense.

That's more like it... the Batman "family" makes for decent enough comic book fare, but this is lone Batman is a Batman rooted in his pulp origins, the Batman of Frank Miller that transcended the genre, a Batman that is truer to the psychology of a man who might actually walk down such a path.

Oh, and the black bat logo trumps the oval.

 

[BatScot]

It is not cost effective nor necessary for a simple Batsuit to be cgi; It's honestly pretty stupid.

Agreed with one exception—if they were to CGI the TDK suit so it looked nothing like the TDK suit that honestly would be a pretty good idea.

 

[Majik1387]

Sure it would.