The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread

[Paste Pot Pete]

@ Azbats suit:

I was only a kid in the 90ies and reading Knightfall now i dont know if i can get all the metatext about it. I think DC was trying to make a point with this suit and to show that Batman's suit with the panties is actually cool and that fans shouldnt be asking for silly revamps. Or i could be reading too much into it.

No, you got it just right. Not just the costume, the whole character of Azbats was a commentary of the "extreme 90s."

It's ironic, because some people lump it in with the extreme 90s, not getting the fact that it was a criticism of it. The whole point was that AzBats sucked and that you just can't beat the classic Bat, or turn him into the Punisher.

 

[Saint]

No, you got it just right. Not just the costume, the whole character of Azbats was a commentary of the "extreme 90s."

It's ironic, because some people lump it in with the extreme 90s, not getting the fact that it was a criticism of it. The whole point was that AzBats sucked and that you just can't beat the classic Bat, or turn him into the Punisher.

Yeah, I remember listening to Denny O'Neil talking about how AzBats was their was of saying to the readers "No, you really don't want us to do that with Batman."

You know who kicks ass? Denny O'Neil. That guy is just fascinating to listen to. He seems inherently reasonable and clever. There should be an entire fleet of Denny O'Neils making comics.

 

[Saint]

The Swastika doesn't have a colorful yellow oval around it though.

In fact, it was often displayed on bright red backgrounds (often with a white circle around it. Google "swastika" and check out the very first image result; that is the definitive Nazi use of the swastika. The Nazi flag and even the Nazi uniforms were meticulously designed to be intimidating--lots of blacks and greys--and the bright red was a part of that.

 

[Boom]

Besides, would any of us really **** ourselves with anger if the oval was not bright yellow?

I think bronze or copper could look cool.

 

[bunk]

In fact, it was often displayed on bright red backgrounds (often with a white circle around it. Google "swastika" and check out the very first image result; that is the definitive Nazi use of the swastika. The Nazi flag and even the Nazi uniforms were meticulously designed to be intimidating--lots of blacks and greys--and the bright red was a part of that.

Suggestion: wait until you get to work to do that. Google works better at work maybe.

 

[Saint]

Besides, would any of us really **** ourselves with anger if the oval was not bright yellow?

I think bronze or copper could look cool.

I'm more inclined to gold myself, but bronze and copper are interesting ideas, I must say.

Suggestion: wait until you get to work to do that. Google works better at work maybe.

I believe it.

 

[RustyCage]

In fact, it was often displayed on bright red backgrounds (often with a white circle around it. Google "swastika" and check out the very first image result; that is the definitive Nazi use of the swastika. The Nazi flag and even the Nazi uniforms were meticulously designed to be intimidating--lots of blacks and greys--and the bright red was a part of that.

Yeah, I remember the white circle. The use of red on the flag seems akin to the pitch black of Batman's cape to me.

But the thing was, it's not the white circle that makes the swastika scary. The person I was replying to said it's scary when criminals see the yellow oval. I just can't figure what's so scary about that. I'd be no more scared of any symbol with a big blotch of yellow behind it - much less the yellow itself.

What would really be scary is seeing his eyes glow in the dark.

 

[RustyCage]

I think bronze or copper could look cool.

Totally. I liked the color they used on Kilmer's first suit.

 

[Savage]

Yeah, I remember the white circle. The use of red on the flag seems akin to the pitch black of Batman's cape to me.

But the thing was, it's not the white circle that makes the swastika scary. The person I was replying to said it's scary when criminals see the yellow oval. I just can't figure what's so scary about that. I'd be no more scared of any symbol with a big blotch of yellow behind it - much less the yellow itself.

What would really be scary is seeing his eyes glow in the dark.

It's scary for the same reason Superman's S is scary to some and a symbol of hope to others. As is, Batman doesn't have a symbol (though one can argue that the Bat-signal already does that job but that's not quite the same). It's what makes Batman scary once the world knows about Batman and he's no longer a mythical creature. It's the world figures out that yeah, he really is human after all but he really is the one you don't want to mess with and when you see that logo it's a good idea to start running.

It's just...integral to superheroes. At least types like Batman and Superman anyway. I don't think Marvel has anybody like that besides Captain America so they can get away with it.

 

[Saint]

Yeah, I remember the white circle. The use of red on the flag seems akin to the pitch black of Batman's cape to me.

But the thing was, it's not the white circle that makes the swastika scary. The person I was replying to said it's scary when criminals see the yellow oval. I just can't figure what's so scary about that. I'd be no more scared of any symbol with a big blotch of yellow behind it - much less the yellow itself.

Well, no--and nobody looks at the swastika and becomes frightened--but it's an imposing symbol, whether you'r consciously aware of that or not. There's a reason footage of Nazi's marching around these banners and wearing these things on their arms is immediately ominous, and it's not just the horror we associate with the Nazis--aesthetically, this stuff is tooled to intimidate.

My point is merely that a "brightly coloured oval," as you called it, doesn't inherently make something less frightening. You're right, though, that the batsymbol, both in it's colour and the way it's designed, probably does not inspire fear, but that's okay. I think it's more multipurpose than that, which suits Batman fine--he isn't just about inspiring fear. I think for a character like Batman, for whom the light is more important than the dark, having this yellow signal behind the silhouette is very fitting.

Not to get poetic here, but the idea of shining a light on evil comes to mind. In Batwoman's run on Detective Comics, she described the signal as a call to arms, and that's something else you're not going to get if the icon is designed to inspire fear.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Besides, would any of us really **** ourselves with anger if the oval was not bright yellow?

I think bronze or copper could look cool.

That wouldnt make much sense tho and would completely miss the point of the oval logo. The oval logo is suppose to be a silhouette of a bat in front of the moon, the logo is a moon in the middle of the night which is the rest of Batman's suit

 

[Saint]

I don't think the emblem was designed with intention of representing a moon or anything else. It is, after all, an oval. The moon isn't.

Though, I have long advocated that the emblem should be change to a circle rather than an oval.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I don't think the emblem was designed with intention of representing a moon or anything else. It is, after all, an oval. The moon isn't.

Though, I have long advocated that the emblem should be change to a circle rather than an oval.

According to the originator of the yellow logo, Julius Schwartz and the Batman: Complete History by Les Daniels it was. To be more specific it was suppose to be the bat signal on the sky, which is more or less a bat in front of the moon and which wasnt always a circle (and isnt in Forever)

 

[Saint]

According to the originator of the yellow logo, Julius Schwartz and the Batman: Complete History by Les Daniels it was. To be more specific it was suppose to be the bat signal on the sky, which is more or less a bat in front of the moon and which wasnt always a circle (and isnt in Forever)

Well, what you're telling me here is that they say it was designed after the bat-signal--do they say the batsignal was designed after the moon, or is that your speculation?

 

[GothamAlleys]

The moon is my addition - the official say is that its the bat signal from the sky, but the bat signal looks like a bat in front of the full moon. And it matches the idea of Batman being the night

 

[Drz]

Yeah, I remember listening to Denny O'Neil talking about how AzBats was their was of saying to the readers "No, you really don't want us to do that with Batman."

Best thing is he post-Knightfall gave Azrael a great ongoing series where he wasn't the epitome of 90s extremeeeeee.

You know who kicks ass? Denny O'Neil. That guy is just fascinating to listen to. He seems inherently reasonable and clever. There should be an entire fleet of Denny O'Neils making comics.

Yeah he's only real flaws for me was killing off Jason Todd, Death in a Family should have had Jason survived and the near-death-experience change him into a better person, but still a punk. Damian Wayne more or less. You should definatly check out his GA/GL volumes Saint!

 

[Gianakin_]

Well, Todd's death was the decision of the readers, really.

 

[Drz]

Well, Todd's death was the decision of the readers, really.

Yeah, but if you for example got 2-disc Under the Red Hood or the blu-ray, you can watch the documentary where they discuss the possible multi-phonecalls that some people we're making for either the favour or demise of Jason. The phone call was a bad decision, and as Frank Miller said, one of the most disgusting things ever done in comics.

 

[JAK®]

Yeah, I remember the white circle. The use of red on the flag seems akin to the pitch black of Batman's cape to me.

But the thing was, it's not the white circle that makes the swastika scary. The person I was replying to said it's scary when criminals see the yellow oval. I just can't figure what's so scary about that. I'd be no more scared of any symbol with a big blotch of yellow behind it - much less the yellow itself.

What would really be scary is seeing his eyes glow in the dark.

Well, what I said was that it was perfect for a Batman who is established and well-known among the criminal underworld. He no longer needs to attack from the shadows or resemble a giant bat to be scary. His sheer reputation does it for him. In that sense, when a criminal sees the yellow oval, they are scared, because they know Batman is there. I'm not suggesting that they are frightened of a yellow oval. That's like suggesting the Jews were afraid of the swastika because it was red, white and black.

 

[Saint]

Best thing is he post-Knightfall gave Azrael a great ongoing series where he wasn't the epitome of 90s extremeeeeee.

Yeah, he made Jean Paul into a character that was actually likable and interesting.

 

[Gianakin_]

Yeah, but if you for example got 2-disc Under the Red Hood or the blu-ray, you can watch the documentary where they discuss the possible multi-phonecalls that some people we're making for either the favour or demise of Jason. The phone call was a bad decision, and as Frank Miller said, one of the most disgusting things ever done in comics.

Agreed, I was just saying that is wasn't Denny's decision, per se.

 

[RustyCage]

Well, no--and nobody looks at the swastika and becomes frightened...

It makes me pretty concerned, actually.

and it's not just the horror we associate with the Nazis--aesthetically, this stuff is tooled to intimidate.

I tend to find just the Swastika itself more scary, in that it's used alone more in tattoos and graffiti and such. Something about the simplicity there, the lack of decoration and the absence of the whole professional banner look, is striking to me.. It seems more unhinged, more like a recklessly fanatic idea bubbling underground and less like a brand name. Kinda like the Joker's smile graffiti in the TDK virals.

Obviously what is more scary to who is going to differ though. I can see how one might find the alternative scarier. But in either case, circle behind it or not, people see those symbols and know to watch out for those who bear it. I guess that's the bottom line.

My point is merely that a "brightly coloured oval," as you called it, doesn't inherently make something less frightening.

The person I was replying to seemed to imply it made it more scary, and I didn't understand how.

I enjoy your take on it though. That's an interesting analysis.

You're right, though, that the batsymbol, both in it's colour and the way it's designed, probably does not inspire fear, but that's okay. I think it's more multipurpose than that, which suits Batman fine--he isn't just about inspiring fear. I think for a character like Batman, for whom the light is more important than the dark, having this yellow signal behind the silhouette is very fitting.

Not to get poetic here, but the idea of shining a light on evil comes to mind. In Batwoman's run on Detective Comics, she described the signal as a call to arms, and that's something else you're not going to get if the icon is designed to inspire fear.

I think I glimpsed someone else referring to it as the moon. That's pretty cool.

I also get what you're saying here, that there's more purpose to it than just inspiring fear. And I enjoy that eventual evolution of Batman, where he becomes a symbol of good instead of just vengeful darkness. However, again, the person in question here was saying that the yellow oval is what makes it scary.

 

[RustyCage]

Well, what I said was that it was perfect for a Batman who is established and well-known among the criminal underworld. He no longer needs to attack from the shadows or resemble a giant bat to be scary. His sheer reputation does it for him. In that sense, when a criminal sees the yellow oval, they are scared, because they know Batman is there. I'm not suggesting that they are frightened of a yellow oval. That's like suggesting the Jews were afraid of the swastika because it was red, white and black.

Well, that clears up your statement then.

But I do think the red, white and black are a pretty effective combination. Yellow, not so much, but it does have it's purposes, as Saint has expressed.

 

[antsman41]

Denny is my GOD of Batman...

Nolan is my Jesus of Batman...

Rucka, Brubaker, Loeb are my 3 Wise Men of Batman...

Miller can me Mary of Batman...

 

[Motown Marvel]

Yeah, but if you for example got 2-disc Under the Red Hood or the blu-ray, you can watch the documentary where they discuss the possible multi-phonecalls that some people we're making for either the favour or demise of Jason. The phone call was a bad decision, and as Frank Miller said, one of the most disgusting things ever done in comics.

really, frank miller? that was the most disgusting thing done in comics? not DK2, or all star batman?

ha.