The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - Part 140

[Marvolo]

I would rather a batman 4 take place between begins and the dark knight. You put in villains like the penguin and the riddler, have more of a crime driven story than a full scale destroy the city plot.

I'm not crazy about your idea, don't really find it necessary to bring the joker back and defeats the purpose of bruce moving on from batman.

Nolan and Bale both have said that about a year passed inbetween Begins and TDK. And the Joker himself said "Let's wind the clock back a year." Not a whole lot of wiggle room in that time frame.

I've heard speculation that the Banker that fires the shotgun at the joker could be the penguin. Penguin, in his original role, was a mob leader and this guy holds their money in the film. He is shot in the leg and it would account for the penguin's limp, and the joker himself said
"What doesn't kill you makes you stranger", alluding to a change in the bank manager's mental state following the bank robbery. Just fans reading into what is on the screen, but it would have been cool if we could have gotten the penguin in some capacity. Especially since the mob factored so heavily into this trilogy.

 

[Alex Logan]

Replace "Bane" with "LOS truck Driver" and you have the climax of TDKR

Replace "LOS truck Driver" with "Hugo Strange truck Driver" and you have the climax of a story from the comics.

Nolan and Bale both have said that about a year passed inbetween Begins and TDK.

When did they say that?

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

Replace "LOS truck Driver" with "Hugo Strange truck Driver" and you have the climax of a story from the comics.



When did they say that?

Well, The Joker says it in TDK:

"A year ago, these cops & lawyers wouldn't dare cross any of you..."

 

[Mike_D202]

 

[The Batman]

Replace "LOS truck Driver" with "Hugo Strange truck Driver" and you have the climax of a story from the comics.

I read the comics Alex. And your useless post is made even more useless by the fact that the 1939/1940 Batman never contradicted himself by having a "I don't kill people" rule, then killing. The story you mention was just another day at the office for early Batman. The only contradiction there was that he admits that he hates killing, even though a year earlier he punches a guy into a vat of acid and just says "A fitting end for his kind".

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Nolan and Bale both have said that about a year passed inbetween Begins and TDK. And the Joker himself said "Let's wind the clock back a year." Not a whole lot of wiggle room in that time frame.

I've heard speculation that the Banker that fires the shotgun at the joker could be the penguin. Penguin, in his original role, was a mob leader and this guy holds their money in the film. He is shot in the leg and it would account for the penguin's limp, and the joker himself said
"What doesn't kill you makes you stranger", alluding to a change in the bank manager's mental state following the bank robbery. Just fans reading into what is on the screen, but it would have been cool if we could have gotten the penguin in some capacity. Especially since the mob factored so heavily into this trilogy.

I thought the role of Chechen was originally supposed to be Penguin?

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

I would rather a batman 4 take place between begins and the dark knight. You put in villains like the penguin and the riddler, have more of a crime driven story than a full scale destroy the city plot.

I'm not crazy about your idea, don't really find it necessary to bring the joker back and defeats the purpose of bruce moving on from batman.

I don't get why people are so hung up on Blake having no training. He easily dispatched those two goons working for Bane.

With all the gear & time to train himself he'd be a very effective Batman after a couple of years. He'd also still have the aid of Fox & Gordon & possibly Alfred.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I never saw this version of Batman as that skilled. Perhaps he was, but Nolan glosses over most of his training both with and without the LOS and Batman never seems to (or perhaps has to) display any of it in the various fist fights throughout the series, not even in his bouts with Bane. Blake's lack of training is therefore more digestible in comparison. Add to that the general incompetence of henchmen and the police in this franchise and I don't think Blake will have much more trouble than Bruce.

 

[CConn]

You know who was skilled? Michael Keaton.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I read the comics Alex. And your useless post is made even more useless by the fact that the 1939/1940 Batman never contradicted himself by having a "I don't kill people" rule, then killing. The story you mention was just another day at the office for early Batman. The only contradiction there was that he admits that he hates killing, even though a year earlier he punches a guy into a vat of acid and just says "A fitting end for his kind".

Well I hate go down that road but Batman didn't kill anyone in Batman Begins. It was sort of the entire point of the movie distinguishing between a criminal and those who weren't.

At the same time I read all of those Golden Age issues as prototypical Batman / superheroes, they were still growing and becoming fully-realised into the characters they became only later on. The Golden Age Batman was Tim Burton's Batman. And in this continuity, that's Ra's Al Ghul.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

You know who was skilled? Michael Keaton.

Certainly more so with the ladies



Btw, has anyone read up on Wally dissing the Avengers? What'd you guys make of it?

Yeah let's go there. let's really go there.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I thought the role of Chechen was originally supposed to be Penguin?

That's a good dwelling into it. But if the Penguin did exist wouldn't he have been someone who emerged into Gotham after the events of the Joker emerging and what not? Sort of trying to cash-in on the power-vacuum left by the mob and becoming, in essence, a crazier Carmine Falcone?

 

[The Batman]

Well I hate go down that road but Batman didn't kill anyone in Batman Begins. It was sort of the entire point of the movie distinguishing between a criminal and those who weren't.

At the same time I read all of those Golden Age issues as prototypical Batman / superheroes, they were still growing and becoming fully-realised into the characters they became only later on. The Golden Age Batman was Tim Burton's Batman. And in this continuity, that's Ra's Al Ghul.

It only makes comparisons between early Batman and Nolan Batman even more pointless. Early Batman had the distinction of being a Batman in development. Nolan had 70 years of history and what his own Batman has said in the past movies...and this one. And he still contradicts himself.

 

[Uroboric Forms]

I don't see the problem with batman firing missiles at the truck. He isn't using the guns or the missles to actively kill anyone. He is attempting to make the truck driver go were he wants him to by firing missiles and bullets around the truck. If the truck driver chooses to continue to drive into the line of fire its the truck drivers own damn fault. If he had thought "I should probably do what Batman is wanting me to do " he would have lived. Batman wants him to go east so batman fires the missile to the west side. Truck driver stupidly turns west into the missile. Think of it like this, your walking up to a border fence, and the patrolmen begin firing volleys of rounds in front of you to direct you away from the fence is it their fault if you continue to walk into the line of fire and are hit? No. It's your own fault. And if you wanna get technical the missle didn't kill Talia. The truck swan diving into concrete did. She had the ability to stop the truck long before that.

Now, that being said, Bruce should have realized Talia wasn't going to surrender or stop, but a city and countless lives were at stake. He didn't have a whole lot of options. He couldn't just politely ask her to surrender or do much of anything other than what he did.

[YT]5YZDbeu2li8[/YT]

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Certainly more so with the ladies



Btw, has anyone read up on Wally dissing the Avengers? What'd you guys make of it?

Yeah let's go there. let's really go there.

You're a couple of days late.

 

[shauner111]

I would rather a batman 4 take place between begins and the dark knight. You put in villains like the penguin and the riddler, have more of a crime driven story than a full scale destroy the city plot.

I'm not crazy about your idea, don't really find it necessary to bring the joker back and defeats the purpose of bruce moving on from batman.

You could squeeze in "Edward Nashton/Nygma" or Penguin in there. A lot can happen in a year. Problem is, you would still have to deal with Rachel Dawes hanging over the story at some point and a Batman with no Wayne Manor/Batcave.

I liked that idea of bringing back the Joker but not at the cost of bringing back Wayne. It would defeat the purpose, like you said.

Nolan and Bale both have said that about a year passed inbetween Begins and TDK. And the Joker himself said "Let's wind the clock back a year." Not a whole lot of wiggle room in that time frame.

I've heard speculation that the Banker that fires the shotgun at the joker could be the penguin. Penguin, in his original role, was a mob leader and this guy holds their money in the film. He is shot in the leg and it would account for the penguin's limp, and the joker himself said
"What doesn't kill you makes you stranger", alluding to a change in the bank manager's mental state following the bank robbery. Just fans reading into what is on the screen, but it would have been cool if we could have gotten the penguin in some capacity. Especially since the mob factored so heavily into this trilogy.

Don't remember Nolan or Bale saying that. Joker does but it can still be 6 months to a year. He could be talking in general, as in before Batman bursted on the scene. I still think it's been about 6 months myself so maybe there isn't enough wiggle room.

I've heard of that banker-penguin rumor also but i dont like it. It could make sense if they chose somebody who resembles the Penguin a lot more. If it was an actor who was shorter and heavier i would say HELL YES to that suggestion. But i don't think it would work.

Yeah, it's too bad we didnt get Oswald in some capacity. He's bloody perfect for that kind of world.

I thought the role of Chechen was originally supposed to be Penguin?

Really?? Never heard of that but that's interesting if true. It's too bad he wasn't referenced in TDK (even Black Mask could have used a reference with all that mob stuff going on). But hey maybe they're the perfect characters to imagine going up against Blake in the future.

That's a good dwelling into it. But if the Penguin did exist wouldn't he have been someone who emerged into Gotham after the events of the Joker emerging and what not? Sort of trying to cash-in on the power-vacuum left by the mob and becoming, in essence, a crazier Carmine Falcone?

True. That could have been a good story for him. Or now that Batman is dead to the city, and there's this rebuilding period...perhaps Penguin sees that as an oppurtunity to rise up and earn their trust. Or simply starts his own organization from the ground up, until Robin/Nightwing/Batman (whatever he's gonna call himself) finds out about it.

 

[Alex Logan]

I read the comics Alex. And your useless post is made even more useless by the fact that the 1939/1940 Batman never contradicted himself by having a "I don't kill people" rule, then killing. The story you mention was just another day at the office for early Batman. The only contradiction there was that he admits that he hates killing, even though a year earlier he punches a guy into a vat of acid and just says "A fitting end for his kind".

Wow... you're really something dude.

It only makes comparisons between early Batman and Nolan Batman even more pointless. Early Batman had the distinction of being a Batman in development. Nolan had 70 years of history and what his own Batman has said in the past movies...and this one. And he still contradicts himself.

You totally missed the point of that scene. I guess Batman should have let the bomb go off instead of contradicting himself by talking one man's life.

 

[floreairfoot]

 

[Brother Jack]

I see the death of the truck driver as no different than Harvey Dent's death in TDK, which is to say it was an accidental death on Batman's part. He didn't mean to kill the driver he was trying to stop the truck and the man's death was an unfortunate casualty. Bruce says he's not an executioner in Begins and I don't think he goes against that at any point.

 

[shauner111]

When it comes to the end of the movie, i still think Batman doesn't give a **** at that point. I dont think it's his intention to kill the driver, it never is. But i think at that point? He just doesnt care who gets killed on Talia's side as long as that truck is stopped, the bomb doesn't go off. If it takes the death of 1 horrible person versus millions of people, so be it. The stakes are much higher at the end of the movie than any other encounter for Batman.

It's like Harvey...he's not trying to kill the guy, he's trying to save the kid, and if Harvey dies in the process then so be it.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

After complaining to Selina about killing and taking away her gun, he tosses Talia the shotgun at city hall.

 

[Alex Logan]

Don't remember Nolan or Bale saying that. Joker does but it can still be 6 months to a year. He could be talking in general, as in before Batman bursted on the scene. I still think it's been about 6 months myself so maybe there isn't enough wiggle room.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they never said that. It seems that this issue is up for much debate. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that Batman could have got things up and running enough to make a dent in mob in such a small amout of time.

 

[Alex Logan]

I see the death of the truck driver as no different than Harvey Dent's death in TDK, which is to say it was an accidental death on Batman's part. He didn't mean to kill the driver he was trying to stop the truck and the man's death was an unfortunate casualty. Bruce says he's not an executioner in Begins and I don't think he goes against that at any point.

Exactly.

After complaining to Selina about killing and taking away her gun, he tosses Talia the shotgun at city hall.

The entire city was under seige, a nuclear device was about to go off, millions of lives hung in balance... this is called war. Drastic times call for drastic measures and given the same scenario I would hope that anyone would use the amout of force that is called for. Anyone who's not willing to do that would not survive very long.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

After complaining to Selina about killing and taking away her gun, he tosses Talia the shotgun at city hall.

He also didn't think that Talia would be able to take care of herself otherwise. Catwoman made it extremely apparent she could.

 

[Victarion]

After complaining to Selina about killing and taking away her gun, he tosses Talia the shotgun at city hall.

Considering the circumstances at the time, I didn't have a problem with him giving Talia the gun. On the rooftop, Batman had no idea his city was in danger of being wiped out with a nuke.