The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 147

[Tequilla]

There is apparently 1 hour and 20 minutes that were cut from the film. Add that in to the theatrical cut and you would get about 4 hours of footage. I would say that is a realistic amount considering all the subplots and character arcs/studies happening in the film.

What ? That has been completely dismissed. I think even by the people who invented the 4 hour cut.

 

[JackWhite]

I wish there was a nod to the Joker. I know that it was out of respect for Ledger but is it not more respectful to acknowledge his wonderful work?

John Blake: It's about that night, this night, eight years ago. The night Dent died, the last confirmed sighting of the Batman. He murders those people, takes down two SWAT teams, apprehends the Joker, breaks Dent's neck and then just... vanishes?

I know it was out of respect to Heath, but if Nolan did decide to mention the Joker; the bolded part, is exactly how he should have been mentioned, IMO.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

 

[Laderlappen]

That would have been terrible.

 

[Green Goblin]

How is it a terrible idea? Ledger was fantastic and everyone should acknowledge and remember his work instead of shying away and forgeting about it.

 

[shauner111]

It honestly doesn't bother me that it was mentioned or not. We know that Joker caused everything in TDKR pretty much. TDKR is our proof of Joker's actions. One little mention is barely even a cherry on top. Would I have liked a reference? Sure. But I don't really care.

 

[BatLobster]

I think the 8 years helped smooth that over a bit. If TDKR had taken place only a few months or a year after TDK, then yeah it would've been more jarring. 8 years is enough time for The Joker to fade into the depths of Gotham's subconscious as the proverbial boogeyman.

 

[georgec]

8-year time jump argument take #13419827429 coming in 3...2...1...

 

[Schlosser85]

It did seem like they went out of their way to make no direct mention of The Joker at all.

 

[The Joker]

Blake's reciting of the night Dent died is the scene that makes it stick out like a sore thumb. Joker caused so much mayhem that night. I mean the city was evacuated because of him.

 

[Travesty]

I guess Blake just didn't feel The Joker in his bones and stuff?....

 

[milost]

By TDKR, Joker doesn't exist anymore. It's like they erased him from history. It's a shame too because I'd argue that the Joker in Dark Knight alone (as a single entity) is better than TDKR as a whole!

For the hypothetical folks that live under a rock that didn't see Dark Knight but did see TDKR, you could easily say that the mob offed Rachel and drove Dent into madness with the way it's handled in TDKR. Lack of Joker anything was deliberate.

I'm with most people that think it was lame that the character didn't even get one mention in the entire movie/story. A movie that heavily delves into anniversaries, holidays, "that night, this night exactly 8 years ago" and mentions/includes almost every secondary character (i.e. the non-Alfred/Fox/Gordon gang)from previous films. Bruce's parents, Rachel, Dent, Gordon's family, Mayor Garcia, Crane, Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul, freakin' Fredricks!?! Hell, we even get to see the Batbunker and pretty much everything Bats had used at that point (I saw the Hong Kong cape backpack, the Begins gauntlets, the pneumatic mangler, etc.)

Let's face it, as far as the city goes, the Joker was just as damaging and influential as Batman and Dent, if not moreso. Yet 8 years later, everyone seems to have the latter two on their mind, but not the Joker. Doesn't make sense. Sure, you could say "oh, who cares he was a bad guy, a terrorist that people purposely put out of their mind when he disappeared". But couldn't you make the same case about that "thug", Batman? I mean, how can you bring up the SWAT team take down, Harvey Dent and Rachel every few scenes (and in some cases, with flashbacks), but you can't give ONE nod to the catalyst of pretty much all of that? Ridiculous. We know why they didn't and this has been discussed to death, but from a story standpoint, it is jarring.



- Lame ass "Harvey Dent Day"? Thank the Joker.

- Two-Face in general? Thank the Joker.

- Bruce Wayne moping and feeling like he can never love/live again because of Rachel? Thank the Joker.

- That little, "clever", SWAT take down at the Prewitt building? Because of the Joker.

- Lack of mob or "organized crime" and the Dent act. Thank the Joker.



I'm sure there wasn't a soul in the theater that didn't have the clown prince of crime on their minds during their viewings of TDKR. How could you not? He's mentioned, referenced and established in Batman Begins, he's an integral key player in The Dark Knight. In TDKR? Absolutely nothing. We're really meant to believe that the Joker just laid low after all the stuff he pulled, either dead or kept hidden away in some deep, dark dungeon? No way. He was practically three steps ahead of everyone, including Batman. Look at his MCU shenanigans while he was behind bars. We're really meant to think that the SWAT team successfully scooped him up for the state to deal with? What did he think of the cover up. Imagine his reaction to hearing that Batman took the blame for Dent's crimes. What was his court hearing like? Insanity plea? He's really going to let Batman go into self imposed exile without one more scheme to stab at Gotham's soul? As far as stories go and the Trilogies fictional "history", it's asinine to think a character like this just gets whisked away, never to be seen from again. Especially when we've seen him in these situations before,

There's just too many questions. Lame that we don't get that, but we get inserted stories about Italy vacations, Orphanage visits with supermodels, feelings in your bones, and super exciting clean energy nuclear bomb projects.

Still, I'm kind of glad the Joker wasn't included in any way, shape or form. He's one of the few characters that isn't tainted by TDKR. He remains separated, and in doing so, it sort of acts as this brick wall that separates The Dark Knight from TDKR.

 

[Agent Orange]

Ugh... nvm.

 

[SilentWarriorZ]

Back when nolan was backing from continuing the saga after TDK and the fear of it falling it into wrong hands I Find completing his Trilogy by TDKR was still a good attempt to wrap up an astonishing saga .

 

[BatmanBeyond]

How is it a terrible idea? Ledger was fantastic and everyone should acknowledge and remember his work instead of shying away and forgeting about it.

And who exactly is shying away from admitting Ledger's brilliance in the role because of the Joker not being directly mentioned in TDKR? Ask almost anyone and they'll tell you that Ledger as the Joker was the shining light of TDK, regardless of him getting a mention or not. This is also due to TDK's cultural impact on the general audience/populace and since TDKR didn't have nowhere near as large an impact as TDK, it's safe to say Ledger's extraordinary work in the role won't be forgotten anytime soon, despite the Joker's absence in TDKR.

 

[BatLobster]

lol, milost. "Here's every reason Joker should've been mentioned, but thankfully he wasn't cause TDKR sucked anyway and isn't worthy of his name." Only you could be that thoroughly brutal in your attacks on the movie .

Unrelated, I caught the the last 30 minutes or so of TDKR on Cinemax last night. I've haven't watched the movie in months, and lately I've been really stressed at work, working 13-14 hour days. I tell you what, nothing felt better than lying down in bed with my girlfriend on a Friday night and watching some TDKR after a long week. It's almost like I was seeing it with fresh eyes after being in such a haze with work, and all the Batfleck and Batman vs. Superman hoopla. The Nolan trilogy is already starting to feel like the past, and it's aging like a friggin' fine wine. The production value in TDKR especially is just staggering. I could freeze frame almost any given shot and put it on my wall.

Anyway, it was just nice to see some of TDKR again with fresh eyes. All the debates and arguments around this movie kind of got in my head a bit and kind of got in the way of the experience of simply suspending disbelief and enjoying the movie. It was starting to carry some baggage for me since it became this thing that I was spending energy defending. After finally taking a break form hardcore debating the movie, it felt great to just watch it on a pure enjoyment level again.

 

[shauner111]

lol, milost. "Here's every reason Joker should've been mentioned, but thankfully he wasn't cause TDKR sucked anyway and isn't worthy of his name." Only you could be that thoroughly brutal in your attacks on the movie .

Unrelated, I caught the the last 30 minutes or so of TDKR on Cinemax last night. I've haven't watched the movie in months, and lately I've been really stressed at work, working 13-14 hour days. I tell you what, nothing felt better than lying down in bed with my girlfriend on a Friday night and watching some TDKR after a long week. It's almost like I was seeing it with fresh eyes after being in such a haze with work, and all the Batfleck and Batman vs. Superman hoopla. The Nolan trilogy is already starting to feel like the past, and it's aging like a friggin' fine wine. The production value in TDKR especially is just staggering. I could freeze frame almost any given shot and put it on my wall.

Anyway, it was just nice to see some of TDKR again with fresh eyes. All the debates and arguments around this movie kind of got in my head a bit and kind of got in the way of the experience of simply suspending disbelief and enjoying the movie. It was starting to carry some baggage for me since it became this thing that I was spending energy defending. After finally taking a break form hardcore debating the movie, it felt great to just watch it on a pure enjoyment level again.

 

[georgec]

I revisit the movie every month or so, just to watch certain bits on impulse.

 

[Shikamaru]

Source? I don't believe that.

The shooting script is 165 pages. General screenwriting rule is 1 page= 1 minute of screentime so it works out pretty much perfectly.

No way did Nolan chop down a 4 hour movie into a 2:45 movie. A 3 hour movie down to a 2:45 movie, possibly. He's not that wasteful a filmmaker to shoot an extra 1 hour and 20 minutes that wasn't going to make the cut. That's why every movie he makes finishes ahead of schedule and under budget.

I'm sure there was a very long assembly cut with all the action they shot, but that's about it. I highly doubt there are all these secret scenes that weren't in the script with actual character beats.

I never said that to be a fact. I said apparently there is that much from the film that was cut and that that is a realistic amount. Obviously we don't know for sure (and never will because Nolan hates admitting that he ever cut out a scene from any of his films), but when you consider everything happening in the film for a 2:45 movie, I don't think it's out of the blue to imagine 1:20 was cut out. I'm not saying that 1:20 was indeed/definitely cut out; just that I don't think it's that big of an unrealistic possibility. It's not even an unrealistic possibility for director's cuts in general. The Watchmen director's cut was 4 hours long, maybe even a bit longer.

No one here knows for sure how much was cut but it has to be at least 30 minutes in my personal opinion. We know for a fact that Bane's origin was entirely cut out as was Bruce getting back into Gotham. Those are the only scenes we know for sure got cut out. Those would have to be 10 - 20 minutes right there. Plus, I don't see Nolan as the type of guy to change the main antagonist in the third act of the film only to kill off that new antagonist literally two minutes later. Knowing Nolan, Talia would have stuck around for a few more minutes, maybe even have her "I hated my father until you killed him" motivation more explained and analyzed.

Also, how was your trip to my backyard?

 

[shauner111]

There's no way an extra 1 hour and 20 minutes was shot. Not a chance.

Bruce getting back to Gotham may not have been shot at all. Just a quick scene on the page. Bane's origin? I bet it was one scene of Bane doing training with his prototype mask on.

 

[The Joker]

By TDKR, Joker doesn't exist anymore. It's like they erased him from history. It's a shame too because I'd argue that the Joker in Dark Knight alone (as a single entity) is better than TDKR as a whole!

For the hypothetical folks that live under a rock that didn't see Dark Knight but did see TDKR, you could easily say that the mob offed Rachel and drove Dent into madness with the way it's handled in TDKR. Lack of Joker anything was deliberate.

I'm with most people that think it was lame that the character didn't even get one mention in the entire movie/story. A movie that heavily delves into anniversaries, holidays, "that night, this night exactly 8 years ago" and mentions/includes almost every secondary character (i.e. the non-Alfred/Fox/Gordon gang)from previous films. Bruce's parents, Rachel, Dent, Gordon's family, Mayor Garcia, Crane, Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul, freakin' Fredricks!?! Hell, we even get to see the Batbunker and pretty much everything Bats had used at that point (I saw the Hong Kong cape backpack, the Begins gauntlets, the pneumatic mangler, etc.)

Let's face it, as far as the city goes, the Joker was just as damaging and influential as Batman and Dent, if not moreso. Yet 8 years later, everyone seems to have the latter two on their mind, but not the Joker. Doesn't make sense. Sure, you could say "oh, who cares he was a bad guy, a terrorist that people purposely put out of their mind when he disappeared". But couldn't you make the same case about that "thug", Batman? I mean, how can you bring up the SWAT team take down, Harvey Dent and Rachel every few scenes (and in some cases, with flashbacks), but you can't give ONE nod to the catalyst of pretty much all of that? Ridiculous. We know why they didn't and this has been discussed to death, but from a story standpoint, it is jarring.



- Lame ass "Harvey Dent Day"? Thank the Joker.

- Two-Face in general? Thank the Joker.

- Bruce Wayne moping and feeling like he can never love/live again because of Rachel? Thank the Joker.

- That little, "clever", SWAT take down at the Prewitt building? Because of the Joker.

- Lack of mob or "organized crime" and the Dent act. Thank the Joker.



I'm sure there wasn't a soul in the theater that didn't have the clown prince of crime on their minds during their viewings of TDKR. How could you not? He's mentioned, referenced and established in Batman Begins, he's an integral key player in The Dark Knight. In TDKR? Absolutely nothing. We're really meant to believe that the Joker just laid low after all the stuff he pulled, either dead or kept hidden away in some deep, dark dungeon? No way. He was practically three steps ahead of everyone, including Batman. Look at his MCU shenanigans while he was behind bars. We're really meant to think that the SWAT team successfully scooped him up for the state to deal with? What did he think of the cover up. Imagine his reaction to hearing that Batman took the blame for Dent's crimes. What was his court hearing like? Insanity plea? He's really going to let Batman go into self imposed exile without one more scheme to stab at Gotham's soul? As far as stories go and the Trilogies fictional "history", it's asinine to think a character like this just gets whisked away, never to be seen from again. Especially when we've seen him in these situations before,

There's just too many questions. Lame that we don't get that, but we get inserted stories about Italy vacations, Orphanage visits with supermodels, feelings in your bones, and super exciting clean energy nuclear bomb projects.

Still, I'm kind of glad the Joker wasn't included in any way, shape or form. He's one of the few characters that isn't tainted by TDKR. He remains separated, and in doing so, it sort of acts as this brick wall that separates The Dark Knight from TDKR.

 

[BatLobster]

Also, how was your trip to my backyard?

It was great! I did all the fun touristy stuff, went to Canada's Wonderland (and Niagara Falls before that), the Hockey HoF, CN Tower, had some good Poutine etc. My girlfriend is a real foodie so we went to some cool places to eat like Bar Isabel and WVRST. I even stopped by Fan Expo on Saturday. I would've PM'd you to see if you were around, but unfortunately I had pretty much 0 phone service once I crossed the border.

Thanks again for the recommendations.

There's no way an extra 1 hour and 20 minutes was shot. Not a chance.

Bruce getting back to Gotham may not have been shot at all. Just a quick scene on the page. Bane's origin? I bet it was one scene of Bane doing training with his prototype mask on.

Bruce getting back to Gotham was in the script? I don't recall it even being there. The Bane origin thing was just a quick image over Talia's voiceover, like we got in the movie. We just saw him bandaged up in the Pit rather than training with the League.

 

[Shikamaru]

When the film came out, a lot of articles reported that the Joker was thrown in Arkham after he was caught and remained as the only patient there even years after Arkham was shut down. Or he was buried in the depths of Blackgate and was the only one to not have been freed by Bane due to him being hidden and separated from the rest of the prisoners. I never looked into those so I don't know whether or not they're true.

Regarding the Joker, for the longest time I was just as annoyed as Milost and other people over Nolan's decision to not reference the Joker and pretend like he doesn't even exist. However, I've recently really warmed up to the idea. It was mainly for two reasons.

First, as milost said, I think that would have hurt the Joker a bit for all those that were disappointed by TDKR. Like Milost said in a different thread, a lot of the characters that came back from the previous films did not feel like the same characters to him other than Lucius, something that I agree with. It's nice to go back to TDK and enjoy Ledger's performance without thinking "Too bad he does this in the next film" or "Too bad he was shot in the head at the end of TDK according to TDKR" or "Too bad he reformed after the 8 years and is currently just a normal Gotham citizen" or any of that. I always see people on this site saying things like "What an awesome ending to TDK, too bad he goes home and quits after" or "what a great way to cover up Dent's death, too bad the reveal doesn't pay off in the next film". I think it's nice to have the Joker immune from those types of "too bad" statements.

Second, I feel as if Nolan not even referencing the Joker was Nolan's way of not treating his audience as if they were idiots. Every single person going into the film knew the reason as to why the Joker wasn't there. I feel like it was Nolan's way of saying "Yes, I want him to be here, he should be here, but he sadly isn't. It is what it is, people." They could have easily explained what happened to the Joker (i.e. a SWAT lost his temper and shot him in the head that night) but any explanation, regardless of how much it made sense in the context of the narrative, would have made us say "No, that's not really why he isn't here. You wrote that in entirely because Heath died and you know it."

Again, I agree with everyone saying that it doesn't make sense at all but it really doesn't bother me anymore.

 

[BatLobster]

Totally agreed with the second part Shika. Nolan was respecting Ledger and the audience's intelligence. Any explanation they wrote would just come across as them trying to find some story logic to explain away the fact that Heath Ledger is no longer with us. That would be jarring too. It was sort of a lose/lose situation.

 

[Shikamaru]

It was great! I did all the fun touristy stuff, went to Canada's Wonderland (and Niagara Falls before that), the Hockey HoF, CN Tower, had some good Poutine etc. My girlfriend is a real foodie so we went to some cool places to eat like Bar Isabel and WVRST. I even stopped by Fan Expo on Saturday. I would've PM'd you to see if you were around, but unfortunately I had pretty much 0 phone service once I crossed the border.

Thanks again for the recommendations.

You're welcome.

Chances are you probably passed by me without even knowing. I live right next to Canada's Wonderland and I was also at FanExpo on Saturday. Small world .