The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 147

[shauner111]

Why do you need a nod? We watched tdk, we know what Joker did. Even the general audience know because he was the main attraction. Of course the ending of TDK needs to be revisited and be a theme, but Joker doesn't need that. He caused all the anarchy that led to all the Harvey Dent stuff + where Batman ended up. The proof is in the pudding. In TDKR. Nolan doesn't have to spell that out for anyone.

One mention of the Joker isn't going to change a single thing. I know what he did in the previous film, and so did billions of other people it seems. If anything it gives Joker this mysterious quality. The whole thing reeks of it. Like Joker popped up on that street in front of the bank heist, and vanished into the night (into an asylum or not) as if he did what he set out to do. Cause anarchy. Like a devil of sorts. Then 8 years on, and people don't talk about him. Maybe they don't want to, or maybe it's simply Nolan not writing it in. But regardless..it's cool to me. Like BatLobster said he's like the boogeyman. It now feels to me like Gotham City wants to go about their lives believing that he was just a bad dream.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

Before we knew about the eight year gap I was hoping for some mentioning of the Joker's trial - on TV, in the newspapers, by characters talking about it. And I always wanted to see a huge riot in the streets of Gotham when the court decides to sent the Joker to the rebulit Arkham - and not onto the electric chair.

 

[JackWhite]

Speaking of what was cut or not cut from the film, wasn't there an article somewhere where Nolan mentioned Batman using his status as a murderer to his advantage? Maybe it's just foggy memory but I could have sworn that was a small plot point that never made it into the film.

 

[Green Goblin]

Wonder how Bruce spend his days during the 8 year gap.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Just watched The Dark Knight Rises on Sky Movies tonight again... damn, I could sit and pick holes in it... but it gets me everytime. It's just so powerful, flaws and all. An amazing movie.

Especially now that the ball is rolling on the new live action Batman, it really makes me appreciate everything Nolan has done.

I'm going to miss Bale, Caine and Oldman especially.

 

[BatLobster]

Speaking of what was cut or not cut from the film, wasn't there an article somewhere where Nolan mentioned Batman using his status as a murderer to his advantage? Maybe it's just foggy memory but I could have sworn that was a small plot point that never made it into the film.

I don't think so. This has been brought up before but as someone who reads every interview with Nolan I can get my hands on, I never recall anything of the sort being said.

Just watched The Dark Knight Rises on Sky Movies tonight again... damn, I could sit and pick holes in it... but it gets me everytime. It's just so powerful, flaws and all. An amazing movie.

Especially now that the ball is rolling on the new live action Batman.

I'm going to miss Bale, Caine and Oldman especially.

I had a very similar experience last night catching the last 30 minutes or so of the movie on Cinemax. The nostalgia is already starting to set in a bit now that the wheels are in motion for the future of the franchise.

 

[JackWhite]

Alright. Thanks for clearing that up Batlobsterrises.

Yeah, I haven't watched the trilogy in a few months in preparation for the UCE of the trilogy that's coming out later this month. I tried watching TDKR a month and a half ago, but turned it off during Bane's tirade at Blackgate, lol. I felt really bad, but I think it was a combination of me being really sleepy that night and not having my surround sound on which made me turn it off.

 

[Green Goblin]

Why the hell were the citizens of Gotham cool with a Nuclear Bomb in their city and rioted to support the masked man who put it there?

 

[Travesty]

I tried watching TDKR a month and a half ago, but turned it off during Bane's tirade at Blackgate, lol. I felt really bad, but I think it was a combination of me being really sleepy that night and not having my surround sound on which made me turn it off.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Why the hell were the citizens of Gotham cool with a Nuclear Bomb in their city and rioted to support the masked man who put it there?

The nuclear bomb didn't exist u.til Bane created it, after he siezed the city. The people weren't cool with it, he insinuated it was only a deterrent against the outside world and corrupt of the city.

 

[JackWhite]

 

[Victarion]

Turns out Bane lied about something.

 

[The Joker]

http://news.moviefone.com/2013/08/27/the-dark-knight-voted-best-sequel/

TDK voted best sequel of all time based on a poll with hundreds of thousands of votes. Empire Strikes Back came in a close second they say.

 

[JackWhite]

http://news.moviefone.com/2013/08/27/the-dark-knight-voted-best-sequel/

TDK voted best sequel of all time based on a poll with hundreds of thousands of votes. Empire Strikes Back came in a close second they say.

Beating out Empire? Impressive to say the least. Both TDK and TESB are in my top five favorite films of all time.

 

[The Joker]

Five years later TDK still has the staying power to top these kinds of huge polls. It makes me believe more than ever that it wasn't just a 2008 fad. The greatness of that movie is staying.

 

[Victarion]

Very nice.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

Spoiler

By TDKR, Joker doesn't exist anymore. It's like they erased him from history. It's a shame too because I'd argue that the Joker in Dark Knight alone (as a single entity) is better than TDKR as a whole!

For the hypothetical folks that live under a rock that didn't see Dark Knight but did see TDKR, you could easily say that the mob offed Rachel and drove Dent into madness with the way it's handled in TDKR. Lack of Joker anything was deliberate.

I'm with most people that think it was lame that the character didn't even get one mention in the entire movie/story. A movie that heavily delves into anniversaries, holidays, "that night, this night exactly 8 years ago" and mentions/includes almost every secondary character (i.e. the non-Alfred/Fox/Gordon gang)from previous films. Bruce's parents, Rachel, Dent, Gordon's family, Mayor Garcia, Crane, Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul, freakin' Fredricks!?! Hell, we even get to see the Batbunker and pretty much everything Bats had used at that point (I saw the Hong Kong cape backpack, the Begins gauntlets, the pneumatic mangler, etc.)

Let's face it, as far as the city goes, the Joker was just as damaging and influential as Batman and Dent, if not moreso. Yet 8 years later, everyone seems to have the latter two on their mind, but not the Joker. Doesn't make sense. Sure, you could say "oh, who cares he was a bad guy, a terrorist that people purposely put out of their mind when he disappeared". But couldn't you make the same case about that "thug", Batman? I mean, how can you bring up the SWAT team take down, Harvey Dent and Rachel every few scenes (and in some cases, with flashbacks), but you can't give ONE nod to the catalyst of pretty much all of that? Ridiculous. We know why they didn't and this has been discussed to death, but from a story standpoint, it is jarring.



- Lame ass "Harvey Dent Day"? Thank the Joker.

- Two-Face in general? Thank the Joker.

- Bruce Wayne moping and feeling like he can never love/live again because of Rachel? Thank the Joker.

- That little, "clever", SWAT take down at the Prewitt building? Because of the Joker.

- Lack of mob or "organized crime" and the Dent act. Thank the Joker.



I'm sure there wasn't a soul in the theater that didn't have the clown prince of crime on their minds during their viewings of TDKR. How could you not? He's mentioned, referenced and established in Batman Begins, he's an integral key player in The Dark Knight. In TDKR? Absolutely nothing. We're really meant to believe that the Joker just laid low after all the stuff he pulled, either dead or kept hidden away in some deep, dark dungeon? No way. He was practically three steps ahead of everyone, including Batman. Look at his MCU shenanigans while he was behind bars. We're really meant to think that the SWAT team successfully scooped him up for the state to deal with? What did he think of the cover up. Imagine his reaction to hearing that Batman took the blame for Dent's crimes. What was his court hearing like? Insanity plea? He's really going to let Batman go into self imposed exile without one more scheme to stab at Gotham's soul? As far as stories go and the Trilogies fictional "history", it's asinine to think a character like this just gets whisked away, never to be seen from again. Especially when we've seen him in these situations before,

There's just too many questions. Lame that we don't get that, but we get inserted stories about Italy vacations, Orphanage visits with supermodels, feelings in your bones, and super exciting clean energy nuclear bomb projects.

Still, I'm kind of glad the Joker wasn't included in any way, shape or form. He's one of the few characters that isn't tainted by TDKR. He remains separated, and in doing so, it sort of acts as this brick wall that separates The Dark Knight from TDKR.

When the film came out, a lot of articles reported that the Joker was thrown in Arkham after he was caught and remained as the only patient there even years after Arkham was shut down. Or he was buried in the depths of Blackgate and was the only one to not have been freed by Bane due to him being hidden and separated from the rest of the prisoners. I never looked into those so I don't know whether or not they're true.

Regarding the Joker, for the longest time I was just as annoyed as Milost and other people over Nolan's decision to not reference the Joker and pretend like he doesn't even exist. However, I've recently really warmed up to the idea. It was mainly for two reasons.

First, as milost said, I think that would have hurt the Joker a bit for all those that were disappointed by TDKR. Like Milost said in a different thread, a lot of the characters that came back from the previous films did not feel like the same characters to him other than Lucius, something that I agree with. It's nice to go back to TDK and enjoy Ledger's performance without thinking "Too bad he does this in the next film" or "Too bad he was shot in the head at the end of TDK according to TDKR" or "Too bad he reformed after the 8 years and is currently just a normal Gotham citizen" or any of that. I always see people on this site saying things like "What an awesome ending to TDK, too bad he goes home and quits after" or "what a great way to cover up Dent's death, too bad the reveal doesn't pay off in the next film". I think it's nice to have the Joker immune from those types of "too bad" statements.

Second, I feel as if Nolan not even referencing the Joker was Nolan's way of not treating his audience as if they were idiots. Every single person going into the film knew the reason as to why the Joker wasn't there. I feel like it was Nolan's way of saying "Yes, I want him to be here, he should be here, but he sadly isn't. It is what it is, people." They could have easily explained what happened to the Joker (i.e. a SWAT lost his temper and shot him in the head that night) but any explanation, regardless of how much it made sense in the context of the narrative, would have made us say "No, that's not really why he isn't here. You wrote that in entirely because Heath died and you know it."

Again, I agree with everyone saying that it doesn't make sense at all but it really doesn't bother me anymore.

 

[Agent Orange]

http://news.moviefone.com/2013/08/27/the-dark-knight-voted-best-sequel/

TDK voted best sequel of all time based on a poll with hundreds of thousands of votes. Empire Strikes Back came in a close second they say.

Only four comments slagging the poll results underneath the article? Interesting. I'm surprised that this series' loud detractors haven't bombarded it yet.

 

[Green Goblin]

Spider-Man 2 should be there.

 

[BatLobster]

Five years later TDK still has the staying power to top these kinds of huge polls. It makes me believe more than ever that it wasn't just a 2008 fad. The greatness of that movie is staying.

I think it'll still be celebrated 20-30 years down the road and maybe even beyond. It's a classic.

 

[shauner111]

Look at it this way. Godfather Part 2, Empire Strikes Back and Terminator 2 are still remembered and talked about ALL the time as sequels. One is 40 years old, the other over 30 years old. And Terminator is a little over 20 years old.

It's only been 5 years since TDK. In 50 years from now people will still speak highly about it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Woah. A superhero film beating out Empire is not something you usually see. There is nothing bigger than Star Wars when it comes to the film medium. I think this really shows what a long way comic book movies and superheroes have come. You have films like TDK and Avengers - both CBM's completely different from one another - breaking box office records and get high critical acclaim. You have more unknown properties like Kick-Ass and GOTG gettings films. You have games like Arkham Asylum and Arkham City teaching mainstream popularity with gamers and becoming one of the top gaming franchises. Gone are the days when superheroes were brushed off as being only for kids. Arguably, superheroes haven't been this big since the Golden Age in the 1940's.

 

[Green Goblin]

How I rank the sequels

TDK
The Empire Strikes Back
Godfather 2
X-Men 2
Spider-Man 2
Terminator 2
......
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......
......
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IM2

 

[shauner111]

Godfather 2 kills Empire and might even top TDK for me. But im glad TDK is getting all the recognition!

 

[Travesty]

I dunno, I think Look Who's Talking Too is up there for best movie sequel of all time. I mean, both Bruce Willis and Roseanne teaming up together? That's a force to be reckoned with!