The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[milost]

We get that great monumental Batman/Gordon moment when Bruce reveals his identity at the end.

And "B-b-b-Bruce Wayne!!?" comments in 5...4...3...

That was an awful moment, BatLobster.

All that it was missing was a flashback to Batman Begins, just in case the audience was too stupid to know what Batman was talking about.

































Oh, wait.

 

[BatLobster]

That was an awful moment, BatLobster.

Oh, ok then. Wasn't aware.

 

[C. Lee]

Bruce Wayne sees his parents....his loving, caring, understanding, nurturing parents....murdered in front of him.....and he becomes an obsessed determined focused force of justice sworn to stopping crime and scaring the bejeesus out of criminals.....

Bruce Wayne sees his childhood friend....his childhood friend who does not agree with his actions, can't be in a relationship with him because of his actions, and who is engaged to a good decent lawful strong man....he hears his childhood friend is murdered....and he curls up in a ball and quits.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yes... that doesn't make sense to me. Tragedy drives Bruce. It doesn't make him quit.

 

[milost]

^^Just because it was highlighted in a teaser trailer doesn't automatically mean it had to be one of the most important scenes in the movie. In fact it's good trailer editing 101 to make a scene seem more important than it actually is as a means of misdirecting the audience.

Forget the teaser. All I stated was that the teaser had a sentimental feeling to it that the final product ended up lacking.

So, you think it's cool that Blake and Bruce (and Blake and Alfred for a few seconds) get a substantial scene together, you know, the "Orphans, eyes and dem bones" one but freaking Batman and Gordon meeting for the first time in 8 years after their pact in Dark Knight should just be quickly blown off? That's okay? You prefer, "B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-bruce Wayne?" after Gordon said he didn't care, to old friends meeting after all these problems?

Insane. Screw Blake. He was nowhere near as influential or important as Dent, and Dark Knight plays up the "mob bustin' triumvirate" quite well. I think it's maddening to throw in a character with that much knowledge and power without any sort of build up. And to take precedence over two important main characters that have had a history since film 1? Frustrating. I don't care what the teaser may have tried to fool audiences into thinking, the first scene between Batman and Gordon should have been more impactful than it actually ended up being. You don't just jump in there and speed through it (which is actually what Bruce does). As someone who's followed the two since Begins with the stapler gun and the big speech to Jimmy Gordon at the end of Dark Knight, that scene is a huge let down.

"Batman must come back" is huge, play that up. Play up the fact that Gordon could die from his wounds. Play up the idea that maybe these two feel that they were wrong for lying and covering up Dent. Play up the toll it's taken on the two. Don't let it fall on the shoulders of this freaking guy!

He even gets the bulk of emotions of the actual Dent reveal! "Oh Gordon, I'm so mad that you lied you dirty, dirty man". Buzzzzzkill.

 

[C. Lee]

We get that great monumental Batman/Gordon moment when Bruce reveals his identity at the end.

And "B-b-b-Bruce Wayne!!?" comments in 5...4...3...

To me....the other movies made it look like Gordon knew that Wayne was Batman....when they show that he didn't have the slightest idea in TDKR.....I shook my head in disbelief.....it took Gordon down to me.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah.


To be fair, a lot of the incarnations of Alfred don't "approve" of Batman's crusade, or at the very least want him to live a "happy life". This goes all the way back to the Batman '89 Alfred ("I have no wish to fill my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons.").

Then recently, Arkham Origins Alfred as well (I love how Batman throws it back in his face, Walter White style, and it puts Alfred's nagging to rest).

But TDKR Alfred takes it one step too far. All the other Alfreds put up and shut up and understand the importance of Batman and are right there with him from helping him sabotage the Penguin to encouraging him to go to Blackgate and take down Bane. Alfred in TDKR? He cries and leaves him. He claims that Bruce should give up his suicidal mission, give away his equipment and resources and let "the cops handle it". Well, seeing what happens in TDKR, Alfred was dead wrong. Wayne's resources are stolen and the cops, as with all Batman movies for the most part, are completely helpless (trapped for 5 months).

Alfred didn't deserve a happy ending in TDKR. I hate to say that because I love Michael Caine and loved Alfred in Begins and The Dark Knight. Especially the scene where he hands Bruce the cowl and states, "what we stand for/they'll have to make do with you". But Alfred in TDKR? He needed to die. That forced, contrived cafe dream/flashback is one of the worst things in the movie. The fact that Alfred spills the beans and leaves, only to come back bawling at the end of the film after Batman SAVED everyone (and was the only one capable, as usual)? He didn't deserve to be rewarded.

WTF? So Alfred needs to die because he cares about the boy/man he raised and doesn't want him to die at the hands of Bane or keep living his life in depression. And because he's sad that Bruce died?? You are one strange cookie.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I was watching TDK the other day and thought that same thing... when Gordon is telling Bruce "that was a brave thing you did" and "you weren't trying to protect the van?" I thought "Gordon is onto him."

 

[BatLobster]

Forget the teaser. All I stated was that the teaser had a sentimental feeling to it that the final product ended up lacking.

So, you think it's cool that Blake and Bruce (and Blake and Alfred for a few seconds) get a substantial scene together, you know, the "Orphans, eyes and dem bones" one but freaking Batman and Gordon meeting for the first time in 8 years after their pact in Dark Knight should just be quickly blown off? That's okay? You prefer, "B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-bruce Wayne?" after Gordon said he didn't care, to old friends meeting after all these problems?

Insane. Screw Blake. He was nowhere near as influential or important as Dent, and Dark Knight plays up the "mob bustin' triumvirate" quite well. I think it's maddening to throw in a character with that much knowledge and power without any sort of build up. And to take precedence over two important main characters that have had a history since film 1? Frustrating. I don't care what the teaser may have tried to fool audiences into thinking, the first scene between Batman and Gordon should have been more impactful than it actually ended up being. You don't just jump in there and speed through it (which is actually what Bruce does). As someone who's followed the two since Begins with the stapler gun and the big speech to Jimmy Gordon at the end of Dark Knight, that scene is a huge let down.

"Batman must come back" is huge, play that up. Play up the fact that Gordon could die from his wounds. Play up the idea that maybe these two feel that they were wrong for lying. Don't let it fall on the shoulders of this freaking guy!

Sometimes less is more. I still felt something from that scene, maybe you didn't and hey- different strokes for different folks. Nolan has been called out for having a "cold" and rushed editing style since Batman Begins. I think Bale's acting is incredible through the ski mask there. The look he gives when he says "The Batman wasn't needed anymore...we won." It's like exactly how I would imagine TAS Batman putting it to Jim if he had been in a situation like that where he'd gone underground after some major stuff went down. You can hear Bruce's sense of longing for the "glory days" there, and almost like he's kind of lying to himself even because he too knows the victory was based on a lie. You get a lot out of a little there. And I take the scene like Jim is kind of in a semi-conscious morphine induced state, rambling about how the evil they tried to bury is literally underground. I loved the symbolism of that.

I didn't need to see Bruce climbing in through the window and awkwardly waking up Gordon for the scene to emotionally land.

But hey, I'd gladly watch 4 hour versions of ALL of these movies if they existed.

Also, I still maintain that Oldman's delivery of the "Bruce Wayne" line was entirely ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily contradict any suspicions he may or may not have had 8 years ago. The delivery could just as easily be read as, "So it was Bruce Wayne after all." It's not this exaggerated "Wha wha wha???" thing that some have made it out to be.

 

[ThePhantasm]

WTF? So Alfred needs to die because he cares about the boy/man he raised and doesn't want him to die at the hands of Bane or keep living his life in depression. And because he's sad that Bruce died?? You are one strange cookie.

Alfred wasn't afraid that Bruce would die in BB and TDK? Alfred cares about Bruce AND cares about what the Batman stands for, just like Bruce does. His desire to protect Bruce is much more complex than just ragging on him to quit all the time. You can't forget the previous movies in which Alfred is proud of what Bruce is doing... "the Wayne legacy is more than bricks and mortar, sir."

In this movie Alfred didn't even try to sympathize with Bruce, or understand that he wanted to protect Gotham. It was because he had somehow decided that Rachel's death had crippled Bruce to the point of making him almost suicidal (!) (Alfred was afraid Bruce wanted to die out there) whereas his parents death didn't have that effect. Its a bizarre insight that is accurate in the film but by all accounts shouldn't be.

 

[shauner111]

Bruce Wayne sees his parents....his loving, caring, understanding, nurturing parents....murdered in front of him.....and he becomes an obsessed determined focused force of justice sworn to stopping crime and scaring the bejeesus out of criminals.....

Bruce Wayne sees his childhood friend....his childhood friend who does not agree with his actions, can't be in a relationship with him because of his actions, and who is engaged to a good decent lawful strong man....he hears his childhood friend is murdered....and he curls up in a ball and quits.

Im sorry but this never happened. What are you even talking about?

 

[milost]

Bruce Wayne sees his parents....his loving, caring, understanding, nurturing parents....murdered in front of him.....and he becomes an obsessed determined focused force of justice sworn to stopping crime and scaring the bejeesus out of criminals.....

Bruce Wayne sees his childhood friend....his childhood friend who does not agree with his actions, can't be in a relationship with him because of his actions, and who is engaged to a good decent lawful strong man....he hears his childhood friend is murdered....and he curls up in a ball and quits.

Agreed. Not only has this Bruce Wayne's parents been killed, but so has his woman. I don't care if the mob is dead and the only crime in Gotham is "overdue library books", Batman is going to find something to seek justice on. I don't care what your original intent is. You don't train and devote your 8 years of your life to something that you plan on wrapping up in a year. That would be like, "I'm going to school to be a doctor . . . only to quit after I inspire someone with my first surgery". It's upsetting that after all this pain and suffering, Bruce would still think, "well, me and the Joker crippled the mob, the lie worked, I'm done". I know the mob was a huge thing in Begins, but you're telling me that Batman doesn't care about or stop random crimes like the ones his loved ones have died from? C'mon. I don't care if the cover up did work, that isn't going to prevent mugging, rapes, extortion, drugs, etc.

Still,

*Cues all the TDKR defenders jumping on C. Lee stating that Bruce didn't quit because of Rachel, but really quit because of a . . . . failed clean energy project and because he 'wasn't needed'"*

 

[shauner111]

Alfred wasn't afraid that Bruce would die in BB and TDK? Alfred cares about Bruce AND cares about what the Batman stands for, just like Bruce does. His desire to protect Bruce is much more complex than just ragging on him to quit all the time. You can't forget the previous movies in which Alfred is proud of what Bruce is doing... "the Wayne legacy is more than bricks and mortar, sir."

Of course not because people change. That was the beginning of the crusade. Alfred never thought he would be like this 8 years later. More depressed than ever. Do you guys even pay attention to the movie when you watch it?

 

[Shikamaru]

Yes... that doesn't make sense to me. Tragedy drives Bruce. It doesn't make him quit.

Exactly. Bruce is a master at turning tragedy into motivation. The death of Rachel only pushed him further on the path he was already on. Rachel was more of an obstacle stalling him away from fully embracing Batman as opposed to someone who would suppress Batman.

 

[milost]

To me....the other movies made it look like Gordon knew that Wayne was Batman....when they show that he didn't have the slightest idea in TDKR.....I shook my head in disbelief.....it took Gordon down to me.

I was watching TDK the other day and thought that same thing... when Gordon is telling Bruce "that was a brave thing you did" and "you weren't trying to protect the van?" I thought "Gordon is onto him."

Yup. I mentioned this a few weeks ago in this very section.

The only thing Gordon didn't do was wink at the audience in Dark Knight. I don't care if you "don't care who the Batman is". You're a cop, you're going to put things together. Especially after their first encounter and this Batman is telling you to "look for my sign", "Rachel Dawes is brave enough to prosecute" and his first inclination is to save Rachel Dawes (he is visibly shaken by this news Joker gives him, she's clearly not an ordinary hostage to him).

Gordon wasn't an idiot . . . until TDKR.

 

[BatLobster]

*Cues all the TDKR defenders jumping on C. Lee stating that Bruce didn't quit because of Rachel, but really quit because of a . . . . failed clean energy project and because he 'wasn't needed'"*[/B]

It's not even worth it at this point. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, that's the other thing. Batman chooses to go after Rachel, right after Joker is referring to her as Batman's romantic interest? And right after Batman saved her at Bruce Wayne's penthouse? Gordon's not an idiot. He watched the whole interrogation.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The movie goes out of its way to show that Bruce did not quit merely because he "wasn't needed." That was just his excuse. He quit because of Rachel. Gordon, by contrast, NEVER quit, even in peacetime he was still in war mode. And Gordon isn't even as driven as Batman.

 

[milost]

Of course not because people change. That was the beginning of the crusade. Alfred never thought he would be like this 8 years later. More depressed than ever. Do you guys even pay attention to the movie when you watch it?

They change when they're retconned to change for a new vision.

I also don't remember Alfred pining to see Bruce be at a cafe in Florence Italy during Batman Begins. Not. One. Single. Time. I do however remember him telling Bruce to "borrow the Rolls if he'd like and to bring it back with a full tank". I also remember him being in full support of Bruce taking this mission on and quipping about his own safety, not necessarily Rachel's. Only time doubt came into play was when he pancaked cop cars on the evening news, and even then, no Italy vacations were mentioned.

That little "cafe dream" oddity forced it's way in there. So yeah, people do change. It's called bad writing.

 

[C. Lee]

Im sorry but this never happened. What are you even talking about?

There was this movie called BATMAN BEGINS. In it....this kid called Bruce Wayne sees his parents murdered in front of him. He becomes a stilted, closed off young man. He then trains his body, learns all types of ninja stuff and things from convicts before he starts dressing up as a BATman fighting criminals.

In this other movie called THE DARK KNIGHT......his childhood friend who he has an immature childlike crush on (let's face it, he is in his 30's, has never dated or even kissed her, but he's jealous because she is engaged to a very nice, successful, extremely well liked man) get's murdered (not in front of his eyes like his parents, but he sorta hears it over the phone) and he freaks out....and then in the third movie called THE DARK KNIGHT RISES it starts off by saying he had not been out as Batman for 8 years.

 

[BatLobster]

But still...all of that is 8 years into the past come TDKR time. Maybe Gordon was all but a piece of damning evidence away from knowing the truth in TDK...

But after 8 Batman-less years of burying the past and the truth? Of deciding he doesn't want to know? It could fade. People lie to themselves all the time.

The movie goes out of its way to show that Bruce did not quit merely because he "wasn't needed." That was just his excuse. He quit because of Rachel. Gordon, by contrast, NEVER quit, even in peacetime he was still in war mode. And Gordon isn't even as driven as Batman.

I honestly don't think the film supports that theory. If that's true, why was he still trying to help the city as Bruce Wayne for 5 years post-TDK? It has nothing to do with Rachel- it's simply how he thought he could best serve the city when it was corruption-free. Again, his mission statement as Batman was never to pound thugs and purse snatchers, it was to rid the city of corruption, which on paper he and Gordon did.

 

[Shikamaru]

Gordon wasn't an idiot . . . until TDKR.

Same thing can be said about Bruce IMO. Sure, he wasn't the world's greatest detective/Batgod in the first two films, but he was by no means an idiot either. I thought he was significantly smarter in BB/TDK than in TDKR. I really don't buy how Bruce was so easily fooled by Talia & Catwoman and trusted them with his secrets (energy project/help in the third act), especially if you consider how he first sees Harvey in TDK.

Heck, if memory serves me right, he figures out Ducard is the real Ra's al Ghul in BB. Someone at his party introduces him to Ra's al Ghul, sees that it isn't the same guy as before, sees Ducard is alive and then puts two-and-two together that Ducard is just a fake alias for the real Ra's.

 

[DyeLorean]

"Breaking News! Bruce Wayne is dead!
In other unrelated news, Batman apparently died too."

 

[ThePhantasm]

Same thing can be said about Bruce IMO. Sure, he wasn't the world's greatest detective/Batgod in the first two films, but he was by no means an idiot either. I thought he was significantly smarter in BB/TDK than in TDKR. I really don't buy how Bruce was so easily fooled by Talia & Catwoman and trusted them with his secrets (energy project/help in the third act), especially if you consider how he first sees Harvey in TDK.

Plus Bruce prepared for each fight in TDK, whether with skyhook and the explosives, or with the sonar vision goggles, etc. In TDKR he just goes to brawl with Bane and uses no gadgets whatsoever except for flash bangs and an electromagnetic pulse, both of which are woefully ineffective. He basically tries to straight-up brawl without using any special tactics.

It was like every character got dumbed down, except for John Blake with his magical powers of being able to figure every frickin' thing out, whether about Batman's identity or Bane's plan etc.

 

[BatLobster]

I would just like to point out that it's now 2014 and we have 9 members and 11 lurkers in this thread. That's more than the main discussion thread in BvS right now.

Have we started the fire?