The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[shauner111]

There was this movie called BATMAN BEGINS. In it....this kid called Bruce Wayne sees his parents murdered in front of him. He becomes a stilted, closed off young man. He then trains his body, learns all types of ninja stuff and things from convicts before he starts dressing up as a BATman fighting criminals.

In this other movie called THE DARK KNIGHT......his childhood friend who he has an immature childlike crush on (let's face it, he is in his 30's, has never dated or even kissed her, but he's jealous because she is engaged to a very nice, successful, extremely well liked man) get's murdered (not in front of his eyes like his parents, but he sorta hears it over the phone) and he freaks out....and then in the third movie called THE DARK KNIGHT RISES it starts off by saying he had not been out as Batman for 8 years.

If you're saying that he hung up his cape and cowl because Rachel died, then you sir were not paying attention at all when you saw the final movie, as well as the end of TDK. It literally had nothing to do with Rachel.

 

[Shikamaru]

And speaking of the ending, how exactly does Bruce plan to keep his death a secret? We don't see him wearing a disguise or fake mustache or anything in that last scene.

How is he so sure he won't be found? Bruce Wayne is the Donald Trump/Warren Buffet of DC. People instantly yelled "Hey look, it's Bruce Wayne!" in TDKR as soon as he got out of that car...even though he hasn't been seen in years.

Then there is Ras' line in BB that "the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear". People thought he was dead at the start of BB too.

If people can "spot" Tupac so many years after his death, they can spot someone like Bruce Wayne even easier.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It had nothing to do with Rachel? Nothing at all?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Then there is Ras' line in BB that "the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear". People thought he was dead at the start of BB too.

Good point.

 

[milost]

Same thing can be said about Bruce IMO. Sure, he wasn't the world's greatest detective/Batgod in the first two films, but he was by no means an idiot either. I thought he was significantly smarter in BB/TDK than in TDKR. I really don't buy how Bruce was so easily fooled by Talia & Catwoman and trusted them with his secrets (energy project/help in the third act), especially if you consider how he first sees Harvey in TDK.

Heck, if memory serves me right, he figures out Ducard is the real Ra's al Ghul in BB. Someone at his party introduces him to Ra's al Ghul, sees that it isn't the same guy as before, sees Ducard is alive and then puts two-and-two together that Ducard is just a fake alias for the real Ra's.

Bam, right on the money.

After being fooled by Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul and underestimating the Joker in the Dark Knight, Bruce doesn't seem like he could be fooled again. He knows Lau is bringing in dirty money to the table and runs Wayne Enterprises BEHIND Fox's back. People that are so supportive of TDKR seem to forget that this guy kept tabs on not only Dent (whom he didn't trust), but also his childhood friend. He was so paranoid that his own Butler was concerned that Bruce might be spying on him. Then, let's not forget about the FREAKING SONAR DEVICE.

Batman by the end of The Dark Knight was like the full fledged Batman. The one that can't really be tricked and is on top of his game. The Joker was like the final test to get him up to this point, past "Year One" so to speak. He's seasoned and he knows that the whole "symbol of hope" idealism can't be representative of his crusade. He reaches his "Dark Knight" status so to speak.


BUT then we get TDKR . . . .


Quits. Gets fooled into partnering up with another Al Ghul on building a doomsday device (that he knows is dangerous but doesn't drown it anyway). Falls for an Al Ghul even after she spews the same kind of nonsense that Liam Neeson did. Gets conned by a cat burglar. Pretends that Batman and Bruce Wayne are old pals to Selina, Spider-Man style. Underestimates Bane and listens to another tired Alfred speech (after doing the same thing with the Joker). Sleeps with a woman he barely knows who, again, is spewing things his old mentor stated. Gets duped into confronting Bane. Quits again.

TRUSTS AND HANDS THE LEGACY OVER TO A COP HE INTERACTS WITH FOR TWO SCENES BECAUSE HE SAID HE WAS A FELLOW ORPHAN.







Whatever happened to, "Beautiful, isn't it" Bruce Wayne/Batman?

That guy had potential.

 

[BatLobster]

People still claim Tupac is alive and that he was seen in various parts of the world. Tupac is nowhere as big as Bruce Wayne.

I think you might've just answered your own question there. I'm sure there would be rumors and "unconfirmed sightings". But my bet is Bruce and Selina, with their new identities, would constantly be on the move throughout Europe and the whole world, so most people would probably just take it urban legend, just like Tupac, Andy Kaufman, JFK Jr. etc.

And also, Ra's did say that- but remember that part in the BB flashback where Bruce gets busted stealing the Wayne Enterprises crates. "Tell that to the guy who owns these." Obviously nobody had any idea who he was. So, Ra's is right, but it also took somebody like Ra's to find Bruce. He's not someone everybody is necessarily going to recognize instantly, especially not internationally.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm telling you, the Batman of TDK and TDKR seem like totally different people. Its jarring.

 

[milost]

I think you might've just answered your own question there. I'm sure there would be rumors and "unconfirmed sightings". But my bet is Bruce and Selina, with their new identities, would constantly be on the move throughout Europe and the whole world, so most people would probably just take it urban legend, just like Tupac, Andy Kaufman, JFK Jr. etc.

And also, Ra's did say that- but remember that part in the BB flashback where Bruce gets busted stealing the Wayne Enterprises crates. "Tell that to the guy who owns these." Obviously nobody had any idea who he was. So, Ra's is right, but it also took somebody like Ra's to find Bruce. He's not someone everybody is necessarily going to recognize instantly, especially not internationally.

But Tupac, Andy Kaufman, and JFK Jr. aren't at Florence Italy, a tourist attraction, everyday, waiting for their emo Butler to see him across from several tables at a specific cafe.






The least they could have done was have Bruce and Selina disguise themselves like Nite Owl and Silkspectre in Watchmen. But no, they didn't. Bruce is just chilling there, waiting for Alfred.

 

[Shikamaru]

Bam, right on the money.

After being fooled by Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul and underestimating the Joker in the Dark Knight, Bruce doesn't seem like he could be fooled again. He knows Lau is bringing in dirty money to the table and runs Wayne Enterprises BEHIND Fox's back. People that are so supportive of TDKR seem to forget that this guy kept tabs on not only Dent (whom he didn't trust), but also his childhood friend. He was so paranoid that his own Butler was concerned that Bruce might be spying on him. Then, let's not forget about the FREAKING SONAR DEVICE.

Batman by the end of The Dark Knight was like the full fledged Batman. The one that can't really be tricked and is on top of his game. The Joker was like the final test to get him up to this point, past "Year One" so to speak. He's seasoned and he knows that the whole "symbol of hope" idealism can't be representative of his crusade. He reaches his "Dark Knight" status so to speak.


BUT then we get TDKR . . . .


Quits. Gets fooled into partnering up with another Al Ghul on building a doomsday device (that he knows is dangerous but doesn't drown it anyway). Falls for an Al Ghul even after she spews the same kind of nonsense that Liam Neeson did. Gets conned by a cat burglar. Pretends that Batman and Bruce Wayne are old pals to Selina, Spider-Man style. Underestimates Bane and listens to another tired Alfred speech (after doing the same thing with the Joker). Sleeps with a woman he barely knows who, again, is spewing things his old mentor stated. Gets duped into confronting Bane. Quits again.

TRUSTS AND HANDS THE LEGACY OVER TO A COP HE INTERACTS WITH FOR TWO SCENES BECAUSE HE SAID HE WAS A FELLOW ORPHAN.







Whatever happened to, "Beautiful, isn't it" Bruce Wayne/Batman?

That guy had potential.

 

[milost]

It's alright, don't cry. Just pretend Batman rides off into the sunset, western style in The Dark Knight and that the events of TDKR never happened.

 

[shauner111]

It had nothing to do with Rachel? Nothing at all?

Nothing at all. Are you guys going to tell me that you think, all this time, that she had something to do with his retirement? Are you joking?

I'm telling you, the Batman of TDK and TDKR seem like totally different people. Its jarring.

Maybe it's because it's been 8 years since he's been Batman. Or at least several for those of us who believe he was still active in the shadows a bit. It would be unnatural if he came out of retirement and he's the same as he was.

 

[BatLobster]

The least they could have done was have Bruce and Selina disguise themselves like Nite Owl and Silkspectre in Watchmen. But no, they didn't. Bruce is just chilling there, waiting for Alfred.

Maybe Bruce pulled off his wig and shades right as he saw Alfred enter the cafe.

 

[HighFivingMF]

If people can "spot" Tupac so many years after his death, they can spot someone like Bruce Wayne even easier.

I think the Tupac comparison is a perfectly logical reason why he wouldn't have any issues. I doubt more people would recognize a billionaire businessman/trust fund kid than a multi-platinum entertainer. As for the Donald Trump comparison... Bruce is nothing like Donald Trump. Trump is an attention ****e with his own reality show that talks with his head up his ass on Twitter to keep himself on the news. Bruce is a billionaire trust fund kid that acted like a dick in public now and then before disappearing for 8 years and disabling every camera near him upon his return. As long as he isn't trying to live in Gotham still, I think he'd be fine.

So what if someone recognizes him? He could say "I get that all the time." Or if someone does tell people... What are they going to do? Every time someone "spots Tupac" people either ***** about the illuminati or call them crazy. He was recognized by high society types and paparazzi in Gotham. People who actually knew him and people whose job it was to know who he is.

Like Falcone said "You'd have to go a thousand miles to meet someone that doesn't know your name." And that's what he did.

 

[C. Lee]

If you're saying that he hung up his cape and cowl because Rachel died, then you sir were not paying attention at all when you saw the final movie, as well as the end of TDK. It literally had nothing to do with Rachel.

I and others say it does. That is our opinion...the opposite is your opinion.

He can "say" I won't be Batman any longer because I must take the blame for Dent's death so that Gothomites can praise him to make themselves feel better....but I don't believe it. He went after Dent at the end of TDK because he was enraged at the moment about Rachel....but after Dent died, Bruce gave up because Rachel had died. In TDKR he's still moaning about her 8 years later. He's not locked up in his mansion being a depressed loner because of his parents or Dent....he's a total mess because Rachel died and he delusionaly thinks she would have chosen him over Dent and he would have had some kind of beautiful fantasy life for evermore.

As others have said...some will try to say he became a shut in because the reactor failed....well, unless he had been working on that reactor during the years that BB and TDK were taking place, that is not the way it happened. Because immediately after the deaths of Rachael and Dent he quits as Batman. To get a project like the reactor up and running and then to find out there is a problem to shut it down....that takes years. But Bruce had already quit being Batman...he then focused on the reactor, when there were problems with it...he totally became a hermit....but he had already quit being Batman after Rachael died.

 

[DyeLorean]

On a side note, there's a real-life superhero named Menganno who lasted longer than Batman did in the universe Nolan created.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Exactly. He

1) didn't quit being Batman because the reactor failed, because that happened years afterwards

2) didn't quit because of peacetime, because even Gordon didn't quit and was still in war-mode. Not "help the city" mode, WAR mode. So obsessed about it that his family left him. More obsessed than Bruce.

3) quit because Rachel's death threw him into some self-absorbed depression rather than making him driven like his parent's death did. He wasn't driven enough to pursue other projects after the reactor failed. Wasn't driven enough to continue fighting crime or keeping watch out for guys like Bane. Just hid around and sulked, really.

 

[C. Lee]

Just pretend Batman rides off into the sunset, western style in The Dark Knight and that the events of TDKR never happened.

That's what I do.

 

[shauner111]

I and others say it does. That is our opinion...the opposite is your opinion.

He can "say" I won't be Batman any longer because I must take the blame for Dent's death so that Gothomites can praise him to make themselves feel better....but I don't believe it. He went after Dent at the end of TDK because he was enraged at the moment about Rachel....but after Dent died, Bruce gave up because Rachel had died. In TDKR he's still moaning about her 8 years later. He's not locked up in his mansion being a depressed loner because of his parents or Dent....he's a total mess because Rachel died and he delusionaly thinks she would have chosen him over Dent and he would have had some kind of beautiful fantasy life for evermore.

As others have said...some will try to say he became a shut in because the reactor failed....well, unless he had been working on that reactor during the years that BB and TDK were taking place, that is not the way it happened. Because immediately after the deaths of Rachael and Dent he quits as Batman. To get a project like the reactor up and running and then to find out there is a problem to shut it down....that takes years. But Bruce had already quit being Batman...he then focused on the reactor, when there were problems with it...he totally became a hermit....but he had already quit being Batman after Rachael died.

It's not opinion, it's fact. Of course you can believe what you want but he retired because of Dent's death and the Dent Act. It had zero to do with Rachel.

While he was retired did he choose to live through that period in depression because of Rachel? Yes. But it had nothing to do with his retirement. Sorry but the film tells us this and so do the writers.

Immediately after the death of Rachel? No, he continued on as Batman and took down the Joker and went after Two-Face. If Two-Face hadn't snapped in trying to kill Gordons family + dying then im pretty sure he would still be Batman. It had NOTHING to do with Rachel.

It's not "some will try to say", it says in the film that he became a shut in once the reactor failed mid-way through his retirement as the Batman. Again, facts.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think you might've just answered your own question there. I'm sure there would be rumors and "unconfirmed sightings". But my bet is Bruce and Selina, with their new identities, would constantly be on the move throughout Europe and the whole world, so most people would probably just take it urban legend, just like Tupac, Andy Kaufman, JFK Jr. etc.

And also, Ra's did say that- but remember that part in the BB flashback where Bruce gets busted stealing the Wayne Enterprises crates. "Tell that to the guy who owns these." Obviously nobody had any idea who he was. So, Ra's is right, but it also took somebody like Ra's to find Bruce. He's not someone everybody is necessarily going to recognize instantly, especially not internationally.

It still seems preposterous for someone like Bruce - given what type of person he is and who the world knows him to be - to just walk around with not even a pair of sunglasses on. I'm not asking him to surgically change his face, but I would at least expect him to pull a Clark Kent and get glasses + change his hairstyle. But nope. He just sits there with not a single worry in the world.

It gets worse if you consider the fact that his butler has a track record of going at that cafe often and of being there at the same time as Bruce is. If anything, that one moment is when he would have needed a physical disguise the most.

Plus, how does he know for sure that someone like Ra's won't look for him? Or that there are more like Ra's out there? Bruce doesn't know the trilogy is ending or that the enemies he encountered are unrealistic. To him, Joker/Ra's/Bane/Talia/Scarecrow are all villains that can realistically exist in his world and his story in TDKR was just another adventure (it just happened to be the last). How does he know for sure there is no more LOS or another organization just as powerful as the LOS or an Edward Nigma that hacks all cameras in Europe that will look for him (just an example)?

 

[Snow Queen]

And it looks like we're back to the usual talking points.

 

[milost]

I think the Tupac comparison is a perfectly logical reason why he wouldn't have any issues. I doubt more people would recognize a billionaire businessman/trust fund kid than a multi-platinum entertainer. As for the Donald Trump comparison... Bruce is nothing like Donald Trump. Trump is an attention ****e with his own reality show that talks with his head up his ass on Twitter to keep himself on the news. Bruce is a billionaire trust fund kid that acted like a dick in public now and then before disappearing for 8 years and disabling every camera near him upon his return. As long as he isn't trying to live in Gotham still, I think he'd be fine.

So what if someone recognizes him? He could say "I get that all the time." Or if someone does tell people... What are they going to do? Every time someone "spots Tupac" people either ***** about the illuminati or call them crazy. He was recognized by high society types and paparazzi in Gotham. People who actually knew him and people whose job it was to know who he is.

Like Falcone said "You'd have to go a thousand miles to meet someone that doesn't know your name." And that's what he did.

You're comparing wet behind the ears, Princeton Bruce/Bearded traveling Bruce to this guy,

Who,


- returns to Gotham after being declared dead for almost a decade
- buys all the shares of his company and now owns it
- has billions of dollars
- owns a billion dollar company that reaches as far out as Asia
- travels the world
- does business with companies and firms all over the world, including Hong Kong
- takes Russian Ballerinas to his yacht
- dates foreign supermodels
- buys up hotels on a whim
- has a monopoly of restaurants
- disappears for almost a decade (or three years) again and is the source of much media fanfare
- KNOWN for wearing 100% Italian clothes and driving 100% ITALIAN cars


And you say that, when he visits Florence Italy cafes (a hub for TOURISTS mind you), nobody is going to recognize this guy?

I call BS. That's nothing like Tupac.


Nobody can defend this. I'm calling it now.

 

[Shikamaru]

It's alright, don't cry. Just pretend Batman rides off into the sunset, western style in The Dark Knight and that the events of TDKR never happened.

Actually, this is true. If you look at Alfred's table in that last scene, there is a spinning top on it .

It was all a dream.

 

[BatLobster]

Plus, how does he know for sure that someone like Ra's won't look for him? Or that there are more like Ra's out there? Bruce doesn't know the trilogy is ending or that the enemies he encountered are unrealistic. To him, Joker/Ra's/Bane/Talia/Scarecrow are all villains that can realistically exist in his world and his story in TDKR was just another adventure (it just happened to be the last). How does he know for sure there is no more LOS or another organization just as powerful as the LOS or an Edward Nigma that hacks all cameras in Europe that will look for him (just an example)?

Of course he doesn't know for sure that there's no "bigger bad" out there. But then again how does Luke know for sure that The Emperor wasn't a clone and there's not another Death Star under construction somewhere? (Guess we'll find out in 2015 ).

But really, even if there was another al Ghul/terrorist leader out there, I'm not sure what they'd want with a washed up Bruce in his 40s. Ra's tracked him down because he was young, driven and angry and "ideally placed" for his cause.

I mean, we can imagine whatever we want. Some people like to imagine that Blake falls off the rising platform and dies or that he dies on his first night out. Sure, it's extreme- but that's their prerogative.

Nobody can defend this. I'm calling it now.

I'll bite. Even if he got outed, what does that ultimately mean? That everyone will automatically know he's Batman? Not really. Just that he faked his death a second time, probably to escape Bane's revolution. Sure, it'd be way less than ideal if somebody blew the whistle on him, but it's not necessarily a deal-breaker. He and Selina can keep changing identities and skipping town for as long as they please.

 

[milost]

Actually, this is true. If you look at Alfred's table in that last scene, there is a spinning top on it .

It was all a dream.

There wasn't a top . . . but there were shots. Lets remember he was drinking plenty of Fernie branker's, running up the tab and getting drunk.

The Bruce Wayne that he saw was just a fantasy. An alcoholic hallucination.

 

[shauner111]

Of course he doesn't know for sure that there's no "bigger bad" out there. But then again how does Luke know for sure that The Emperor wasn't a clone and there's not another Death Star under construction somewhere? (Guess we'll find out in 2015 ).

But really, even if there was another al Ghul/terrorist leader out there, I'm not sure what they'd want with a washed up Bruce in his 40s. Ra's tracked him down because he was young, driven and angry and "ideally placed" for his cause.

I mean, we can imagine whatever we want. Some people like to imagine that Blake falls off the rising platform and dies or that he dies on his first night out. Sure, it's extreme- but that's their prerogative.