The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[shauner111]

Damn straight. It's movie batman, not comic batman. Nolan's interpretation is no less valid than Englehart, O'Neill, Miller, Dini or Snyder. It's just a whole different medium.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

There is nothing in TDK as preposterous as that, though I am open to examples. Preferably examples that play as much into the story of TDK as the clean slate thing in TDKR does.

I don't see what is soooo preposterous about it. People who pick the idea apart of the people looking for flaws in the first place.

This may not be as relevant to the plot, but the whole Skyhook scenario in TDK comes to mind.

The whole thing is wishy-washy. So Bruce covers his butt on the Gotham end, ok good. But he jumps off a boat filled with people and gets on a shoddy plane that landed from nowhere. Not one of those actors thinks "Where the hell is going? What is he doing?"

He gets on the plane sans disguise. These smugglers are just looking at Bruce Wayne is his skivvies. He tells them the plan, and later they pick up Batman. How did Bruce explain all this to these smugglers? Did he give false names? How much did he pay them off? He he say he was connected to Batman in a way? None of the Smugglers connected the dots and said....I bet the rich guy we picked up is Batman! They are career criminals, I'm sure they have the means to say "I bet that rich guy we picked up was Bruce Wayne."

Not to mention a huge plane was able to fly over Hong Kong airspace without getting shot down....

 

[bilbo baggins]

He's good with Tangerine inventory calculations.

that is friggin hilarious!!!

 

[Travesty]

Only that comment doesn't really wash. He didn't even have a plan for most of those 8 years. He wasn't devoting his life to anything. He was wandering aimlessly and learning to survive without money. It was Ra's who set him on the path of devotion to an ideal/cause. And he only trained with the LoS for what seems like a few months to maybe a year.

Heh, where are you getting that "he only trained with the LOS for a few months"? And before that, he wasn't just "aimlessly learning to survive", he was learning how the criminal mind/underworld worked. That was told to us in the movie very explicitly. Ra's even said to Bruce, " you've traveled the world to understand the criminal mind and to concur your fears". That doesn't sound like "aimlessly trying to survive" to me.

Also, the movie told us the day that Rachel smacked some sense into him, is the day he learned what justice was, and that was when he started to train. I mean it's all right there in the movie.

 

[bilbo baggins]

one question i have besides when the hell bruce ejected from the bat, is whether or not the los were planning on actually escaping the ineviatable nuke before batman showed up, or were actually staying just to fufill ras al ghuls destiny.

 

[shauner111]

Their plan was to die with Bane and Talia. It was a suicide mission.

 

[milost]

Heh, where are you getting that "he only trained with the LOS for a few months"? And before that, he wasn't just "aimlessly learning to survive", he was learning how the criminal mind/underworld worked. That was told to us in the movie very explicitly. Ra's even said to Bruce, " you've traveled the world to understand the criminal mind and to concur your fears". That doesn't sound like "aimlessly trying to survive" to me.

Also, the movie told us the day that Rachel smacked some sense into him, is the day he learned what justice was, and that was when he started to train. I mean it's all right there in the movie.

Exactly.

My comment absolutely "washes" and still stands. When he left Gotham he was training, looking to find himself, and found Batman. That's the story of Begins in a nutshell.

I love how TDKR changed people's perspective on things. Especially when Batman/Bruce gives up those lofty ideas of "symbols of hope" and inspiring good, taking on a different, more complex hero role.

 

[shauner111]

He wasn't training until he met Ras. It never seemed like he was with the League for too long.

 

[bilbo baggins]

since this thread has a huge second wind i have a question i woud like to propose to all batfans on here. would it have been a better ending if bruce had actually died? i know your thought shikamaru, i thought him living was the perfect ending and i am a die hard fan. but there are peeps out there who liked the idea.

 

[milost]

He wasn't training until he met Ras. It never seemed like he was with the League for too long.

Then where did he learn all those fighting moves? Or did you forget all those fighting styles he throws at Ducard in the monestary? Or the "practice" he absolutely decimates at the prison?


I swear, you guys either didn't watch Begins or you mentally ignore the original motives in favor of your beloved TDKR.

 

[Travesty]

Physical training, sure(and even then, he was already fighting criminals in the prison), but the movie tells us he started all of his training after Rachel smacked him, and showed him that justice isn't about a guy with a gun.

Again, this isn't anything that is implied, this is stuff that is told to us directly.

 

[The Joker]

Physical training, sure(and even then, he was already fighting criminals in the prison), but the movie tells us he started all of his training after Rachel smacked him, and showed him that justice isn't about a guy with a gun.

Again, this isn't anything that is implied, this is stuff that is told to us directly.

Yeah, like how TDK was sending the message that Bruce will always need Batman, he'll be hunted because he can take it, Joker is bringing and inspiring a better class of criminal to Gotham so we'll see more freak criminals like him etc.

Then TDKR tells us bugger all happened after Dent died. Batman was gone after that night, and crime was practically wiped out because of the Dent Act. What a load of crap.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah, like how TDK was sending the message that Bruce will always need Batman, he'll be hunted because he can take it, Joker is bringing and inspiring a better class of criminal to Gotham so we'll see more freak criminals like him etc.

Then TDKR tells us bugger all happened after Dent died. Batman was gone after that night, and crime was practically wiped out because of the Dent Act. What a load of crap.

If you wanted it to mean that more freaks were coming out then that's on you. That was never some confirmation. Joker thought it would happen, it didn't because he didn't win the war. Batman hid the truth and that's why Joker went to Arkham to rot and nothing happened. Joker never said he would inspire a better class of criminal, he said he himself would be bringing that better class of criminal now that he was in charge.

Don't blame Nolan because you misinterpreted the films.

Did he not get chased by the police? Did he not take the fall for Dent's crimes for years? He did all of that. Just because people interpreted that as meaning Batman would continue on like the comics, doesn't make it true. I suggest watching the Journey of Bruce Wayne feature on the blu-ray/dvd where they explain why they went in that direction. You just have this comic book mentality stuck in your mind so you assumed (like i did) that it meant Batman keeps going for years in the suit. But we were wrong and it didn't contradict anything they say at the end of TDK. There was just 2 directions to go in, they chose the other. If you didnt like that direction, that's on you. But it still fell in line.

 

[The Joker]

If you wanted it to mean that more freaks were coming out then that's on you. That was never some confirmation. Joker thought it would happen, it didn't because he didn't win the war. Batman hid the truth and that's why Joker went to Arkham to rot and nothing happened. Joker never said he would inspire a better class of criminal, he said he himself would be bringing that better class of criminal now that he was in charge.

What difference would Joker being locked up make in terms of inspiring other criminals? Or that Batman hid the truth about Dent? Have you ever seen Batman Beyond for instance? The Joker was dead for years, but there was a gang called the Jokerz who had been inspired by him.

Don't blame Nolan because you misinterpreted the films.

I didn't misinterpret them.

 

[milost]

If you wanted it to mean that more freaks were coming out then that's on you. That was never some confirmation. Joker thought it would happen, it didn't because he didn't win the war. Batman hid the truth and that's why Joker went to Arkham to rot and nothing happened. Joker never said he would inspire a better class of criminal, he said he himself would be bringing that better class of criminal now that he was in charge.

Wrong.

He was referring to himself, Dent and the "freak movement". "They'll be doubling up at the rate these cities inhabitants are losing their minds".


Now, not to say Joker was completely "right", he did underestimate the citizens on the boat. Batman and the Joker were right that night. Joker foretold most of the film. Batman nabbing Lau, what the city and cops would do, Dent, Dents turn, Gordon "being alone", etc.

It's laughable to just write off everything the Joker said because he "lost" (but did he). Only reason TDKR changed everything up is because Ledger died, backing the writers into a corner. That's the catalyst for all this.

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't see what is soooo preposterous about it. People who pick the idea apart of the people looking for flaws in the first place.

This may not be as relevant to the plot, but the whole Skyhook scenario in TDK comes to mind.

The whole thing is wishy-washy. So Bruce covers his butt on the Gotham end, ok good. But he jumps off a boat filled with people and gets on a shoddy plane that landed from nowhere. Not one of those actors thinks "Where the hell is going? What is he doing?"

He gets on the plane sans disguise. These smugglers are just looking at Bruce Wayne is his skivvies. He tells them the plan, and later they pick up Batman. How did Bruce explain all this to these smugglers? Did he give false names? How much did he pay them off? He he say he was connected to Batman in a way? None of the Smugglers connected the dots and said....I bet the rich guy we picked up is Batman! They are career criminals, I'm sure they have the means to say "I bet that rich guy we picked up was Bruce Wayne."

Not to mention a huge plane was able to fly over Hong Kong airspace without getting shot down....

Dear Lord, talk about trying to nitpick.

Yes, I can buy Bruce BS'ing his way out of having to leave a ship full of actors and hot models because something comes up or he had somewhere to go. It even fits with the playboy persona, because no serious down-to-earth person would just leave in such a carefree and disrespectful way.

What "smugglers"? That was Bruce's plane. Hence why it stops and waits for him to get on board. As for how he gets to Hong Kong...the same way how everyone else gets to Hong Kong.

So yeah, not the same thing as Bruce faking his death and walking around in public places for the rest of his life with no worries that someone will spot him at any point in the upcoming 40 years or more.

 

[shauner111]

What difference would Joker being locked up make in terms of inspiring other criminals? Or that Batman hid the truth about Dent? Have you ever seen Batman Beyond for instance? The Joker was dead for years, but there was a gang called the Jokerz who had been inspired by him.

I didn't misinterpret them.

Sounds like you did.

I did see it, but this isn't Batman Beyond. It's its own thing. The citizens will hear that Joker was locked up to rot forever, Dent died a hero, Batman was the nutjob everyone thought he was. That's not going to inspire anything. Other than the cops to take down the rest of the mob, which wasn't a lot by the end of it.

If the truth got out about Two-Face and Batman continued, then yes, Joker would have been right in that freaks would come out. People expected it to turn out like the comics, but Nolan didn't want to do that. You misinterpreted.

 

[bilbo baggins]

so i guess with the exception of myself, batlobster, and shauner nobody is buying the whole he could never get away with faking his death! he is a ninja! jeez

 

[shauner111]

Wrong.

He was referring to himself, Dent and the "freak movement". "They'll be doubling up at the rate these cities inhabitants are losing their minds".


Now, not to say Joker was completely "right", he did underestimate the citizens on the boat. Batman and the Joker were right that night. Joker foretold most of the film. Batman nabbing Lau, what the city and cops would do, Dent, Dents turn, Gordon "being alone", etc.

It's laughable to just write off everything the Joker said because he "lost" (but did he). Only reason TDKR changed everything up is because Ledger died, backing the writers into a corner. That's the catalyst for all this.

It was always going to be a 3 part arc where Bruce would stop being Batman. If you read batlobster's posts then you would know that, but you probably didn't because you're so hellbent on hating this movie. Just last week you were saying it was a good movie even though you disliked so much from it and now you're saying it's a piece of garbage. Pure desperation. It's becoming one of these movies that's "cool to hate".

Joker was wrong about him leading a better class of criminal. It would have happened if the end of TDK was different.

 

[milost]

What difference would Joker being locked up make in terms of inspiring other criminals? Or that Batman his the truth about Dent?

Let's not forget all of his crazy Arkham followers like Thomas Schiff.

And really, this guy had the city under his thumb and escaped from the MCU is really going to be held and locked away in Arkham? People can say what they will about Batman, but Joker was very close to his larger than life comic counter part. What cell is going to hold him after all he orchestraded? Are we really supposed to believe that was the end of him? Riiiight.

I didn't misinterpret them.

You didn't, they do. They buy the revisionist quality of TDKR so they change and reinterpret the end of Dark Knight to fit TDKR's mold.

 

[shauner111]

You didn't, they do. They buy the revisionist quality of TDKR so they change and reinterpret the end of Dark Knight to fit TDKR's mold.

Riight. I think ill trust the artist before i trust some guys on the internet who think Batman retired because of Rachel, which clearly never happened. I dont see a single contradiction with the end of Knight. There's just more than one way to follow up that ending. You guys just have this narrow mind that only sees 1 way to do things.

 

[The Joker]

Wrong.

He was referring to himself, Dent and the "freak movement". "They'll be doubling up at the rate these cities inhabitants are losing their minds".


Now, not to say Joker was completely "right", he did underestimate the citizens on the boat. Batman and the Joker were right that night. Joker foretold most of the film. Batman nabbing Lau, what the city and cops would do, Dent, Dents turn, Gordon "being alone", etc.

It's laughable to just write off everything the Joker said because he "lost" (but did he). Only reason TDKR changed everything up is because Ledger died, backing the writers into a corner. That's the catalyst for all this.

Sounds like you did.

Sounds more like you did if you think Nolan included all of the stuff in TDK for no reason.

I did see it, but this isn't Batman Beyond. It's its own thing.

You're missing the point. The principal is the same. Dead, alive, locked up, what ever. Joker can inspire criminals no matter what.

The citizens will hear that Joker was locked up to rot forever, Dent died a hero, Batman was the nutjob everyone thought he was. That's not going to inspire anything. Other than the cops to take down the rest of the mob, which wasn't a lot by the end of it.

If the truth got out about Two-Face and Batman continued, then yes, Joker would have been right in that freaks would come out. People expected it to turn out like the comics, but Nolan didn't want to do that. You misinterpreted.

Wrong. The only reason they covered that up was to preserve Harvey's good work and image.

As for Joker being locked up to rot forever, so what? Didn't Charles Manson still have his looney group of followers after he was locked up? Are the Thomas Schiffs and the other sick minds Joker attracts just going to stop being attracted or inspired by his brand of madness just because he's in jail?

 

[GremlinZilla89]

Dear Lord, talk about trying to nitpick.

Yes, I can buy Bruce BS'ing his way out of having to leave a ship full of actors and hot models because something comes up or he had somewhere to go. It even fits with the playboy persona, because no serious down-to-earth person would just leave in such a carefree and disrespectful way.

What "smugglers"? That was Bruce's plane. Hence why it stops and waits for him to get on board. As for how he gets to Hong Kong...the same way how everyone else gets to Hong Kong.

So yeah, not the same thing as Bruce faking his death and walking around in public places for the rest of his life with no worries that someone will spot him at any point in the upcoming 40 years or more.

See, I freakin knew it. Nobody can say a damn thing about the TDK without saying they're simply nitpicking when the same crap said about TDKR is nitpicking of the highest order.

How is it Bruces plane? It was never said that it was Bruces. When Alfred and Bruce were talking about the plan they said they would use smugglers to pull it off. Hence the planes.

I love how people can rationalize anything negative brought up against TDK but then turn around and say Rises is some sloppily written mess. You can think of reasons to fill in the logic of Bruce covering all his bases with smugglers but not with the clean slate?

And this has probably been talked to death here, but I've haven't seen it yet. I still fail to see why Batman had to take the fall for Dents death. Seriously, WHY? Ya, I get the story reason, but it doesn't make any sense. Just say the Joker and his cronies did it. It's not like it would be a hard pill for Gotham to swallow. The fact is there is no good, logical reason why Batman and Gordon couldn't have done so.

The party scene, another probably brought up a million times, but also valid. The Joker is still in at the party terrorizing the guest and Batman is just having a sweet little chat with Rachel down below. I know there was scene shot of Joker leaving, but it's not in the movie so it can't be used as defense within the movie.

The whole hospital scene is also a head-scratcher. So Dent, the cities most valuable and important person was just in a near fatal explosion caused by the Joker and he is given two guards outside of the hospital room. Why wasn't he in a private room? Why wasn't he the FIRST freakin' guy moved out? The Joker can waltz in with face paint on, shoot the guard and have a good long talk while NOBODY confirms that Dent is out of the building? Really? Seriously? Not to mention the whole bomb situation. It's ok that the Joker can plant bombs in a hospital without a single person noticing them being planted or discovering one after the fact, that can be filled in with theorizing and excuses...but the clean slate concept is somehow sooo horribly dumb you can't do the same? Ok, whatever.


And I'm not hating on TDK. I like TDK, I'm just trying to point out how I feel most of the nitpicking about Rises can be easily applied to TDK but most simply cover their ears and find any excuse to rationalize TDK while turning around and damning Rises.

Also, I know that these videos are done as jokes, but the "Everything wrong with TDK" video by Cinema-sins brings up totally valid plot and structural issues. Hell, there are more genuine issues brought up in that video then the one they did for Rises. But still, most fans simply brush off every inconsistency and head-scratching moment in TDK and rationalize them but barf hate upon Rises with little provocation.

 

[bilbo baggins]

well whether you love rises or hate it i have to say nolan did his job, which is to get people to still hottly debate his movie

 

[milost]

Riight. I think ill trust the artist before i trust some guys on the internet who think Batman retired because of Rachel, which clearly never happened. I dont see a single contradiction with the end of Knight. There's just more than one way to follow up that ending. You guys just have this narrow mind that only sees 1 way to do things.

Wrong again. If you looked back a few pages, I had no problem with what transpires with the 8 years/hermit Bruce because the build up and desire of him becoming Batman was something I relished . . . until that was shortlived and turned to crap too.

And I never said anything about Rachel, I understand TDKR BETTER than you. I was just warning C. Lee that you guys would jump on his **** for insinuating any of Rachel's involvement. Which y'all did. Nice try though.

As for Nolan and Co.? They're constantly contradicting what the "original vision/intent" was. Goyer especially. At one point Nolan was sure he wouldn't be back for a third. At one point, Dent would have been in part 3.