The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[Chrisbarnes182]

New to this site but thought I would upload an image of a recent illustration I have produced of Christopher Nolans Batmobile 'The Tumbler'. I am a Technical Illustrator by trade, so is nice to do something a little different. As fans of the yourselves, I thought you might appreciate something a bit different. Let me know what you think

Chris

Thats really cool, Nice job.

 

[DACrowe]

Also, Gotham in Batman Begins was much more interesting, visually, tonally. Later it became just a regular city.

I actually prefer Gotham in TDK the most. BB felt like a hybrid of what Nolan wanted to do and the studio mandating a certain gothic aesthetic as made popular by Burton. In TDK, he had full control and it looked like Chicago, but it was shot in such a unique and beautiful way. Plus, the way all the elements of the city merged together in this narrative--cops, DA, lawyers, mayor's office, politicians, journalists, and of course the mob--created a living breathing world that almost reminded me of the world-building in The Wire to an extent (though obviously nowhere near as deep or explored).

Changing it to just Manhattan (the locale for nearly every superhero movie) for Rises and narrowing the focus back down to only the cops and Wayne Enterprises was somewhat of a disappointment for me in Rises. However, it still felt like a real, breathing place. In Begins, it would jump from that aesthetic later realized to weird soundstages that emulated Blade Runner to mixed results.

 

[DACrowe]

And some good old fashioned graffiti, dirt and grime. Not to mention city rain with iconic shots of Batman in it.

Each film's city had a particular look that separated them from the others. They were almost like different cities completely. I loved how it looked in Begins, specifically that scene where Wayne is in that hat/hoody disguise outside the courthouse, watching Rachel and Finch by the phone. That grimy, claustrophobic feel really reminded me of Anton Furst's '89 Batman Gotham. I also liked all the shops and weird denizens that were walking around that are non-existent in Dark Knight and TDKR. Who can forget falafel guy! It was like a different world. I know people gripe about it being a "studio built set", but I find that very admirable. Any time you're building something out of nothing, especially places like the Burton Gothams or Arkham and the Narrows, that should always be commended. People seem to forget about the artisans that put time and work into it and are too quick to write off that specific, visual look as "fake". The only thing I don't like about Begins' Gotham is that horrible CGI look it has during skyline shots. It looked like at some points they just plopped in this brown, crappy looking city into the actual location and it's obvious as hell. It's REALLY bad when the Narrows gets gassed.

Being from Chicago though, I was really saddened to see them drop the location completely after Dark Knight. Everything from the accents, to the locales, to the actor that played Wuertz (a native) just screamed Chicago. It was very much "Gotham" until TDKR came along.

I do agree that I miss some of the griminess of BB's Gotham. I too really love the shots outside the courthouse of Bruce as a young man and then again when he is spying on Rachel. I also love the look of the elevated train (or whatever they called it in that movie) and the outside shots of the Opera House. It's just that many of the CGI shots and all of the Narrows felt like a studio mandate for "gothic" like Burton, which clashed with Nolan's style. TDK felt much truer to how his story was told. It is kind of a shame that it was so clean and crisp in that film, but I think that was kind of the point. Joker was taking crime out of the back alleys and low income neighborhoods and putting it into the heart of the civic centers that are meant to look ordered and pristine. Bane continued this tradition when he turned City Hall into a kangaroo court and with the irony of clean snow being disturbed by military weaponry.

And hey, we also agree on the third here.

I like Rises quite a lot, but other than the New York Stock Exchange scene, which HAD to be done in Lower Manhattan, I wish the rest of Gotham was filmed in Chicago instead of Manhattan and Pittsburgh. It feels like New York, which while I love the city is used far too often in this genre. Nolan's vision of Chicago was unique. I wish Rises had stayed there.

 

[The Batman]

I like the BB Gotham because it was comic book esque, and I liked TDK Gotham because, as DACrowe said, it was Chicago, but Nolan made it look larger than life. He did the same thing with Hong Kong.

TDKR Gotham was alright, but it didnt stand out the way BB or TDK Gotham did.

Also, while NYC is an overused locale, I loved its usage in Superman: The Movie.

 

[shauner111]

I like the look in Begins, it's definitely comic book esque with hints of Bladerunner. But it just doesn't match with the rest of the trilogy. And that's one of the reasons as to why i liked the more real city look in both Dark Knight movies. As cool as the gothic look is, or trying to make everything seem like the slums...i actually prefer a more real city for Gotham. And not the soundstage look that i feel Begins had. You can still do gritty in a real city. That's why Detroit will be such a great choice for Batman vs Superman.

It just doesn't add up in BB. You have the stuff outside of Gotham which is very real world. You have Wayne Manor and its surroundings which is the same. Then you go into the city and everything looks like a soundstage or insanely gritty/gothic. It works sometimes because the narrows are usually the focus. But even outside of that, it feels like a mix of many different visuals. The fact that Nolan didn't repeat it tells me it was more of a studio thing.

I enjoyed the Rises approach. We return to Wayne Manor and that country side. And it meshes well with the rest of the city. It's like OK we're in a real place in the United States, and we can travel to this place..or at least it feels that way. In BB you see a good portion of Gotham and you're more aware that you're watching a movie with comic book characters in it. That feeling of "This is pure fiction, like a city that couldn't quite exist". Of course the foggy/misty look towards the end is what gives more truth to that vibe.

 

[Travesty]

I hated TDK the most. It just looks exactly like Chicago. Nolan didn't even try to hide it. And living in Chicago, I just never get a Gotham City vibe....ever.

 

[shauner111]

Im not from Chicago, and i live in Canada. So it's still foreign to me. But i honestly liked how Nolan wanted to make Gotham a real city like Chicago or New York. It goes back to that original intention where Gotham was a stand-in for New York City. After so many years in live-action and animation where Gotham looks like this super fantastical city, it was nice to get a real city this time. There was no disconnect. It was more relatable for me. I felt like i could travel there as opposed to something that looks straight out of a comic book or parallel universe.

 

[BatLobster]

I do think shooting on location more does automatically create a sense of scale and stakes, because it feels like real people live there and are really in danger of whatever the villain has planned.

Like, BB has the second highest stakes (in terms of number of lives in danger) of the trilogy, but it doesn't feel as big because everything is so claustrophobic Narrows-centric. I do enjoy that slummy look, but I think the more vast look of the sequels is more in line with Nolan's overall approach to the character. Would have been cool to see The Narrows or Arkham revisited at some point though, that was always a little disappointing to me.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm so freaking annoyed right now, I just got my limited edition Dark Knight trilogy set, was so psyched its awesome but my ****ing dog chewed up my little scroll with the note from Chris Nolan in it, aghhhh!

 

[DACrowe]

Well the truth is that none of the cities shot in are in the complete societal decay that Gotham is depicted. Chicago, and especially New York, are thriving international cities. And the latter has been even more gentrified (at least in Manhattan) than the "post-Dent Laws" of TDKR.

Now moving Gotham to Detroit for Bvs? Now, THAT will give it an authentically collapsing look! Though I am somewhat surprised that super-stylized Snyder seems to be choosing locations over an art deco/gothic monstrosity. I figured he would try to outdo Burton's first attempt in that department. He still might, but that is hard to mesh with location shooting, in my opinion.

 

[The Shape]

I hated TDK the most. It just looks exactly like Chicago. Nolan didn't even try to hide it. And living in Chicago, I just never get a Gotham City vibe....ever.

Well, of course you don't get a Gotham City vibe from Chicago. It's your city, you live in it every day, and you probably know it inside out. However, there are millions of people who have seen TDK but have never traveled to Chicago, nor would they recognize any specific landmarks used in the films. I imagine the suspension of disbelief of that city as Gotham would be much easier for those people.

Nolan's Gotham was never really meant to be the kind of Gotham that was run-down, decaying, and overrun with colorful lunatics of all shapes and sizes. He treated it as more of a real American city with some major problems beneath the surface (large ghetto area like The Narrows, police corruption, the mob) that faced both internal and external threats only Batman could face or overcome. He used real American cities as locations (Chicago, Pittsburgh, NYC) which he didn't really attempt to dress down in any way.

I'm assuming the Gotham in this new film universe will be depicted as struggling much more than Nolan's Gotham was, both on the surface and beneath.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

Gotham in TDK is one of my main complaints. It just feels like a regular city. Nothing more. It's too clean and clinical. It's also oddly cold and feels empty, despite a moderate presence of crowd scenes.

BB has the best Gotham imo. TDKR was a step up from TDK in that Gotham felt more sprawling, more labyrinth like and like a city JUST outside of the real in it's scale.

 

[DyeLorean]

Edit

 

[Shikamaru]

TDKR's Gotham was the only Gotham I didn't like (other than a few shots). It looked way too clean and polished. I had that problem with TDK too, but nowhere near the same extent. In TDK, Gotham still felt like Gotham to me during the night scenes and sometimes during the day scenes.

I find my opinion ironic though. Since my favorite take on Gotham is "the dark side of New York" and TDKR is the only of the three that was filmed in New York.

 

[shauner111]

Gotham in TDK is one of my main complaints. It just feels like a regular city. Nothing more. It's too clean and clinical. It's also oddly cold and feels empty, despite a moderate presence of crowd scenes.

BB has the best Gotham imo. TDKR was a step up from TDK in that Gotham felt more sprawling, more labyrinth like and like a city JUST outside of the real in it's scale.

It was supposed to feel like a regular city. It's what Nolan originally set out to do. And Gotham is not supposed to feel like a warm place, obviously.

TDKR's Gotham was the only Gotham I didn't like (other than a few shots). It looked way too clean and polished. I had that problem with TDK too, but nowhere near the same extent. In TDK, Gotham still felt like Gotham to me during the night scenes and sometimes during the day scenes.

I find my opinion ironic though. Since my favorite take on Gotham is "the dark side of New York" and TDKR is the only of the three that was filmed in New York.

That's most likely because you didnt like the story in Rises, which is why Gotham looks cleaner, since the story is about crime being reduced quite a bit.

Id say Begins was the closest to the comics out of the three and that's why fans love that look the most. The Dark Knight sequels just felt like real cities but taking out the huge landmarks so a lot of people wouldn't recognize which city it really was.

 

[The Joker]

The funny thing is before Burton, Gotham was predominately portrayed as a regular looking city in the comics:

 

[Shikamaru]

That's most likely because you didnt like the story in Rises, which is why Gotham looks cleaner, since the story is about crime being reduced quite a bit.

I know. Both films portray the city as cleaner than the previous film for the exact same reason, which is to visually show that Gotham is getting better due to Batman and Co. I suppose one's opinion on the city's aesthetic depends on the reason for the aesthetic in the first place. Since I bought the reason why Gotham got better in TDK but not the Dent Act in TDKR, that opinion reflected in the aesthetic.

Id say Begins was the closest to the comics out of the three and that's why fans love that look the most. The Dark Knight sequels just felt like real cities but taking out the huge landmarks so a lot of people wouldn't recognize which city it really was.

BB's Gotham is my absolute favorite . It is very reminiscent of Year One's Gotham, which is my favorite look for Gotham - the gritty realistic urban-decay of the 80's/early 90's. TDK has a lot of that in it as well (specifically during the night scenes), but not as much as BB did.

Also, you're making a bit of a misassumption. Gotham has been portrayed as just a normal real city many times in the comics. The art deco/gothic look is just the stereotypical look. Like I said before, my favorite take on Gotham is the 80's Year One urban decay style. It's still visually dark, but in a realistic way.

I will say this though: the content of Gotham has always mattered to me more than the look of Gotham. To me, the crime and corruption is what makes Gotham. The visual looks are only secondary. It is why I prefer Nolan's Gotham to Burton's Gotham. Sure that Burton put more effort in his Gotham's visuals, but the crime/corruption was much better felt and represented by Nolan which made it feel more like Gotham IMO.

 

[The Batman]

The funny thing is before Burton, Gotham was predominately portrayed as a regular looking city in the comics:

The Architect background did wonders for Rogers' art. Incredible. Made you really feel like you were in a major city circa 1977.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I liked the Gotham underground in TDKR. I liked the sewer set. Just the idea of showing more of this other world under Gotham was a good idea.

 

[kvz5]

The wavy hair...

ETA: There's a bunch more. I'll take them to the GIF thread.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ I thought that was Julie Newmar for a sec.

 

[BatLobster]

Completely random...but I think the "My mother warned me about.."/"This isn't a car" exchange between is great. I tend to take it for granted cause it's a trailer moment, but it's really a spot-on little piece of Bat/Cat banter and I love Bale's deadpan delivery. It's a classic "Batman" moment. And then that awesome moment of Bane just watching as The Bat takes off.

 

[shauner111]

That whole sequence is my favorite from the movie. It's just CLASSIC Batman for me in every way imaginable.

 

[kvz5]

I will always laugh at how he didn't deny that he's a strange man. He will correct her about the car but dammit he will not correct her about being strange because he IS strange.

 

[shauner111]

hahahaha