The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[kvz5]

I really, really loved the BatCat scenes. I wish there were more of it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Most of the Bat/Cat scenes were great. They were classic Batman scenes, especially the one BatLobsterRises referenced. I saw that scene in the trailer and immediately knew they got Catwoman right.

 

[BH/HHH]

I was wondering for anyone that has the limited edition Dark Knight Trilogy is there anyway you can scan a copy of the letter from Chris Nolan for me please?

After my dog chewed mine up I've been thinking of ways I can get another copy and I don't think WBs will send me one.

 

[James.B]

 

[BH/HHH]

James you are a legend, thank you so much. Remember I owe you one

 

[Kane52630]

Completely random...but I think the "My mother warned me about.."/"This isn't a car" exchange between is great. I tend to take it for granted cause it's a trailer moment, but it's really a spot-on little piece of Bat/Cat banter and I love Bale's deadpan delivery. It's a classic "Batman" moment. And then that awesome moment of Bane just watching as The Bat takes off.

 

[BatLobster]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That just made my day Kane.

 

[The Joker]

The Architect background did wonders for Rogers' art. Incredible. Made you really feel like you were in a major city circa 1977.

Yeah I love that era in the comics. Classic vintage Batman the Englehart period is.

 

[Panthro]

Hahaha, the Boston Batman Rises.

 

[The Batman]

Yeah I love that era in the comics. Classic vintage Batman the Englehart period is.

That era was much too short. Sadly, DC didn't have a knack for producing long comic book runs.

 

[BH/HHH]

I just rewatched Batman Begins for the first time in ages and after the end I started to feel kind of sad. It just does such a wonderful job of starting off what should have (in my opinion) been an ongoing series. Watching it when Alfred talks about the foundations of Wayne Manor getting an upgrade or even the part about escalation or Victor Zsaz escaping and never been caught (at least on screen) and various other things I just think of what was seemingly promised on yet never delivered. I just can't seem to get over what happened with this franchise, it was all perfectly set up for a Bond like run. Not trying to start a debate as such here cause Dark Knight Rises is a decent enough film it just seems like alot of hard work doing the origin was almost for nothing.

 

[Shikamaru]

A Bond-like run would have been cool. Things could have also ended at Movie 3 with no problem, followed by reboot. Either would have been fine with me. It's the whole "epic end to this full-circle naturally three-act trilogy that was always meant to be such trilogy" attitude that bothers me - an attitude present both in the production crew and in the way TDKR plays itself.

 

[BH/HHH]

Don't you think though they could have ended a 3rd more open though (in terms of Bruce Wayne Batman)? I don't think they had to end it so definitively.

I just felt let down by the 3rd film, it didn't really deliver on the ending of the Dark Knight. I was waiting to see a full on Batman chased by the Police movie which we only got briefly. I have to admit when I first heard it was 8 years later I felt uneasy. I also hate how closely it ties into the first one, seems to be a trapping if trilogies to do that. Always makes the middle film seem the odd one out. I really wish it had have been set straight after TDK and ended with Batman standing tall. Then they could have done a soft reboot and still had those films in continuity.

I guess its personal preference though gotta give Nolan credit for sticking to his guns I suppose.

Who knows maybe after Superman Batman I won't look back on it the same way.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ I agree with everything.

I see TDKR's ending as Nolan's way of saying "WB, you can't touch this now that I'm done." I do understand that point of view and can see where he is coming from in terms of what could have happened to the franchise after Movie 3, but it hurts TDKR in present-day context (or at least in what was present-day context back in 2012).

I do find the "sacrifice" funny and pointless in retrospect. Batman vs. Superman looks entirely like a film just pushed by suits that will be a complete disaster. It looks like the second biggest CBM disaster within the foreseeable future (the first being Bay-Turtles reboot). Batman specifically has been made about an entire decade older than Superman and other superheroes, is stunt casted, and will be the crazy right-wing extremist we see in books like Dark Knight Returns/Kingdom Come. Despite Nolan's intentions with TDKR's ending to avoid Batman's film future being turned into a disaster, Batman's film future still looks like a complete disaster.

In some ways, it looks like more of a disaster than it would had been if Nolan's franchise continued. At least with Nolan's franchise, WB would have been forced to stick to a lot of the things people love about Batman in order for things to make sense continuity-wise. With a clean-slate, WB can do whatever the hell they want.

All this makes TDKR's ending even more disappointing IMO.

 

[BatLobster]

I think TDK is the odd one out in a good way. It's drastically different than BB, it will always be remember for The Joker and it works as a stand alone film.

Though I don't think TDKR only connected to BB though, to me it blended the best of both worlds.

Also, soft reboot or hard reboot...to be there's almost no difference. The thing is, now general audiences are "in" with Batman from the ground floor. They've seen his full origin, they get it, and now you can reboot without having to do that stuff over again. It also puts all the villains back on the table.

I think hard reboot is the way to go. Therefore I applaud Nolan for ending his story the way he wanted to. He passed the torch to the next guy this way and didn't force them to use his universe.

Even is BvS is bad, we still may get a solo franchise helmed by Affleck...where he can go anywhere he wants without having to stay consistent with anything. Freedom attracts talent.

 

[BH/HHH]

I think TDK is the odd one out in a good way. It's drastically different than BB, it will always be remember for The Joker and it works as a stand alone film.

Though I don't think TDKR only connected to BB though, to me it blended the best of both worlds.

Also, soft reboot or hard reboot...to be there's almost no difference. The thing is, now general audiences are "in" with Batman from the ground floor. They've seen his full origin, they get it, and now you can reboot without having to do that stuff over again. It also puts all the villains back on the table.

I think hard reboot is the way to go. Therefore I applaud Nolan for ending his story the way he wanted to. He passed the torch to the next guy this way and didn't force them to use his universe.

Even is BvS is bad, we still may get a solo franchise helmed by Affleck...where he can go anywhere he wants without having to stay consistent with anything. Freedom attracts talent.

That is actually a really good point,
I guess its no different than comic writers adding their own spin to stories even though for example Batman Year One was the canon origin. I guess as you say know people know the origin.

^ I agree with everything.

I see TDKR's ending as Nolan's way of saying "WB, you can't touch this now that I'm done." I do understand that point of view and can see where he is coming from in terms of what could have happened to the franchise after Movie 3, but it hurts TDKR in present-day context (or at least in what was present-day context back in 2012).

I do find the "sacrifice" funny and pointless in retrospect. Batman vs. Superman looks entirely like a film just pushed by suits that will be a complete disaster. It looks like the second biggest CBM disaster within the foreseeable future (the first being Bay-Turtles reboot). Batman specifically has been made about an entire decade older than Superman and other superheroes, is stunt casted, and will be the crazy right-wing extremist we see in books like Dark Knight Returns/Kingdom Come. Despite Nolan's intentions with TDKR's ending to avoid Batman's film future being turned into a disaster, Batman's film future still looks like a complete disaster.

In some ways, it looks like more of a disaster than it would had been if Nolan's franchise continued. At least with Nolan's franchise, WB would have been forced to stick to a lot of the things people love about Batman in order for things to make sense continuity-wise. With a clean-slate, WB can do whatever the hell they want.

All this makes TDKR's ending even more disappointing IMO.

I agree on the Nolan wanting the, not to touch it. In some ways I could have seen Richard Donner been the same way with his Superman had he got to stay on.

I do disagree that SVB will be a disaster though. They know they have to make a quality film here cause more than just a simple film is riding on it, they have a cast if characters that they need to nail.

 

[The Shape]

^ I agree with everything.

I see TDKR's ending as Nolan's way of saying "WB, you can't touch this now that I'm done." I do understand that point of view and can see where he is coming from in terms of what could have happened to the franchise after Movie 3, but it hurts TDKR in present-day context (or at least in what was present-day context back in 2012).

I do find the "sacrifice" funny and pointless in retrospect. Batman vs. Superman looks entirely like a film just pushed by suits that will be a complete disaster. It looks like the second biggest CBM disaster within the foreseeable future (the first being Bay-Turtles reboot). Batman specifically has been made about an entire decade older than Superman and other superheroes, is stunt casted, and will be the crazy right-wing extremist we see in books like Dark Knight Returns/Kingdom Come. Despite Nolan's intentions with TDKR's ending to avoid Batman's film future being turned into a disaster, Batman's film future still looks like a complete disaster.

In some ways, it looks like more of a disaster than it would had been if Nolan's franchise continued. At least with Nolan's franchise, WB would have been forced to stick to a lot of the things people love about Batman in order for things to make sense continuity-wise. With a clean-slate, WB can do whatever the hell they want.

All this makes TDKR's ending even more disappointing IMO.

Oh, boy...here we go again.

 

[shauner111]

Im glad it didn't continue on like the Bond movies. They tried that in the 90s and it didn't work. Perhaps they'll do it now with their new universe, perhaps they won't. But why would Nolan end the 3rd movie open ended? For money? Bleh. He told the story he wanted to tell, he gave Bruce Wayne an ending that isn't even featured in the comics, it's unique as its own thing. Good for him. He's a champ for sticking to his guns and not playing "the game". Im sure Bale was offered a crazy paycheck for Batman vs Superman as well and turned it down. They have integrity. They stuck to their story even if certain fans wouldn't like it.

Begins could have been the origin to an everlasting franchise. One that introduced Dick Grayson, Superman, crossed over into team-up territory. One that lead to multiple directors taking turns with new actors playing Bruce Wayne every few films. But who cares? It's over. We can't change it. It lead into 2 more superior Dark Knight sequels (IMO) and told a specific story in a closed-off world.

Now Batman is in a better place because of it. In the public eye. The movies can continue the "dark and serious" side that Nolan introduced to the general audience, but it could blend it with more sci-fi & "comic booky" elements. Grayson, Superman, Justice League, more rogues, drones, etc.

Sure the new movie looks like a mess right now but it's all rumor. It could end up being amazing. Even if the Batman vs Superman movie isn't so great...Affleck has a chance to correct that in the next solo movie. It looks like the next Batman (suit and character) will be the ultimate version that even Nolan's haters always wanted to see.

People don't know what they got. They don't appreciate the quality we've had. Thank God we're no longer living in that late 90s, early 2000's era.

In a nutshell, im happy Begins was the start of a trilogy instead of a Bond franchise which ALWAYS ends up being run into the ground by lackluster sequels and changes. Even if i sometimes imagine Riddler or Penguin lurking in that universe, it is what it is. Whatever we didn't get in Nolan's films, we'll be sure to get within the next decade or so.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Oh, boy...here we go again.

He/she should just put it in his/her sig.

Anyway...

I'm good with Nolan giving his Batman a definitive ending. I certainly don't agree with a lot of the decisions he made regarding TDKR, but oh well. It's his trilogy. His vision wasn't compromised by either WB or a different director.

 

[The Shape]

I, for one, am glad we got a definitive ending with TDKR and that the Bale/Nolan era of Batman ended right then and there.

Part of the reason I feel this way is because we didn't have that luxury with the previously mish-mashed Batman franchise -- 2 Burton films, 2 Schumacher films, 3 actors to portray Bruce/Batman in 4 films, 4 "love interests" in 4 films, no real plot threads woven between the films that connected them in any way, etc. Despite the varied personal feelings toward Nolan or Bale, I think we should take comfort in knowing that we'll never have to wonder "What if?" By that, I mean things like "What if Nolan had decided to direct a third Batman movie?" "What if Christian Bale hadn't dropped out and was recast?"....which are some of the things we wonder about the earlier Batman films.

We saw what Chris Nolan had to offer in terms of bringing Batman to the big screen. Him and his team did their thing and I believe they've left quite the lasting mark on the superhero film genre as a whole. I've said this before, but I look at Nolan's trilogy as somewhat of a one-shot Batman tale, an else-worlds story. The equivalent of a Batman graphic novel that may not even be considered canon, but still contains so much of what defines the Batman character. And unlike a typical comic book series that stretches on forever with ageless characters who die and are reborn with retconned origins and all that stuff...we were given a definitive beginning, middle, and end to this particular Batman story.

Now, we get to see another vision of Batman that will occupy movie screens for the next several years, a vision that may not give us a definitive ending like Nolan's. What's so bad about that? I'll miss TDK trilogy but I'm all for moving on and I'm ready to see a fresh take on my favorite superhero.

 

[BH/HHH]

Im glad it didn't continue on like the Bond movies. They tried that in the 90s and it didn't work. Perhaps they'll do it now with their new universe, perhaps they won't. But why would Nolan end the 3rd movie open ended? For money? Bleh. He told the story he wanted to tell, he gave Bruce Wayne an ending that isn't even featured in the comics, it's unique as its own thing. Good for him. He's a champ for sticking to his guns and not playing "the game". Im sure Bale was offered a crazy paycheck for Batman vs Superman as well and turned it down. They have integrity. They stuck to their story even if certain fans wouldn't like it.

Begins could have been the origin to an everlasting franchise. One that introduced Dick Grayson, Superman, crossed over into team-up territory. One that lead to multiple directors taking turns with new actors playing Bruce Wayne every few films. But who cares? It's over. We can't change it. It lead into 2 more superior Dark Knight sequels (IMO) and told a specific story in a closed-off world.

Now Batman is in a better place because of it. In the public eye. The movies can continue the "dark and serious" side that Nolan introduced to the general audience, but it could blend it with more sci-fi & "comic booky" elements. Grayson, Superman, Justice League, more rogues, drones, etc.

Sure the new movie looks like a mess right now but it's all rumor. It could end up being amazing. Even if the Batman vs Superman movie isn't so great...Affleck has a chance to correct that in the next solo movie. It looks like the next Batman (suit and character) will be the ultimate version that even Nolan's haters always wanted to see.

People don't know what they got. They don't appreciate the quality we've had. Thank God we're no longer living in that late 90s, early 2000's era.

In a nutshell, im happy Begins was the start of a trilogy instead of a Bond franchise which ALWAYS ends up being run into the ground by lackluster sequels and changes. Even if i sometimes imagine Riddler or Penguin lurking in that universe, it is what it is. Whatever we didn't get in Nolan's films, we'll be sure to get within the next decade or so.

But the only reason it didn't work in the 90s were because they didn't have the right vision and the studio were more interested in selling toys. This time around things were different, of course I'm not saying it wouldn't have gone bad if not for these things but a consistent run of films has never been tried in the comics genre without interference etc.

The Bond thing would work better for Batman (IMO). You could have different film makers come in and do their 2 or 3 films then move on to the next film makers 2 or 3. But just have it so the previous films are in a sort of continuity. I mean lets face it Bond's continuity doesn't exactly flow. Also you talk of lackluster sequels yet 2 of the last 3 Bond's have been talked about as the possible best of the series so I can't agree with you there.

I really think Nolan wasn't a 100% interested in a third Batman film, I think he did the studio a favour as they let him make Inception. Also people say he talk about how he set up the anyone could be Batman but I really don't see that in the first film at all. Bruce Wayne in the first film is obsessed with becoming this symbol which turns out to be the Batman, he wants to make sure what happened to him doesn't happen to anyone else. Its only in the sequel he talks of wanting to quit. But I digress, its merely my opinion that the series didn't have to end with Rises, Nolan could have ended his series without having it be so final.

 

[DACrowe]

I just rewatched Batman Begins for the first time in ages and after the end I started to feel kind of sad. It just does such a wonderful job of starting off what should have (in my opinion) been an ongoing series. Watching it when Alfred talks about the foundations of Wayne Manor getting an upgrade or even the part about escalation or Victor Zsaz escaping and never been caught (at least on screen) and various other things I just think of what was seemingly promised on yet never delivered. I just can't seem to get over what happened with this franchise, it was all perfectly set up for a Bond like run. Not trying to start a debate as such here cause Dark Knight Rises is a decent enough film it just seems like alot of hard work doing the origin was almost for nothing.

While Nolan clearly likes the Bond movies (he borrows weird tidbits from lesser popular ones all the time like On Her Majesty's Secret Service, License to Kill, and The World is Not Enough), he never went for that tone. He went for more of an "epic cinema" sweeping approach, closer to how one imagines Coppola or Mann might approach this material--though they never would.

With that said, I do agree it felt like the story was longer than three movies. TDKR was a perfectly fine conclusion, but there felt like there should have been 1-2 more stories between TDK and TDKR about "escalation" and the immediate aftermath of Dent and the enforcement of the Dent Act. Us seeing Gotham fall into Joker's flames of "a better class of criminal" before rising out of it through a lie and tyrannical law.

...But Nolan and company were already somewhat exhausted on the material and only wanted to do one more movie, so I do agree it feels like they skipped to the end with Rises. But I can accept that, even if I wish there was more in the middle. However, this never felt like a Bond series. It always was going to be a closed set of films from this group of creators.

 

[DACrowe]

^ I agree with everything.

I see TDKR's ending as Nolan's way of saying "WB, you can't touch this now that I'm done." I do understand that point of view and can see where he is coming from in terms of what could have happened to the franchise after Movie 3, but it hurts TDKR in present-day context (or at least in what was present-day context back in 2012).

I do find the "sacrifice" funny and pointless in retrospect. Batman vs. Superman looks entirely like a film just pushed by suits that will be a complete disaster. It looks like the second biggest CBM disaster within the foreseeable future (the first being Bay-Turtles reboot). Batman specifically has been made about an entire decade older than Superman and other superheroes, is stunt casted, and will be the crazy right-wing extremist we see in books like Dark Knight Returns/Kingdom Come. Despite Nolan's intentions with TDKR's ending to avoid Batman's film future being turned into a disaster, Batman's film future still looks like a complete disaster.

In some ways, it looks like more of a disaster than it would had been if Nolan's franchise continued. At least with Nolan's franchise, WB would have been forced to stick to a lot of the things people love about Batman in order for things to make sense continuity-wise. With a clean-slate, WB can do whatever the hell they want.

All this makes TDKR's ending even more disappointing IMO.

You do realize that Bale wouldn't have come back, right?

If Nolan had left TDKR open-ended, we likely would have ended up with Ben Affleck playing the Bale Batman in BvS in a movie that might still be the disaster you fear.

If it is that truly bad, then it will give more credence to why Nolan closed off his trilogy. Otherwise, that would be his vision sucked into mediocrity.

 

[BH/HHH]

While Nolan clearly likes the Bond movies (he borrows weird tidbits from lesser popular ones all the time like On Her Majesty's Secret Service, License to Kill, and The World is Not Enough), he never went for that tone. He went for more of an "epic cinema" sweeping approach, closer to how one imagines Coppola or Mann might approach this material--though they never would.

With that said, I do agree it felt like the story was longer than three movies. TDKR was a perfectly fine conclusion, but there felt like there should have been 1-2 more stories between TDK and TDKR about "escalation" and the immediate aftermath of Dent and the enforcement of the Dent Act. Us seeing Gotham fall into Joker's flames of "a better class of criminal" before rising out of it through a lie and tyrannical law.

...But Nolan and company were already somewhat exhausted on the material and only wanted to do one more movie, so I do agree it feels like they skipped to the end with Rises. But I can accept that, even if I wish there was more in the middle. However, this never felt like a Bond series. It always was going to be a closed set of films from this group of creators.

Maybe had it been four or five movies I'd have felt differently. Yeah I can see they were exhausted with it and that's understandable after doing it twice before. When ?i say like Bond I don't mean tone I just meant keep the story going, I just don't think Nolan had to make it so final.

I do actually feel abit better about it after what Batlobsterrises said about the origin now been about so people know it. I'm hoping after Superman/Batman I'll feel even better about it

 

[shauner111]

While Nolan clearly likes the Bond movies (he borrows weird tidbits from lesser popular ones all the time like On Her Majesty's Secret Service, License to Kill, and The World is Not Enough), he never went for that tone. He went for more of an "epic cinema" sweeping approach, closer to how one imagines Coppola or Mann might approach this material--though they never would.

With that said, I do agree it felt like the story was longer than three movies. TDKR was a perfectly fine conclusion, but there felt like there should have been 1-2 more stories between TDK and TDKR about "escalation" and the immediate aftermath of Dent and the enforcement of the Dent Act. Us seeing Gotham fall into Joker's flames of "a better class of criminal" before rising out of it through a lie and tyrannical law.

...But Nolan and company were already somewhat exhausted on the material and only wanted to do one more movie, so I do agree it feels like they skipped to the end with Rises. But I can accept that, even if I wish there was more in the middle. However, this never felt like a Bond series. It always was going to be a closed set of films from this group of creators.

Doesn't that sound like Penguin to you?