The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[shauner111]

How did it not make sense? He sees Batman for the first time in 8 years, he tells the kid who is a rookie, that he's in for a show tonight. Stop reaching for reasons to knock everything down.

That line might have been the only thing STRAIGHT out of Returns, but the entire concept is from the graphic novel. Batman is retired and makes his return when the cops are chasing some baddies. The cops get a surprise. Batman is chasing down the same baddies at the same time. The outcome is different but the setup is the same.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The Cop chase in Rises was as vanilla as it comes with regards to car chases. There's no action, drama, or adrenaline to it.

The one in Begins was supposed to show Batman being reckless. It makes a point of it when he returns home and Alfred chews him out over it, saying it's a miracle nobody was killed. It was supposed to show him acting out of order. But it was a big spectacle chase. Exciting and full of variety. The one in Rises was plain Jane.

Totally agree. There's not much that's particularly memorable about the TDKR chases (either the batpod one or the flying Bat one). The only thing that stands out is Batman jumping the pod off of that truck ramp, and that's small potatoes compared to flipping a semi or driving on rooftops.

 

[shauner111]

I can say the same about the Begins one. What's so great other than the tumbler flying off a roof or getting away from the police in pure darkness. Im not saying i believe in that, but i can say the same thing you're saying for the Rises chase.

So the scale of something makes it better? The bigger the jump or vehicle, the better the scene? Come off it. What are you..Michael Bay?

 

[The Joker]

Memorable moments in the Begins chase:

- The Tumbler pancaking Cop cars
- Driving on rooftops
- Flipping over Cop cars
- Going stealth mode
- Blowing up a wall on the building rooftop then charging off it
- The general choreography of it screeching through the streets, making sharp turns around corners etc

Memorable moments in the TDK chase

- SWAT truck knocked into the river
- Joker destroying Cop cars with his rocket launcher
- The Tumbler's arrival and taking out the garbage truck
- The destruction of the Tumbler
- The birth of the Bat-Pod
- Helicopter knocked out of the air
- Joker's truck flip

Memorable moments in TDKR chase

- Bat-Pod speed jumps over the truck

There is no stand out moments in the TDKR chase apart from that one part. Whereas the chases of BB and TDK had several stand out moments. TDK's chase being the best one of the trilogy.

 

[DACrowe]

How come? It would have died a heroic death, having given everything for his city and the people in it. Hardly a horrible thing or non-adult.

I thin conflating heroism with either dying or "never ending his eternal war on crime," is the expected ending for the character that could be arguable is reductive of his personality and a cynical look at Bruce Wayne. Nolan tried to find a unique way that was more than a happy ending. It was one one of him growing from his journey as Batman and becoming something different after a career of crime fighting, even if that career was too short for some viewers.

 

[Shikamaru]

How did it not make sense? He sees Batman for the first time in 8 years, he tells the kid who is a rookie, that he's in for a show tonight. Stop reaching for reasons to knock everything down.

That line might have been the only thing STRAIGHT out of Returns, but the entire concept is from the graphic novel. Batman is retired and makes his return when the cops are chasing some baddies. The cops get a surprise. Batman is chasing down the same baddies at the same time. The outcome is different but the setup is the same.

Exactly. You just explained it yourself why it doesn't make sense. Only part you missed is he slows the car down, with the rookie asking him why.

In Returns, Batman was a known hero and ally of the GCPD for years. In Rises, Batman is a publicly known criminal to everyone but Gordon, with a body count of 6 people, who suddenly just vanished after being hunted down. They even had wanted posters of him. It makes sense in Returns' context, but not in Rises'. But of course everyone went crazy over it because it was from TDK Returns.

So yeah, even though it's taken from the comics, it doesn't actually make any sen....wait, never mind. I almost forgot I'm an apparent fanboy whose entire beef with the film is that it isn't like the comics. Never mind, that line is awesome .

 

[Shikamaru]

Regarding memorable moments, TDKR's lack-of-them really made me appreciate the ones in BB and TDK more, and even notice ones that I didn't notice originally.

A personal complaint I kinda had with the first two Nolan films were the lack of more iconic Batman shots - things BTAS used to do all the time. I really wanted to see Batman use more batarangs, have more awesome poses, overall just more "comic booky" stuff. Stuff the film didn't really need - and it's not like it had zero of those things to begin with - but would have been neat to see.

Then TDKR comes out and I share the same belief. But then I went back to BB and TDk and, all of a sudden, there were so many I could spot. It was really weird. Even something as simple as Batman gliding on his cape and seeing the Bat-Signal in the sky were just so visually "awe"ing. Heck, the scene with Batman visiting Harvey in the hospital and leaving the coin...that's a classic Batman scene. The way it's shot, the way Harvey stands there scarred, the way Batman puts down the coin and then leaves, it's all very comic booky. It feels very familiar, very Batman-like.

In some really weird twisted way, TDKR heightened made me see the first two in new light, even though I already really liked them in the first place.

 

[shauner111]

Exactly. You just explained it yourself why it doesn't make sense. Only part you missed is he slows the car down, with the rookie asking him why.

In Returns, Batman was a known hero and ally of the GCPD for years. In Rises, Batman is a publicly known criminal to everyone but Gordon, with a body count of 6 people, who suddenly just vanished after being hunted down. They even had wanted posters of him. It makes sense in Returns' context, but not in Rises'. But of course everyone went crazy over it because it was from TDK Returns.

So yeah, even though it's taken from the comics, it doesn't actually make any sen....wait, never mind. I almost forgot I'm an apparent fanboy whose entire beef with the film is that it isn't like the comics. Never mind, that line is awesome .

I explained what? How did anything i said NOT make sense? Im not understanding you obviously. The cop hasn't seen him in 8 years and tells the cop that he's in for something special tonight....and that doesn't make sense to you? Allllriiiiighty then..

Your second paragraph makes no sense to me, what are you trying to say? What doesnt make sense in the context of Rises?

 

[the5timechamp]

the chase in TDKR like the majority of the movie just feels like a missed opportunity...
first off the music is amazing, as is the very first part of his return with the incident in the tunnel..

after that it falls apart, somehow bats gets ahead of thug on the bike, has enough time to set the bike up perpendicular to the bad guys' direction of travel to knock him off....and seemingly blindsides him.... I can accept the whole "things only exist when theyre in the frame of the camera" in films like the good the bad and the ugly..in this series it just fails.
Also if they were going to ape the Dark Knight Returns at least do like the book did and have a montage of reports coming in reporting "batman-like" sightings...build to the big reveal a little more effectively.

As far as Batman Begins, I love the chase except that I wish theyd have a wider shot of the Tumbler speeding around..theres a few closeups with the tumbler at full speed weaving through traffic..I wanted more, it really is an impressive beast...also one cop is shown on the radio in various different shots..it makes no sense for it to be the same guy.

 

[shauner111]

Memorable moments in the Begins chase:

- The Tumbler pancaking Cop cars
- Driving on rooftops
- Flipping over Cop cars
- Going stealth mode
- Blowing up a wall on the building rooftop then charging off it
- The general choreography of it screeching through the streets, making sharp turns around corners etc

Memorable moments in the TDK chase

- SWAT truck knocked into the river
- Joker destroying Cop cars with his rocket launcher
- The Tumbler's arrival and taking out the garbage truck
- The destruction of the Tumbler
- The birth of the Bat-Pod
- Helicopter knocked out of the air
- Joker's truck flip

Memorable moments in TDKR chase

- Bat-Pod speed jumps over the truck

There is no stand out moments in the TDKR chase apart from that one part. Whereas the chases of BB and TDK had several stand out moments. TDK's chase being the best one of the trilogy.

You listed the things that were standout to you. I dont need crazy stunts for a chase scene to be memorable. The music, the chase itself, the reactions of the other characters, made it very exciting for me. A lot more than Begins which i really enjoyed but always felt like it only happened because WB told Nolan they needed a chase scene with the batmobile. The rooftop scene, as enjoyable as it was is no different than a scene that could have been in a Shumacher movie.

The point of the Rises chase, what was on the line...the stakes were much higher than Begins.

 

[kvz5]

Last night both BB and TDKR were on at the same time at different channels. It was awesome flipping back and forth the two and seeing the differences in the characters. I totally got nostalgic.

 

[Shikamaru]

I explained what? How did anything i said NOT make sense? Im not understanding you obviously. The cop hasn't seen him in 8 years and tells the cop that he's in for something special tonight....and that doesn't make sense to you? Allllriiiiighty then..

Your second paragraph makes no sense to me, what are you trying to say? What doesnt make sense in the context of Rises?

The fact that the senior officer thought Batman was a good guy.

 

[The Joker]

You listed the things that were standout to you.

Obviously. But it would be a falsity to suggest the majority of fans don't find most or all of those things memorable and contributing factors to the greatness of those scenes. They are the adrenaline pumping moments and wow factors.

I dont need crazy stunts for a chase scene to be memorable. The music, the chase itself, the reactions of the other characters, made it very exciting for me.

The chase literally involved Batman doing a cool jump over a truck, then making a direct bee line down a street with a herd of Cops behind him, nothing happening at all just straight forward driving, where he then turns into an alley way and makes an easy escape in The Bat. That's it.

That chase was as dull as they come. The reactions of the characters? Like what? What was so great about the character reactions here? The only one I thought had any value was Gordon's, because he has a history with Batman from the previous movie so Batman's returning actually meant something to him, and even then it was just a little quick low key smile as lay in bed watching the TV.

The Dark Knight Returns Cop reaction was a cool little nod to the comic, but it hardly made the chase memorable on the whole.

A lot more than Begins which i really enjoyed but always felt like it only happened because WB told Nolan they needed a chase scene with the batmobile. The rooftop scene, as enjoyable as it was is no different than a scene that could have been in a Shumacher movie.

The Begins chase felt like it had much more purpose than Rises. In Begins we saw Bruce show disregard for human lives, and how easy he was slipping away into this Batman persona or "Monster" as Alfred called it. It showed much higher stakes with Rachel's dying and Batman having to get her to the Batcave on time. It also showed us how effective the Tumbler was.

Not to mention it was referenced in TDK when Reese recognized the Tumbler from pancaking Cop cars on the evening news.

What purpose did Rises' one serve? Diddly squat. Even Alfred says that. "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox".

Yeah that was really meaningful with high stakes.

The point of the Rises chase, what was on the line...the stakes were much higher than Begins.

What was on the line? Batman getting caught? Same thing was on the line in the Begins chase, only in the Begins chase Rachel's life was also on the line. Ergo the stakes were higher in Begins one.

 

[shauner111]

The fact that the senior officer thought Batman was a good guy.

He thought he was a good guy? I didnt see the scene where he said that. Plus im sure not everybody in the city thinks he's a bad guy. Just like im sure not every German citizen was down with Hitler. You'll have people who dont buy into it but they wont say anything or question authority out of fear or ignorance. That's why Blake is there. He questions those things.

 

[The Batman]

Obviously. But it would be a falsity to suggest the majority of fans don't find most or all of those things memorable and contributing factors to the greatness of those scenes. They are the adrenaline pumping moments and wow factors.



The chase literally involved Batman doing a cool jump over a truck, then making a direct bee line down a street with a herd of Cops behind him, nothing happening at all just straight forward driving, where he then turns into an alley way and makes an easy escape in The Bat. That's it.

That chase was as dull as they come. The reactions of the characters? Like what? What was so great about the character reactions here? The only one I thought had any value was Gordon's, because he has a history with Batman from the previous movie so Batman's returning actually meant something to him, and even then it was just a little quick low key smile as lay in bed watching the TV.

The Dark Knight Returns Cop reaction was a cool little nod to the comic, but it hardly made the chase memorable on the whole.



The Begins chase felt like it had much more purpose than Rises. In Begins we saw Bruce show disregard for human lives, and how easy he was slipping away into this Batman persona or "Monster" as Alfred called it. It showed much higher stakes with Rachel's dying and Batman having to get her to the Batcave on time. It also showed us how effective the Tumbler was.

Not to mention it was referenced in TDK when Reese recognized the Tumbler from pancaking Cop cars on the evening news.

What purpose did Rises' one serve? Diddly squat. Even Alfred says that. "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox".

Yeah that was really meaningful with high stakes.



What was on the line? Batman getting caught? Same thing was on the line in the Begins chase, only in the Begins chase Rachel's life was also on the line. Ergo the stakes were higher in Begins one.

Bravo, good sir.

All you need do is look at the post chase Bruce/Alfred scenes in both BB and TDKR to see which one actually had higher stakes.

He thought he was a good guy? I didnt see the scene where he said that.

If I see Ted Bundy come out of nowhere, i'm not gonna excitedly shout "Boy, are you in for a show tonight" to the nearest person. Then, he chatsizes his partner about shooting at Bats. That cop was clearly a fan of Batman.

 

[Shikamaru]

He thought he was a good guy? I didnt see the scene where he said that. Plus im sure not everybody in the city thinks he's a bad guy. Just like im sure not every German citizen was down with Hitler. You'll have people who dont buy into it but they wont say anything or question authority out of fear or ignorance. That's why Blake is there. He questions those things.

He slowed down and said the kid's in for a show tonight, implying he knows Batman has it taken care of (much like in the book). And it would have been fine had they addressed that in the film regarding the police's perception, but they never do. The guy's just like "Hey look, it's Batman. Yay."

Yes, Blake does question Batman's supposed "murders", but they never establish there are conspiracy theories going around or anything like that. It comes off entirely as everyone buying into the lie except for the great golden boy John Blake who is so wise and so destined for greatness.

 

[Shikamaru]

A bit off topic, but I want to share this again:

[YT]i4bXBDr7KUg[/YT]

Still my personal favorite scene in the trilogy, and one of my favorite CBM fights overall (yes, even with the bad choreography). It's just so amazing. I mean....that is SO Batman. He's even got the white eyes that everyone seems to hate but me (in live-action). I can watch it over and over again, and still feel the adrenaline.

If Batman was like this in TDKR...damn.

 

[Ryan]

While I'm sure BB and TDK had elements or ideas that were repeated, I didn't seem to feel it as much as I did in TDKR. One of the worst feelings that I had (and never thought that I would) after TDKR was that I was glad that it was done. Like a great boxer that had gone on past his prime, I felt that TDKR had very little original gas left in the tank. Yet, at the same time, there were some real magic moments in the film, moments that needed to work and did, that has me wondering what if....?

 

[shauner111]

A bit off topic, but I want to share this again:

[YT]i4bXBDr7KUg[/YT]

Still my personal favorite scene in the trilogy, and one of my favorite CBM fights overall (yes, even with the bad choreography). It's just so amazing. I mean....that is SO Batman. He's even got the white eyes that everyone seems to hate but me (in live-action). I can watch it over and over again, and still feel the adrenaline.

If Batman was like this in TDKR...damn.

I do like the scene but it's actually my least favorite scene from the entire movie. I personally prefer the first fight between Bane and Bats.

 

[The Joker]

A bit off topic, but I want to share this again:

[YT]i4bXBDr7KUg[/YT]

Still my personal favorite scene in the trilogy, and one of my favorite CBM fights overall (yes, even with the bad choreography). It's just so amazing. I mean....that is SO Batman. He's even got the white eyes that everyone seems to hate but me (in live-action). I can watch it over and over again, and still feel the adrenaline.

If Batman was like this in TDKR...damn.

One of the best scenes of the trilogy. Definitely shows Batman at his peak

 

[Shikamaru]

I do like the scene but it's actually my least favorite scene from the entire movie. I personally prefer the first fight between Bane and Bats.

One of the best scenes of the trilogy. Definitely shows Batman at his peak

I always had a thing for seeing Batman take down SWAT teams, even more than when he fights aliens. Don't know why. Maybe it's because I keep up with a lot of stories on police corruption, or maybe it's because I'm so fed up with the "Batman is just a cop with tons of money" claims that I get happy when I see scenes like these attack that misconception straight on.

 

[The Endless]

I just can't get past the bad choreography. Great idea and concept, poorly executed. I preferred the fights in Begins. You believe the blows he lands would actually incapacitate the people he's fighting. They are bone crunching. In TDK and Rises he punches or elbows people in the shoulders and they are knocked out.

But back to the car chases. Yea, Begins is clearly the best. No just in terms of spectacle and stakes, but on a technical level. The geography and spatial awareness is just spot on. You don't have cars at one place then magically moving to another in different shots. It all feels seamless. Brilliant editing. And the stealth mode part, where the score drops... then builds again is just epic.

TDK and Rises chase scenes were really poorly edited in my opinion. Poor geography and spatial awareness too.

 

[Roderick]

Batman Begins nailed everything, I think, not the biggest fan of Ra's though. I feel like TDKR missed a lot of opportunities like an OP said above.

 

[Green Goblin]

My dream would have been to have TDKR split into two.

Part 1 has Bane and Catwoman as the main villain.

Part 2 has every villain other than Two Face back.

 

[Fudgie]

A bit off topic, but I want to share this again:

[YT]i4bXBDr7KUg[/YT]

Still my personal favorite scene in the trilogy, and one of my favorite CBM fights overall (yes, even with the bad choreography). It's just so amazing. I mean....that is SO Batman. He's even got the white eyes that everyone seems to hate but me (in live-action). I can watch it over and over again, and still feel the adrenaline.

If Batman was like this in TDKR...damn.

That scene is the king for Batman in action. He is like a boss. Just magic. Better than the shaky cam spazz fights of Begins.

We never saw Batman be that epic again. Taking down two SWAT teams, Joker's goon squad, and saving all the hostages. Bad ass Bats action right there.