The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[Green Goblin]

I using one example that showed blatant laziness on the part of the writers and/or director. But the film is very much marred by the need to be dark. Consider the necessity of showing Spider-Man only fighting crime at night, adding "ominous" dark cues meant to cause the audience to question Peter's morality, such as when he covers that one goon's mouth in web-fluid and then checks for the star tattoo on his wrist. He sees it is not there, so he lets the guy breathe, "saying this could have gone a lot worse." The scene is meant to evoke at least the thought that Spidey would have let him die if this was Uncle Ben's killer.

Funny, SM1 had something similar. Peter was pretty brutal with the man who killed his father figure which is pretty understandable if you ask me.

And keep in mind that this is only one of the first time we've really seen him in full costume for more than a second. The way the jokes stop, he tilts his head in a shot that indicates his eyes are predatory and the music comes in with a menacing hiss--it is to make him look dark, dangerous, angry.

It does not matter if he's in the costume or not. He learns the meaning of being a hero when he saves Jack on the bridge,
Jack's father: "You saved my son, who are you?"
Peter:"I'm... Spider-Man!"
*Notice how he is only Spider-Man from that point on.

The movie also feels the need to "explain" everything like Nolan did. Where did he get his web fluid? Where did he get his web-shooters? Where did he get the idea for a skin-tight colorful outfit (he listens to other geeks talk about wind velocity and then studies speed skating).

Nolan was not the first person to explain things. Secondly, I see no problem them making sense because it's not like they paused the story and went "here were going to spell everything out for you". Also it keeps well with a more realistic approach.

Also the emphasis on the cops, particularly Stacy, it is all influenced by Nolan,

Again, realism, Spider-Man is a vigilante. I must have missed the part where Stacy and Spidey meet up on rooftops and talk crime and Spidey then vanishes.

except Spidey is not Batman and that kind of interpretation of a strictly nighttime avenger does not gel well with the jokes, the giant Lizard, the fact that Peter Parker is meant to be an everyday high schooler struggling with romance. It makes for a muddled movie.

He's not a night time avenger, the first two Lizard fights look place during the day. Spider-Man is a combination of real and fantastical, he's a normal guy who deals with extraordinary things.Batman is hardly much less unrealistic. Many of his villains have powers and yes, SWAT is featured them as there is romantic interests in Batman...

And if you really don't think Sony had The Dark Knight in their head, go back and watch the trailers for TASM. Many have the word "BEGINS." That was not accidental.

Very nit-picky, which sounds better, The Untold Story Starts or The Untold Story Begins?
For the record, yes the Dark Knight influenced TASM and has influenced many other films. It did not "copy Nolan's tone" and there is plenty of films that have influenced TDK. If I'm following your logic I might as well say Raimi copied Donner with SM1 and 2. Both had camp, Spidey rips his shirt in a similar fashion and the whole temptation of giving up your mantle was done in S2.

And you know what the biggest validation is that this approach failed in the eyes of not only many viewers, but also Sony and Webb? The fact that they have completely ditched it for TASM2. He is now, as you say, seen swinging in the daytime, fighting colorful villains who are not hidden in the marketing and is basically wearing the Raimi suit or a variation on it. That need to "ground" it is really gone in TASM2, because that just ain't Spidey.

Nope, still grounded webslinging and even the designs look grounded (Rhino is a tank and Electro looks like an electric eel). Also, if TASM is generally speaking the 2nd best Spidey film why change? It's not the Raimi suit, please there are several major differences. Different shades of red and blue, different Spider symbol, bigger/different shaped eyes and even the soles of his feet are similar to the TASM costume. Colorful villains? Lizard looked pretty green to me.

I was speaking there of the fact that Spidey is not a character who needs to be defined by gritty hardship. While Uncle Ben dies, Gwen Stacy dies, Harry Osborn dies, etc., he is still presented in his best eras as a guy who is never weighed down by his loss. In the 1960s through the early 1990s, he is depicted as a regular guy who goes through some tragedies, but embraces lightness and happiness and his stories never really are all that bleak. They are not nourish, they do not take entirely at night, and he is not depicted as a dark avenger striking out at criminality. He is a guy who is trying to keep a steady job, find love or balance his marriage (depending on where it is happen), and keep his responsibilities to his family and friends while also having to save the world once in a while. Despite not getting the details right of Peter or Mary Jane's personalities (IMO) right, Raimi captured that take on the character. Webb's does remind of later comics, but not Ultimate which also got what I'm talking about. TASM reminds me of those dreary post-The Dark Knight Returns Spidey comics in the mid-90s when everything was getting dark. Spidey was fighting Carnage the serial killer, Lizard the serial killer controlled by a voodoo priestess, and just generally miserable despite being ridiculously married to a supermodel (never agreed with the comic writers of turing her into that). That kind of downbeat stoic hero shtick never plays well on Peter Parker and rang false in TASM too.

Give examples of this in TASM.

Yes the poses and "realism" of the CGI is better because it has had 7-12 years on the Raimi films to improve. Albeit, some of that Electro stuff at the power plant looks more cartoony than anything in the Raimi sequels at least. With that said, Raimi's camera movements and style gave all the fight scenes in SM2 and SM3 a verticality and even a sense of vertigo as he woodshed around and wielded his lens like a madman, similar to how he'd shoot scenes in Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness. Webb's style in TASM at least was very workmanlike.

I personally thought Webb's more closer approach was great. The first person shot were breath taking in IMAX, really made me feel like I was Spider-Man.

I personally think Lizard is a much better villain than Sandman or Venom, but you did not get that in terms of character or visuals in TASM, because he looked bad, he was poorly developed as a character, and in the fight scenes he never did anything that impressive.

He looked like the comics, had the plan of the comics other than his son what more did you want? They even took the time to have the two have a friendship and with the scene were Conners uses a mirror to pretend he has two arms I really felt for him.

But yes, in the sequel, they are definitely going for more of the Raimi look with the swinging, I can see that.

Look at my gif in the previous post, it's still there.

I really don't think that. I think it will be pretty damn repetitive by TASM3 if all the villains are because of Norman Osborn. The only villains who felt redundant in origins were Sandman and Venom, because SM3 wasn't very good and rushed through everything (though both had amazing "birth" scenes). Honestly, Electro doesn't seems about on par with Sandman falling into that test in TASM2 trailers where he goes the full Burton/Schumaucher where he falls into a vat of electric eels (really?) and now he's EVILZ!

Again look at my previous post, I mentioned that Rhino is not from Oscorp. Webb is even making the whole "accident" thing less repetitive one film in as Electro's accident is all a set up by Oscorp. Yea if it wasn't like that it would be similar to Mr Freeze in B&R .

But I'm okay with that, because honestly villains are not the selling point of Spidey mythos. He has AMAZING villains. I'd say easily the best rogues gallery outside of Batman. But unlike Batman, his defining characteristic is not what he does inside the mask but outside of it as Peter Parker. as such, even the Raimi films got away with what the comics have for 50 years: redundant "science gone wrong origins"

Agreed on Spidey's villains and that's why I prefer this series/Ultimate Spider-Man/ More recent "grounded" issues of TASM over the past decade or so. The origins were much better and are tied more often to one source.

There are exceptions of course, namely Green Goblin (either one), Doc Ock, Kraven in KLH, and a few others who really get to his soul. But by and large, they don't need to be explained so I, like many, am entirely indifferent as to whether they are all random accidents or all orchestrated by Norman Osborn.

It was a common complaint after 3 films, thankfully Raimi's Vulture would probably have been a breakaway from this.

And one of the best villains, Lizard, was fudged up by Webb already. As he was supposed to be Peter's friend,

They were friends, I even got this father/mentor feeling between the two personally.

Except I cared about Norman Osborn, even in that stupid looking suit. I also was repulsed by him at the end. I felt nothing for Connors, when he is in theory supposed to be a much more likable person. He felt rote. Taking away his family or a genuine connection of friendship with Peter (they met once before he became the Lizard)

I give Raimi's GG character over Lizard but with Raimi's design we couldn't see his emotion or facial expressions. Even if he just showed his eyes like in the final fight it would be enough for me. Also, GG's plan later on to rule the city is just stupid.

as does showing him turning back and forth into a human and choosing to do it, which makes him look like a Norman Osborn knock-off.

Where did it say he could freely choose between his forms? The Lizard was always in control of him, Connors wasn't himself.

As for the appearance, even keeping the coat on at all times would have been better. You saw the .5 seconds he wore it with the SWAT team and also in the deleted scene. It turns out Ditko knew more about visual appeal than a team of CGI animators and filmmakers did 50 years later, because without the contrasting white "cape," he looked like a boring green monster

I would have liked a full fight between the two but seeing him run between buildings with the coat would have looked cheesy IMO. Webb gave us a nice nod to the comics, more than I can say for Raimi's GG and he's supposed to "embrace the camp" and the "comic book fun".

 

[BLobo]

Who here said the majority hates TDKR?

Anybody could get that idea just by visiting some internet forums. But it´s just a very small vocal minority who won´t shut up. Sometimes a vocal minority can sound like the majority, just because they talk so much and won´t let it go. It´s like they have a mission. Maybe they think they can change everyone´s minds just by repeating themselves over and over and over and over and over again, for years.

 

[milost]

Anybody could get that idea just by visiting some internet forums. But it´s just a very small vocal minority who won´t shut up. Sometimes a vocal minority can sound like the majority, just because they talk so much and won´t let it go. It´s like they have a mission. Maybe they think they can change everyone´s minds just by repeating themselves over and over and over and over and over again, for years.

 

[DACrowe]

Who here said the majority hates TDKR?



I'm reading through this thread, and I see the majority of the posters defending it, including yourself. But most important of all, I don't see posts of people complaining about the Joker's defeat like you originally claimed happened a lot back then, and still does.

Read the original post. CJ defends that point several times.

And you are right, a majority did not mind. And if you look at the TDKR discussions from Fall 2012/winter 2013, you'll find a majority (though maybe not quite as overwhelming as with TDK in 2008) that loved the movie.

Both are cases of minority outcry. The only difference is that the conversation has gone on so long since Rises opened, that the harsher critics think they are a majority these days.

 

[Shikamaru]

In terms of comic book fans, there is no majority or minority when it comes to TDKR "haters". The numbers are about even. It is the most split Batman film (to the fanbase) since Batman Returns.

Fall 2012/Winter 3013 wasn't any different than now. There were just more numbers on both sides, but the split was still about even. People either like it or hate it.

 

[DACrowe]

Funny, SM1 had something similar. Peter was pretty brutal with the man who killed his father figure which is pretty understandable if you ask me.

It does not matter if he's in the costume or not. He learns the meaning of being a hero when he saves Jack on the bridge,
Jack's father: "You saved my son, who are you?"
Peter:"I'm... Spider-Man!"
*Notice how he is only Spider-Man from that point on.

Nolan was not the first person to explain things. Secondly, I see no problem them making sense because it's not like they paused the story and went "here were going to spell everything out for you". Also it keeps well with a more realistic approach.

Again, realism, Spider-Man is a vigilante. I must have missed the part where Stacy and Spidey meet up on rooftops and talk crime and Spidey then vanishes.

He's not a night time avenger, the first two Lizard fights look place during the day. Spider-Man is a combination of real and fantastical, he's a normal guy who deals with extraordinary things.Batman is hardly much less unrealistic. Many of his villains have powers and yes, SWAT is featured them as there is romantic interests in Batman...


Very nit-picky, which sounds better, The Untold Story Starts or The Untold Story Begins?
For the record, yes the Dark Knight influenced TASM and has influenced many other films. It did not "copy Nolan's tone" and there is plenty of films that have influenced TDK. If I'm following your logic I might as well say Raimi copied Donner with SM1 and 2. Both had camp, Spidey rips his shirt in a similar fashion and the whole temptation of giving up your mantle was done in S2.


Nope, still grounded webslinging and even the designs look grounded (Rhino is a tank and Electro looks like an electric eel). Also, if TASM is generally speaking the 2nd best Spidey film why change? It's not the Raimi suit, please there are several major differences. Different shades of red and blue, different Spider symbol, bigger/different shaped eyes and even the soles of his feet are similar to the TASM costume. Colorful villains? Lizard looked pretty green to me.


Give examples of this in TASM.




I personally thought Webb's more closer approach was great. The first person shot were breath taking in IMAX, really made me feel like I was Spider-Man.

He looked like the comics, had the plan of the comics other than his son what more did you want? They even took the time to have the two have a friendship and with the scene were Conners uses a mirror to pretend he has two arms I really felt for him.


Look at my gif in the previous post, it's still there.




Again look at my previous post, I mentioned that Rhino is not from Oscorp. Webb is even making the whole "accident" thing less repetitive one film in as Electro's accident is all a set up by Oscorp. Yea if it wasn't like that it would be similar to Mr Freeze in B&R .


Agreed on Spidey's villains and that's why I prefer this series/Ultimate Spider-Man/ More recent "grounded" issues of TASM over the past decade or so. The origins were much better and are tied more often to one source.

It was a common complaint after 3 films, thankfully Raimi's Vulture would probably have been a breakaway from this.


They were friends, I even got this father/mentor feeling between the two personally.



I give Raimi's GG character over Lizard but with Raimi's design we couldn't see his emotion or facial expressions. Even if he just showed his eyes like in the final fight it would be enough for me. Also, GG's plan later on to rule the city is just stupid.

Where did it say he could freely choose between his forms? The Lizard was always in control of him, Connors wasn't himself.


I would have liked a full fight between the two but seeing him run between buildings with the coat would have looked cheesy IMO. Webb gave us a nice nod to the comics, more than I can say for Raimi's GG and he's supposed to "embrace the camp" and the "comic book fun".

I will agree that Nolan has influenced other films as well. I think his influences on Casino Royale and Skyfall were very positive, as both Campbell and Mendes took certain ideas utilized by Nolan in the Bat-franchise and made them work in a way that was authentic to Bond (plus, Bond is a very flexible character in tones, not unlike Batman himself). And he sometimes influences filmmakers who half-ass it, look at Zack Snyder with Man of Steel. For me, Webb's first TASM falls somewhere closer to the latter.

The movie is just bleak. If anyone has visited New York, particularly Manhattan, it is not the nighttime, noir-ish hellscape that TASM paints it as. And I love noir, but it didn't feel right for the character. To be fair, it isn't the cartoonish utopia of the Raimi movies either, however that vibe at least gelled with Spidey. You can go for a grounded Spider-Man, but muting the fan so it seems more seedy never works with the character. And you can see this in the way Peter finds a mugging in every dilapidated corner of Queens and Manhattan to pursue guys who might be his uncle's killer (they multiply like flies in one sequence). And again, the carjacking features Spidey filmed in close up from a dutch angle as he tilts his head, giving him a menacing look as a guy is choking on webbing. It is meant to evoke an element of intimidation, and that is not Spidey; that's Batman.

You mention Ultimate Spider-Man, I liked the first 70 issues of that or so too (it kind of got bogged down in the weeds for my taste). However, USM is always fun and somewhat euphoric despite the more violent edge of the Ultimate universe. I never got that from TASM, the movie had drab colors, and an even drabber tone as it circles around a bleak vision of the character. One that has been foregone in the sequel, telling me that either filmmakers, the studio, or both agreed with that assessment. And yes, just because the color shadings are slightly different and the eyes and spider-emblem have slightly different shapes does not mean it is heavily intentioned to be a return to the Raimi suit.

As for the Lizard, he was one of my favorite villains growing up. Without the coat he looks like a miniature Godzilla. The flat face is also snicker-inducing. And the removal of the family makes him seem like a selfish *****ebag--I get that he is addicted to the serum, but that doesn't change the appearance that he is selfish. On top of that, his fight sequences were less impressive than anything in SM2 and most of SM3, and it had a 5-8 year advantage in technology advancement.

It was just a disappointment through and through of one the great Spidey villains, in my opinion.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ Umm...how exactly was that noir?

Even the Nolan films and MOS, which are far darker in tone than TASM, aren't noir.

 

[BLobo]

^ Umm...how exactly was that noir?

Even the Nolan films and MOS, which are far darker in tone than TASM, aren't noir.

TDKR has plenty elements of neo noir.

 

[Shikamaru]

And it was still not exactly noir (overall).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I will agree that Nolan has influenced other films as well. I think his influences on Casino Royale and Skyfall were very positive, as both Campbell and Mendes took certain ideas utilized by Nolan in the Bat-franchise and made them work in a way that was authentic to Bond (plus, Bond is a very flexible character in tones, not unlike Batman himself). And he sometimes influences filmmakers who half-ass it, look at Zack Snyder with Man of Steel. For me, Webb's first TASM falls somewhere closer to the latter.

The movie is just bleak. If anyone has visited New York, particularly Manhattan, it is not the nighttime, noir-ish hellscape that TASM paints it as. And I love noir, but it didn't feel right for the character. To be fair, it isn't the cartoonish utopia of the Raimi movies either, however that vibe at least gelled with Spidey. You can go for a grounded Spider-Man, but muting the fan so it seems more seedy never works with the character. And you can see this in the way Peter finds a mugging in every dilapidated corner of Queens and Manhattan to pursue guys who might be his uncle's killer (they multiply like flies in one sequence). And again, the carjacking features Spidey filmed in close up from a dutch angle as he tilts his head, giving him a menacing look as a guy is choking on webbing. It is meant to evoke an element of intimidation, and that is not Spidey; that's Batman.

You mention Ultimate Spider-Man, I liked the first 70 issues of that or so too (it kind of got bogged down in the weeds for my taste). However, USM is always fun and somewhat euphoric despite the more violent edge of the Ultimate universe. I never got that from TASM, the movie had drab colors, and an even drabber tone as it circles around a bleak vision of the character. One that has been foregone in the sequel, telling me that either filmmakers, the studio, or both agreed with that assessment. And yes, just because the color shadings are slightly different and the eyes and spider-emblem have slightly different shapes does not mean it is heavily intentioned to be a return to the Raimi suit.

As for the Lizard, he was one of my favorite villains growing up. Without the coat he looks like a miniature Godzilla. The flat face is also snicker-inducing. And the removal of the family makes him seem like a selfish *****ebag--I get that he is addicted to the serum, but that doesn't change the appearance that he is selfish. On top of that, his fight sequences were less impressive than anything in SM2 and most of SM3, and it had a 5-8 year advantage in technology advancement.

It was just a disappointment through and through of one the great Spidey villains, in my opinion.

Well said.

I would even go so far as to say Man of Steel, flaws and all, came far closer at achieving its goal than TASM did. I certainly enjoyed MoS more.

 

[BLobo]

And it was still not exactly noir (overall).

Noir isn´t an official term, so being or not noir is pretty subjective. I think it has all the characteristics. I don´t know if there is anything missing for it to be correctly called noir.

 

[The Joker]

Anybody could get that idea just by visiting some internet forums. But it´s just a very small vocal minority who won´t shut up. Sometimes a vocal minority can sound like the majority, just because they talk so much and won´t let it go. It´s like they have a mission. Maybe they think they can change everyone´s minds just by repeating themselves over and over and over and over and over again, for years.

Why are you saying this to me? Unless I've said TDKR is hated by the majority, you're preaching to the choir.

If you have an insecurity about this then say it to someone who actually believes TDKR is hated so much.

Read the original post. CJ defends that point several times.

Yeah.....and?

And you are right, a majority did not mind. And if you look at the TDKR discussions from Fall 2012/winter 2013, you'll find a majority (though maybe not quite as overwhelming as with TDK in 2008) that loved the movie.

Is BLobo your sock account or something? I never said the majority hated the movie. I asked you for proof that lots of people were complaining about Joker's defeat back in '08, and you give me a single thread with the majority of the posters defending the finale. The antithesis of what I asked for.

 

[Green Goblin]

I will agree that Nolan has influenced other films as well. I think his influences on Casino Royale and Skyfall were very positive, as both Campbell and Mendes took certain ideas utilized by Nolan in the Bat-franchise and made them work in a way that was authentic to Bond (plus, Bond is a very flexible character in tones, not unlike Batman himself). And he sometimes influences filmmakers who half-ass it, look at Zack Snyder with Man of Steel. For me, Webb's first TASM falls somewhere closer to the latter.

I'm not sure if your critical of TASM having a realistic tone or if you just think it wasn't done well. As I have shown the only real influence was the decision to take a realistic approach. There is nothing strikingly similar. Man Of Steel copied it Nolan, they even marketed it has "Superman gets The Dark Knight treatment."

The movie is just bleak. If anyone has visited New York, particularly Manhattan, it is not the nighttime, noir-ish hellscape that TASM paints it as. And I love noir, but it didn't feel right for the character. To be fair, it isn't the cartoonish utopia of the Raimi movies either, however that vibe at least gelled with Spidey.

The night time style was very neon if you ask me,

A "noir feel is like this,

Very black and white, TASM had lots of colours at night, very pretty.

You can go for a grounded Spider-Man, but muting the fan so it seems more seedy never works with the character. And you can see this in the way Peter finds a mugging in every dilapidated corner of Queens and Manhattan to pursue guys who might be his uncle's killer (they multiply like flies in one sequence). And again, the carjacking features Spidey filmed in close up from a dutch angle as he tilts his head, giving him a menacing look as a guy is choking on webbing. It is meant to evoke an element of intimidation, and that is not Spidey; that's Batman.

Again, Raimi did something similar in SM1 with his killer, it was at night too. Also as a vigilante he does catch a criminal during the day, it's in the part where Captain Stacy first learns of him.

You mention Ultimate Spider-Man, I liked the first 70 issues of that or so too (it kind of got bogged down in the weeds for my taste). However, USM is always fun and somewhat euphoric despite the more violent edge of the Ultimate universe. I never got that from TASM, the movie had drab colors, and an even drabber tone as it circles around a bleak vision of the character.

I grew up reading Ultimate Spider-Man, I remember a family member buying me the first issue as a birthday gift on my 6th Birthday back in 2000. TASM felt like reading a USM book to me, particularly the modern and grounded tone as well as the high school focus. A slim Spidey fighting a big green monster was straight out of USM. TASM had plenty of light hearted moments which is why for the life of me I can't understand how it was Nolanized for bleak? Would a bleak film have plenty of jokes around family and first love? I don't think so, Webb kept the warmth and charm that Raimi brought to Spider-Man back in 2002. I agree that the colour of the suit was bad and there was too many night time swinging shots but there was a good amount of daytime Spidey.

Not to mention Spidey looks for the Lizard in the sewers during the day so I don't see the "Dark Avenger" argument that much.

One that has been foregone in the sequel, telling me that either filmmakers, the studio, or both agreed with that assessment. And yes, just because the color shadings are slightly different and the eyes and spider-emblem have slightly different shapes does not mean it is heavily intentioned to be a return to the Raimi suit.

Again I've talked how realism is still kept. They've even kept the neon New York,

Not to mention how both Electro fights and the Harry Goblin fight are at night. They said they wanted to return to a traditional suit because many like myself found the colours on it ugly.

As for the Lizard, he was one of my favorite villains growing up. Without the coat he looks like a miniature Godzilla. The flat face is also snicker-inducing. And the removal of the family makes him seem like a selfish *****ebag

You can't see his emotion with a snout, not only that but him talking with a snout just looks stupid. He's not selfish, he just wanted his arm back but the serium made him bad,the actions he did was NOT Conner, that's why they showed his change of heart by catching Peter.

his fight sequences were less impressive than anything in SM2 and most of SM3, and it had a 5-8 year advantage in technology advancement.

In fairness the Lizard isn't that interesting visually in fighting IMO. He was pretty brutal and they even showed him regenerate a tail. TASM's strength in action was with Spider-Man. Very imaginative with the way he tracked The Lizard or how he moves and attacks his foes, very spider like.

I very much enjoyed Webb's more practical approach (I wish he did this with the Lizard more). It made web swinging more real and Garfield's enthusiasm to do his own stunts really shows.

 

[Green Goblin]

Well said.

I would even go so far as to say Man of Steel, flaws and all, came far closer at achieving its goal than TASM did. I certainly enjoyed MoS more.

MOS was a Nolan copy cat. TASM was not for the reasons in my earlier two posts. Not even the night time shots were "noir"

 

[DACrowe]

^ Umm...how exactly was that noir?

Even the Nolan films and MOS, which are far darker in tone than TASM, aren't noir.

Manhattan is not a dark grimy hell hole where every subway has faulty desaturated lights, and every street corner is an underlie haven for shadows and thugs. As I recall, Peter Parker just wanders down select alley ways and finds gangs of thugs ready to kill him when he is searching for Ben's killer. There is plenty of crime in New York. But TASM has a touch of urban nihilism to it, which is not unlike the neo-oir films (including Nolan's own Memento and traces of which appear in Batman Begins, but extends far more to countless other filmmakers going back to Chinatown in the 1970s). It depicts urban lifestyle as a crumbling visage of decay upon which misery is found.

I am not calling TASM noir, but it has traces of it. It depicts New York as a grimy, post-indutstrial, scary place. That comes from trying to evoke a certain image that really doe not gel with the Spidey character of the comics.

 

[DACrowe]

Why are you saying this to me? Unless I've said TDKR is hated by the majority, you're preaching to the choir.

If you have an insecurity about this then say it to someone who actually believes TDKR is hated so much.



Yeah.....and?



Is BLobo your sock account or something? I never said the majority hated the movie. I asked you for proof that lots of people were complaining about Joker's defeat back in '08, and you give me a single thread with the majority of the posters defending the finale. The antithesis of what I asked for.

You asked for proof fans whined that Joker was dealt with in a an unsatisfactory manner because he did not get an epic final fight and was literally left hanging for the SWAT team.

I gave you evidence.

And? And fanboys will whine about everything.

Case and point this thread.

 

[DACrowe]

I'm not sure if your critical of TASM having a realistic tone or if you just think it wasn't done well. As I have shown the only real influence was the decision to take a realistic approach. There is nothing strikingly similar. Man Of Steel copied it Nolan, they even marketed it has "Superman gets The Dark Knight treatment."


The night time style was very neon if you ask me,

A "noir feel is like this,

Very black and white, TASM had lots of colours at night, very pretty.

Again, Raimi did something similar in SM1 with his killer, it was at night too. Also as a vigilante he does catch a criminal during the day, it's in the part where Captain Stacy first learns of him.


I grew up reading Ultimate Spider-Man, I remember a family member buying me the first issue as a birthday gift on my 6th Birthday back in 2000. TASM felt like reading a USM book to me, particularly the modern and grounded tone as well as the high school focus. A slim Spidey fighting a big green monster was straight out of USM. TASM had plenty of light hearted moments which is why for the life of me I can't understand how it was Nolanized for bleak? Would a bleak film have plenty of jokes around family and first love? I don't think so, Webb kept the warmth and charm that Raimi brought to Spider-Man back in 2002. I agree that the colour of the suit was bad and there was too many night time swinging shots but there was a good amount of daytime Spidey.

Not to mention Spidey looks for the Lizard in the sewers during the day so I don't see the "Dark Avenger" argument that much.

Again I've talked how realism is still kept. They've even kept the neon New York,

Not to mention how both Electro fights and the Harry Goblin fight are at night. They said they wanted to return to a traditional suit because many like myself found the colours on it ugly.


You can't see his emotion with a snout, not only that but him talking with a snout just looks stupid. He's not selfish, he just wanted his arm back but the serium made him bad,the actions he did was NOT Conner, that's why they showed his change of heart by catching Peter.

In fairness the Lizard isn't that interesting visually in fighting IMO. He was pretty brutal and they even showed him regenerate a tail. TASM's strength in action was with Spider-Man. Very imaginative with the way he tracked The Lizard or how he moves and attacks his foes, very spider like.

I very much enjoyed Webb's more practical approach (I wish he did this with the Lizard more). It made web swinging more real and Garfield's enthusiasm to do his own stunts really shows.

We are going in some circles, but the neon look of TASM2 is far more stylized and "comic booky" than the first film. Why? The Avengers.

And suffice to say that the Lizard offers the most interesting physicality in an opponent Spidey has had onscreen since Doc Ock. And it is an utter failure in how little Webb capitalized on it.

Also, taking the serum to have his arm back not to be a better father and husband, but because he just wants it makes it appear more selfish. Also, making him appear an addict who needs the serum reflects poorly on his self-control. At least with Osborn, he could not control when the psychotic episodes occurred (or maybe he could, as it is left intentionally ambiguous?). Connors, just looked weak in comparison.

 

[The Shape]

I would even go so far as to say Man of Steel, flaws and all, came far closer at achieving its goal than TASM did. I certainly enjoyed MoS more.

Fair enough and I agree, though I did still enjoy TASM and think it was an acceptable start for what is likely to become a great series of films. I feel the same of MOS.

 

[Green Goblin]

We are going in some circles,

Though I seriously do not get the dark tone viewpoint (Not going to repeat my responses becuase we are in circles here, I actually feel like I have taken the Goblin serum.)

but the neon look of TASM2 is far more stylized and "comic booky" than the first film. Why? The Avengers.

Explain?The buildings still give off the same colours. Like I said there was red,blue,yellow,green,orange,white there was all sorts of colours at night.
Defiantly not noir.

And suffice to say that the Lizard offers the most interesting physicality in an opponent Spidey has had onscreen since Doc Ock. And it is an utter failure in how little Webb capitalized on it.

There's much more you can do with sandman, this guy is literally made with sand. What did you want to see in action sequences that Webb did not do? Did you not like the claw gash he gave Peter or the tracking scene?

Also, taking the serum to have his arm back not to be a better father and husband, but because he just wants it makes it appear more selfish.

But I wouldn't say a disabled man wanting his arm back is selfish.

Also, making him appear an addict who needs the serum reflects poorly on his self-control. At least with Osborn, he could not control when the psychotic episodes occurred (or maybe he could, as it is left intentionally ambiguous?). Connors, just looked weak in comparison.

Again, Connor was not in control. He was not addicted, the Lizard was. It's different from the comics but is the change exactly bad?
In conclusion the Lizard has a superior look and goal (read previous posts) but Green Goblin had a better characterization. In my logic 1 more important thing is equal to 2 lesser things.

 

[The Joker]

You asked for proof fans whined that Joker was dealt with in a an unsatisfactory manner because he did not get an epic final fight and was literally left hanging for the SWAT team.

I gave you evidence.

Oh no no no. Lets backtrack a bit here, my friend. You first compared Joker's final scene to Bane's, and said back in the day loads of people complained about Joker's defeat, and you also said they still do today. I asked for proof of this, and you show me one single solitary person vs a thread full of people defending it.

That is not what I asked for, and not what you originally said.

And? And fanboys will whine about everything.

Case and point this thread.

Yeah they will, to varying degrees. You can probably find at least one complaint somewhere about anything in a movie, even the really popular stuff. I bet I could find some fanboy complaining about the interrogation room scene, or Bane breaking Batman, or the LOS training scenes in Begins being called boring etc. That doesn't mean it's a common opinion, or even semi common.

You said Joker's defeat was deflating, and a popular complaint back then and still is. Not true at all. All you did was give me evidence of that.

 

[Shikamaru]

Manhattan is not a dark grimy hell hole where every subway has faulty desaturated lights, and every street corner is an underlie haven for shadows and thugs. As I recall, Peter Parker just wanders down select alley ways and finds gangs of thugs ready to kill him when he is searching for Ben's killer. There is plenty of crime in New York. But TASM has a touch of urban nihilism to it, which is not unlike the neo-oir films (including Nolan's own Memento and traces of which appear in Batman Begins, but extends far more to countless other filmmakers going back to Chinatown in the 1970s). It depicts urban lifestyle as a crumbling visage of decay upon which misery is found.

I am not calling TASM noir, but it has traces of it. It depicts New York as a grimy, post-indutstrial, scary place. That comes from trying to evoke a certain image that really doe not gel with the Spidey character of the comics.

Yep. Because Spidey isn't known for taking down thugs in alleys. It's not like he frequently works with the likes of Daredevil/Punisher and takes on guys like Kingpin, Hammerhead, and their people.

Plus, your description of TASM's New York is not accurate at all. The city is seen fairly well. Some parts are nice, some parts are bad, crime is worse after dark.

 

[milost]

And it's not like other Spider-Man films didn't have darkly lit, nasty city scenes like that either.

I seem to recall Spider-Man saving Mary Jane from getting raped by those snarling thugs in the alley. Or his first appearance. Etc. etc.

 

[Shikamaru]

^ Exactly.

Plus, it isn't like all of Manhattan is bright and shiny. From what I hear, it isn't a very nice neighbourhood. A couple of years back, I was in NYC and got into a chat on the bus with a local resident. He told me he has already seen hell years ago when he lived in Harlem. And then there is Hell's Kitchen.

Also, what "change in tone"? How has the tone changed? Just because it has more daytime shots now? In that case, TDK really changed the tone from BB. Everything about it has been explained multiple times by Marc Webb himself. The color palette is chosen to match the visuals. You need a lot of bright colors when you have a glowing blue electric villain. But it's still got an edge to it. It still has a villain that's quite creepy. And seeing as one of his friends is about to become one of his worst enemies, I'd argue it still has a pretty darn serious tone.

 

[BatLobster]

I worked in Hell's Kitchen for two years. It's pretty nice now, hasn't lived up to the name in decades.

Harlem is also a lot better now.

 

[BLobo]

Also, what "change in tone"? How has the tone changed? Just because it has more daytime shots now?

TASM 2 just looks a little more bright and colorful than the first one, judging by the pictures and the trailers. We gotta wait until the movie come out to confirm it though. But it definitely seems that the studio is, at least, trying to promote this as more colorful movie. More day shots, more neon lights, etc. It´s pretty obvious.

But again, we need to watch the movie first.