The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[shauner111]

Yes, in Bruce's case it's a contradiction because nothing in TDKR shows him have a change of mind about passing the mantle of Batman on, and retiring. Nothing. Unlike in TDK where you see Bruce view Harvey as a potential better symbol of hope than Batman can be, putting him to the test by getting him Lau and seeing if he can get the convictions, throwing him a fundraiser etc.

Where in TDKR do we see him have an attitude change about leaving Batman's mantle to someone else?



Gotham City was under siege and threat of nuclear destruction in TDKR, Shauner. The Cops are the only ones you see fight along side him, and that's because they're Cops. It's their job.

The citizens of Gotham are hiding in their houses like frightened sheep. There is no inspiration from Batman to them, other than Foley getting his ass out of his house to join in helping after he turned down Gordon earlier. And he doesn't count because he's a Cop, too.



Wrong. Bruce gets himself back into physical shape again in the pit, finds his fear again, and comes back in top fighting form.

Not once do you see him make the realization that he's passed it now as Batman.



The only naivety Bruce had in his mission was he didn't see the repercussions to his actions as Batman coming. Namely the escalation, the Joker etc.

Leaving his Batman mantle in the hands of a rookie Cop he barely knows from Adam is the most foolish naive thing he's ever done.



It is a problem since it contradicts the mind set and philosophy of the character in the previous two movies.

It's their job? They're not getting payed anymore. They're not doing it because it's their job. They're doing it to stand up for their city along with batman. I suggest watching the movie again.

The citizens hide in their houses because there's a threat of a bomb that will wipe out the place if anybody tests them. We would all do the same. But the fact that they're not shown to be inspired, is a good reason as to why Batman should keep the symbol moving forward, because what he thought in his 20s, is just never going to work the way he planned it.

In top fighting form? He's in shape in order to escape the prison and at least be functional as Batman so he can fight for his city when he returns. Obviously he never intended on staying as the Batman once he returned to Gotham, or else he wouldnt have a will set out for Blake. He looked at it as a one-off.

Blake has time to train. It doesn't matter how long he knew him personally. He read him right. He got his backstory, he obviously checked into it, because he knows his name, he knows where he's been (OK it may not be in the movie, but it's in the script, yes, the device planted on the back of his head. Ill give you that, but it's still there). It was said in Begins that training is not priority, will is. Blake has that. That's good enough in this series. No contradictions.

I dont see any contradictions from the previous two movies. Only dislikes from audience members, and like i said, that's fine.

Like i said the cops aren't getting paid. Nobody is. It's a no man's land. You take what you want. So they're citizens like the rest of them. They dont count? Yes they do.

 

[shauner111]

Well said, Joker . If there is anything I have to add to add to that, it's the following: There is a difference between a character changing his/her mind and the movie changing its mind. TDK as a film makes it perfectly clear why Bruce won't, can't, and shouldn't quit being Batman. Had Bruce still come to that realization with the film either being more ambiguous about Bruce's change of heart or putting more emphasis in the flaws behind his reasoning, maybe I would have bought it more.

And Shauner, those were separate statements I made. I said the ending was "wrong" because I didn't think it fit in the context of the franchise. And I said it goes against the essence completely because I think it's very poorly thought out. Yes, not everything has to be true to the comics. Heck, Batman as we know him wouldn't exist if deviations from the source were never encouraged. However, there is a difference between deviating for creative/intelligent reasons and being different just for the sake of being different. I think TDKR's ending dumbs down Batman's complex psychology and motivation to "He can just get over it" and robs him of one of his most interesting aspects, but that's something I already discussed. I'm not saying you can't do that, but just because you can change something without anyone stopping you doesn't mean it's a good idea in the first place. And again, that doesn't mean all changes are bad either.

See, you're simplifying the ending for yourself. The movie isn't doing it. You are. It's not trying to tell people that bruce can just get over it. That would be impossible. He will always have a struggle. But he's moved on from the mask and Gotham. He's getting older. His injuries wont make him last. And he sees that he can be happy if he tries. Which is why ill never believe the whole "He IS Batman, that's his true self". It isn't. He's been telling himself that since he was a kid. That's why he's a complex character. But he's not a creature. He's still a human being, and it's still his choice if he wants to return to humanity. The end of Rises shows him returning to humanity. But will he ever get over his parents death? I doubt it. Being happier and leaving Gotham will help quite a bit and that's probably what his parents would want. But it'll always be in the back of his mind. They're putting the emphasis on Bruce Wayne being the character that is the most interesting, not Batman. Treating Batman merely as a symbol. Which IMO is the way it should be. That...flows extremely well with how it was done in Begins.

 

[Travesty]

Oh dude, he's over his parents death. Now, it's all about Rachel and his moms pearls.

 

[The Batman]

Overrated in what way?

He went from being a clever, relatable kid who saw himself one day retiring...to becoming, as shika said, a mini batman.

Now, while Shika thinks thats a good thing, I think it destroyed the appeal of his character. He became a teenage mary sue who was apparently already as smart/skilled as Bruce and Dick, guys with years of experience. To be honest, he became kind of boring, and a lot of fans act like he was the only credible Robin.

I feel that, compared to other Robins, Tim got so much love because he benefited from living in the modern age of comics, an era where the writing is more sophisticated and a supporting character could get his own book. Jason was never given a chance, and Dick's tenure as Robin was entirely pre crisis.

 

[The Batman]

Oh yeah...I think the Joker summed up why I didn't care much for the conclusion of Bruce's arc.

Unlike most comic book fans, I actually wanted to see a version of Batman where he moves on from the mantle and finds peace. But like Joker says, there's no moment or speech in TDKR where he decides to move on. He literally gets back in shape, climbs out of a pit, saves gotham, and then fakes his death.

We get no actual insight into why he feels he has to fake his death. We never actually see the catharsis where Bruce lets go of his pain, and no, climbing out of the pit is not good enough. You never feel like Selina is so important, that he wants to spend the rest of his life in that italian cafe with her. They just jump to certain moments and expect you "get it".

 

[Travesty]

I like how Gotham is in ruins, and he just abandons it.

But, you know, he deserves some R&R.

 

[shauner111]

Oh yeah...I think the Joker summed up why I didn't care much for the conclusion of Bruce's arc.

Unlike most comic book fans, I actually wanted to see a version of Batman where he moves on from the mantle and finds peace. But like Joker says, there's no moment or speech in TDKR where he decides to move on. He literally gets back in shape, climbs out of a pit, saves gotham, and then fakes his death.

We get no actual insight into why he feels he has to fake his death. We never actually see the catharsis where Bruce lets go of his pain, and no, climbing out of the pit is not good enough. You never feel like Selina is so important, that he wants to spend the rest of his life in that italian cafe with her. They just jump to certain moments and expect you "get it".

Rest of his life? Let's not push it. He leaves with her, they have a chance at a relationship, who cares what happens between them after. It's about both of them being happy. With each other or not.

I think he makes the choice off screen. When he escapes the pit. They cant show you because it wouldnt be a surprise at the end. But another key moment on screen, where he decides, is when he looks out to the water. The final shot of Batman. In that moment we think he's accepting his death, but his expression is actually him deciding to move on instead of going down with the bomb.

That was good enough for me. I like that Nolan tends to explain a lot of things but also balances it out with moments where there are no words, you can interpret it for yourself.

 

[craigdbfan]

Had there been better build up for the whole John Blake subplot it would have worked better or at least it could have been rationalized a bit better.

I would have preferred had the twist been that Wayne had been working on a contingency plan for a few years and had been training Blake or something like that.

 

[shauner111]

That actually could have been a good idea.

 

[Shikamaru]

See, you're simplifying the ending for yourself. The movie isn't doing it. You are. It's not trying to tell people that bruce can just get over it. That would be impossible. He will always have a struggle. But he's moved on from the mask and Gotham. He's getting older. His injuries wont make him last. And he sees that he can be happy if he tries. Which is why ill never believe the whole "He IS Batman, that's his true self". It isn't. He's been telling himself that since he was a kid. That's why he's a complex character. But he's not a creature. He's still a human being, and it's still his choice if he wants to return to humanity. The end of Rises shows him returning to humanity. But will he ever get over his parents death? I doubt it. Being happier and leaving Gotham will help quite a bit and that's probably what his parents would want. But it'll always be in the back of his mind. They're putting the emphasis on Bruce Wayne being the character that is the most interesting, not Batman. Treating Batman merely as a symbol. Which IMO is the way it should be. That...flows extremely well with how it was done in Begins.

That's the thing. Of course Bruce can always return to humanity. He can always seek professional therapy and permanently kill the Batman, especially with all that money. It's not so much that he wants to be Batman (even though there IS some truth to that), but moreso that he knows the world needs a Batman and always will. That's what so many people admire about Batman. He is a great example of a man giving so much to the world with nothing in return, including a lot of personal sacrifices in the process. Furthermore, that's another issue altogether...professional therapy. Batman is too tied and rooted to Bruce's psychology without him seeking some sort of professional help. It's due to "it' being implanted into him at the age of 8. The way the film portrays it, he really does "just get over it". He most definitely suffers from a severe case of OCD. Realistically speaking, a couple of speeches from Alfred and some unsanitary conditions isn't going to make that go away, and this has always been a trilogy that was all about believable psychologies. But it never felt like Bruce tried hard enough and/or went out of his way to really permanently put an end to Batman. It all feels like "Well, he finally decided to move on."

I won't get too personal but having suffered from some bad anxiety in the past, it reminds me of when people told me to "just man up and get over it". And what I went through isn't anywhere near as bad as what Bruce went through.

Was I expecting to see Bruce visit a professional psychologist or something? That would've been the route I'd taken, but I don't know how you could have fit that in given the running time (though then again, I'd argue many things in the film could have been taken out). If anything, I think The Pit would've been a good opportunity for some of that. That is, having Bruce meet a figure similar to Ra's who, instead of teaching him how to become fear/Batman, goes the opposite direction and teaches him how to rid himself of Batman. Then you would've had a continuity where something larger-than-life created Batman and something else larger-than-life put an end to Batman.

 

[The Joker]

It's their job? They're not getting payed anymore. They're not doing it because it's their job. They're doing it to stand up for their city along with batman. I suggest watching the movie again.

Just because the city is cut off doesn't mean the Cops have abandoned their duty as protectors of the city. If you didn't get that from Gordon's speech to Foley on his doorstep then it's you who needs to watch the movie again.

The citizens hide in their houses because there's a threat of a bomb that will wipe out the place if anybody tests them. We would all do the same. But the fact that they're not shown to be inspired, is a good reason as to why Batman should keep the symbol moving forward, because what he thought in his 20s, is just never going to work the way he planned it.

You're back peddling now. One minute you're saying Batman had inspired them, now you're conceding that he didn't. I know full well why the frightened sheep citizens were cowering in their houses (another reason why Bane's siege was so boring and stupid. Giving Gotham back to the people my foot).

I was refuting your claim that Batman had inspired them. He had not.

In top fighting form? He's in shape in order to escape the prison and at least be functional as Batman so he can fight for his city when he returns.

Yes, in top fighting form. He spent months in the pit building himself back up to form (and somehow he doesn't need his magical leg brace any more), and he finds his fear again.

He's Batman again. No more death wish. No more need a leg brace to move around without a cane.

Obviously he never intended on staying as the Batman once he returned to Gotham, or else he wouldnt have a will set out for Blake. He looked at it as a one-off.

Yeah we know that based on that out of the blue ending where we learn he's faked his death, flitted off to Florence with Selina, and left the mantle of Batman to a rookie ex Cop he barely knows and has no reason to believe he is the best man for the job.

The point is prior to this scene there is NOTHING that leads us to believe Bruce is considering this decision or has had any kind of change of mind about leaving the Batman mantle to anyone.

Blake has time to train. It doesn't matter how long he knew him personally. He read him right. He got his backstory, he obviously checked into it, because he knows his name, he knows where he's been (OK it may not be in the movie, but it's in the script, yes, the device planted on the back of his head. Ill give you that, but it's still there).

Who's going to train Blake to the high standard Bruce expects of Batman? He had no valid reason to believe Blake was the right man for the job. Just because he heard his back story and it was similar to his? There's people all over the world in similar positions. Doesn't make them Batman material.

Bruce never did one thing to prove to himself Blake was the best man for the job. Nothing. It was a contrived ridiculous ending and a total contradiction to the Batman character of the previous two movies.

It was said in Begins that training is not priority, will is. Blake has that. That's good enough in this series. No contradictions.

That's what Ra's said. Not Bruce. Ra's said a lot of things that don't match with Bruce's beliefs.

I dont see any contradictions from the previous two movies. Only dislikes from audience members, and like i said, that's fine.

Show us where Bruce talks about leaving Batman's mantle to someone else in the previous movies, or even anywhere in TDKR, and then you'll see it.

Like i said the cops aren't getting paid. Nobody is. It's a no man's land. You take what you want. So they're citizens like the rest of them. They dont count? Yes they do.

It doesn't matter if they're getting paid. They were locked up under ground for months for goodness sake. They were in no position to get paid. The city is under siege. That doesn't mean the Cops are just going to drop their duty to serve and protect because a terrorist took their city hostage and has cut off their pay packets.

 

[Shikamaru]

He went from being a clever, relatable kid who saw himself one day retiring...to becoming, as shika said, a mini batman.

Now, while Shika thinks thats a good thing, I think it destroyed the appeal of his character. He became a teenage mary sue who was apparently already as smart/skilled as Bruce and Dick, guys with years of experience. To be honest, he became kind of boring, and a lot of fans act like he was the only credible Robin.

I feel that, compared to other Robins, Tim got so much love because he benefited from living in the modern age of comics, an era where the writing is more sophisticated and a supporting character could get his own book. Jason was never given a chance, and Dick's tenure as Robin was entirely pre crisis.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, but there is one thing we agree on. I was never fond of the idea that Tim was such a great detective from the start. I love the idea conceptually and on its own, but it's inconsistent when you look at the bigger picture. More specifically, when you look at Bruce. Which leads to what I think is the biggest problem in writers' perception of Batman's origin...

How come Bruce is never established to have genius-level intellect prior to his loss, much like Tim? You don't just become the world's greatest detective through purely will. He had to have been born a genius, or at least have a high level of attention to detail. Motivation can only take you so far. He had to have been that kid in kindergarten that solves simple-to-an-adult puzzles at a much faster rate than the rest of class. Yet no writer ever addresses that.

When you look at characters like Peter Parker/Tony Stark, they're established as geniuses at science before they're put on the path to Spider-Man/Iron Man. You could argue their origin starts post-childhood and have thus already discovered their talents, but it doesn't change the fact that it's never addressed (with Bruce). Snyder took it a step further by having Bruce deduce the identities of all Court of Owls members before age 10 with no professional training. Yep. Just his indomitable will at work. Nothing hereditary or genetic there .

You're right about Tim in the context of Bruce/Dick, but I'd argue the problem lies more in writers leaving that question of Bruce's origin unaddressed for so long.

 

[milost]

Yeah exactly. So many act high and mighty, like it's a wrong ending. Or Nolan doesn't know Batman. "That's not how the character should be!". But it's just a different interpretation. The fact is, people should say "i dont like this ending". Plain and simple.

I see you're still trolling people's opinions Shauner. I thought you didn't want to post these long rants as long as I wasn't around? Hmmm, don't you have anything better to do? When are you going to stop?

 

[shauner111]

Was i answering you? Have you really been active in this thread? Were you a part of this discussion in the last day? How am i trolling? Am i hating on the movie every single day of my life like you were doing? No.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[shauner111]

Well jesus christ, it has nothing to do with him. Mind your business milost. You said you would leave, and i said i wouldnt post as long as your here but that you COULD stay if you wanted to. But you left. So stay gone, or i wont post, simple as that. But coming back on to question me if im trolling, yeah, it sounds like you're just trying to stir the pot again between us after it's been a few weeks of peace and quiet. Im having a debate about the ending with a few posters, and it's definitely not as heated as it was when you were here. So stay out of it.

If you want to return then say it and i wont even respond to Shika and Joker's recent posts that were directed at me. I was planning on responding soon but ill pass if you're just gonna accuse me of trolling their opinions. Im not doing that as i told them, them not liking the ending of TDKR is completely fine with me. I just believe that they shouldnt say that the ending is a contradiction.

 

[milost]

Any time someone comes in here and says right, you make sure you pop in and say left. Someone states a criticism, you come in with the compulsion of stating why it's "awesome". You're essentially doing the same thing you accused me of doing. I thought it was getting old for you? I thought you didn't want to go in circular arguments? Yet, here you are, going on and on about the same issues again and again and again.

So what, only love, praise and positivity should be in this section? Is that what you want? That doesn't seem very fair. How come you feel it's "wrong" to hate or criticize this thing but you can go around with your love and praise?


Edit:

Posts in a community forum is my business. Especially when you accused me of doing something that you're clearly doing.

 

[shauner111]

Any time someone comes in here and says right, you make sure you pop in and say left. Someone states a criticism, you come in with the compulsion of stating why it's "awesome". You're essentially doing the same thing you accused me of doing. I thought it was getting old for you? I thought you didn't want to go in circular arguments? Yet, here you are, going on and on about the same issues again and again and again.

So what, only love, praise and positivity should be in this section? Is that what you want? That doesn't seem very fair. How come you feel it's "wrong" to hate or criticize this thing but you can go around with your love and praise?

Oh really.....that sounds like you're describing yourself, not me. Im not saying it's awesome. Im saying it's fine if they dont like it. You just couldnt stand when somebody loved the thing. It was your mission to make people hate it like you did. Hate the ending, it's a free world. But im saying that people should say that instead of stating that it's wrong, or Nolan didnt get batman for doing that. TheShape and others have said the same thing in the last day.

 

[The Batman]

Rest of his life? Let's not push it. He leaves with her, they have a chance at a relationship, who cares what happens between them after. It's about both of them being happy. With each other or not.

I guess so.

I think he makes the choice off screen. When he escapes the pit. They cant show you because it wouldnt be a surprise at the end. But another key moment on screen, where he decides, is when he looks out to the water. The final shot of Batman. In that moment we think he's accepting his death, but his expression is actually him deciding to move on instead of going down with the bomb.

That was good enough for me. I like that Nolan tends to explain a lot of things but also balances it out with moments where there are no words, you can interpret it for yourself.

I like that Nolan leaves some things up to interpretation. Batman leaving the cowl behind and his reasons for doing so, IMO, should not be one of those things.

 

[Travesty]

This is my favorite thread EVER!!!!!!

 

[milost]

Oh really.....that sounds like you're describing yourself, not me. Im not saying it's awesome. Im saying it's fine if they dont like it. You just couldnt stand when somebody loved the thing. It was your mission to make people hate it like you did. Hate the ending, it's a free world. But im saying that people should say that instead of stating that it's wrong, or Nolan didnt get batman for doing that. TheShape and others have said the same thing in the last day.

Oh really?

Such a great idea for the movie, when BB cramed it down our throats that Bruce needed to conquer his fears.

It's an awesome idea for the movie. Best thing about it for me. It's Bruce becoming Batman in Begins. In Rises he has to become Bruce Wayne again. The last time he was happy was when he was a child, like anybody he had fear. He had become so numb to fear over the years. So as an adult, in order for him to return to that child he was, he needs to find a way to let that fear back in. And that's how he's able to move on from the fearless creature that is Batman.

Goyer said they treated the Batman like it was an addiction for Bruce, and it was time to win the battle over that addiction. Escaping the pit the way he did + what he does at the end of the movie is how he wins the battle. But Batman had become such a symbol in the process so he needed to find a way to continue living life free of Batman while still making sure that it lives on.

That's why it's a perfect ending in my opinion.

Even the smallest criticism or knock at the movie causes you to go in a foaming frenzy. These last few pages are no different.

Look at that, "awesome", "perfect". You're like the antithesis of me with opinion but have the same style of retorts. If I was considered a troll, then what are you doing to posters here? You just can't stop.

 

[Kane52630]

I just would like to say that I loved TDKR for what it is and even I can take the criticisms people bring up. I don't ever feel the need to beat someone over the head with my thoughts of any movie.


...except for B&R.

 

[The Batman]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, but there is one thing we agree on. I was never fond of the idea that Tim was such a great detective from the start. I love the idea conceptually and on its own, but it's inconsistent when you look at the bigger picture. More specifically, when you look at Bruce. Which leads to what I think is the biggest problem in writers' perception of Batman's origin...

How come Bruce is never established to have genius-level intellect prior to his loss, much like Tim? You don't just become the world's greatest detective through purely will. He had to have been born a genius, or at least have a high level of attention to detail. Motivation can only take you so far. He had to have been that kid in kindergarten that solves simple-to-an-adult puzzles at a much faster rate than the rest of class. Yet no writer ever addresses that.

When you look at characters like Peter Parker/Tony Stark, they're established as geniuses at science before they're put on the path to Spider-Man/Iron Man. You could argue their origin starts post-childhood and have thus already discovered their talents, but it doesn't change the fact that it's never addressed (with Bruce). Snyder took it a step further by having Bruce deduce the identities of all Court of Owls members before age 10 with no professional training. Yep. Just his indomitable will at work. Nothing hereditary or genetic there .

You're right about Tim in the context of Bruce/Dick, but I'd argue the problem lies more in writers leaving that question of Bruce's origin unaddressed for so long.

You pose a very good question. At best, some writers have Young Bruce reading Sherlock holmes stories as a kid or something. That really should be explored more, really.

 

[milost]

I just would like to say that I loved TDKR for what it is and even I can take the criticisms people bring up. I don't ever feel the need to beat someone over the head with my thoughts of any movie.

Yup, I've never seen you do it. You like what you like and never get flustered when people knock it.

EVEN with Batman and Robin.

 

[shauner111]

I guess so.



I like that Nolan leaves some things up to interpretation. Batman leaving the cowl behind and his reasons for doing so, IMO, should not be one of those things.