The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - Part 150

[BatLobster]

It's definitely a shrewd business move, and probably the smartest play. But as a Batman fan I do tend to look at all of this with a bit of skeptical eye because it just feels like WB never had faith in any of these other properties before, and now Batman is being used as somewhat of a trump card to bring more credibility to the proceedings by sheer association. I feel like it benefits the DCU more than it does Batman. Which is okay I suppose, Batman's had his time in the limelight. But I think I would've rather kept Batman off the screen for longer to build up the mystique again. It just doesn't feel special this time, even though the first big screen meeting of Bats/Supes is a cool novelty.

Of course, none of what I just said fits into WB's business model, and they're going to capitalize on their assets, rightly so. Doesn't mean I'm going to do jumping jacks (until I'm blown away by something I see on the big screen).

 

[The Shape]

It's definitely a shrewd business move, and probably the smartest play. But as a Batman fan I do tend to look at all of this with a bit of skeptical eye because it just feels like WB never had faith in any of these other properties before, and now Batman is being used as somewhat of a trump card to bring more credibility to the proceedings by sheer association. I feel like it benefits the DCU more than it does Batman. Which is okay I suppose, Batman's had his time in the limelight. But I think I would've rather kept Batman off the screen for longer to build up the mystique again. It just doesn't feel special this time, even though the first big screen meeting of Bats/Supes is a cool novelty.

Of course, none of what I just said fits into WB's business model, and they're going to capitalize on their assets, rightly so. Doesn't mean I'm going to do jumping jacks (until I'm blown away by something I see on the big screen).

I reject the notion that Batman's imminent inclusion to this new DCU is because WB doesn't have (or never had) faith in its other properties.

Is this a smart business move? Absoutely. Does Batman's involvement benefit the DCU overall? Of course, he's ****ing Batman. But would you really want to see a proper live-action DCU without Batman playing an integral role in it all? Does it not make perfect sense to explore the basis of the relationship between Batman and Superman (arguably the 2 most important members of the JL) before launching into the Justice League?

Plus, a Batman vs. Superman movie has been gestating long before shared universes were even a "thing". The fact that WB/DC is finally ready to launch their own shared universe means that this is the perfect time to give fans the confrontation/team-up they've been waiting to see for decades (well, at least some of us). This is a historic event and that is something that shouldn't be forgotten. It's a little more than just a novelty.

And you're right, Batman has had plenty of time in the limelight, and he will have much more time in the limelight since he's going to be around for, you know, forever and ever. This film is going to give Superman a bigger boost in popularity than he's ever had. I certainly don't mind Batman splitting the bill this time if it means he's going to help launch the DCU in a spectacular fashion.

 

[BatLobster]

Everything you said is true, but here's the thing...

But would you really want to see a proper live-action DCU without Batman playing an integral role in it all? Does it not make perfect sense to explore the basis of the relationship between Batman and Superman (arguably the 2 most important members of the JL) before launching into the Justice League?

I don't care about seeing the DCU on film in and of itself to be honest. I don't care about a Justice League film, on paper. They can sell me on it, hypothetically. But it's never been something I've longed to see. I've just never been a Justice League fan. From a young age, any time Batman was thrown in with other the other heroes be it in the comics or cartoons, it was always an instant turnoff for me. It's just not my particular flavor of Batman. I don't think it makes me less of a Batman fan, we all have our preferences for the character. And I respect and get the historical precedent for teamups in the DCU.

So, again I say...the reasons behind this all make plenty of sense. I 'get' it. That doesn't mean I have to love it though.

 

[shauner111]

I get both of your points.

I never grew up reading Justice League comics or watching the cartoons. It's something that i've grown to like since i hit my 20's. I certainly prefer them over the Avengers or Fantastic Four.

I never cared about seeing a JL movie until i knew Nolan's movies were going to be completed. I feel like a horror based solo Batman will be in the works but now is not the time. I dont care how long they wait between Rises and the next movie, even if it was 10 years of no Batman then they drop a solo movie in a different genre. It's still the follow-up to 3 successful solo movies. The horror genre was sort-of explored with Michael Keaton back in the day, even though a new one would be more full-on, more accurate to the comics, a little more disturbing as well. It doesn't matter to me. Bringing Batman back into it within the genre of sci-fi....in a shared universe (something that hasn't happened at all). That's progress for Batman.

I agree that it feels as if Batman is being used to push the other characters (this feels like wrestling talk for crying out loud) rather than a film or three that will do wonders for Batman himself. But it's not going to hurt Batman by launching something new. In the end it will probably make the character thrive more since it's not a rehash of a previous idea.

Comments like "well, we've seen the aged Bruce in Rises so that's no different". I would have agreed at one point but i dont think it's so similar anymore. It might have begun that way. I still believe this role was meant for Bale before they started thinking of Brolin and Affleck. But this is a mid 40s Wayne who has been Batman for decades. He still operates underground somehow. Visually they're giving fans something new to see.

The only way this hurts batman is if they fail big time in the box office. Even so, i think Nolan's movies made such a dent commercially and critically, as do the very popular video games, that he can bounce back at all costs. It will make money though. That's a guarantee.

If they get the visuals right and cast the right actors, that will get me excited for Justice League. Also the story can't be DC's version of Avengers, that will turn me off. It's very easy to get this wrong. Avengers got the casting right but i don't care about the visuals or the story. The dialogue can be pretty painful too. Not to diss Whedon and get the Marvel fans mad but i think Joss is incredibly overrated. The only good witty dialogue was from Downey and i hear that it was him who kept demanding for rewrites on set, which means that he didnt think Whedon's dialogue was that special to begin with.

Goyer's writing will be put through a filter. The Affleck/Terrio filter so that's a good sign. I dont care for Zack's directing but he's good at visuals (look at Krypton or some of the Superman/Watchmen fight sequences). He'll nail Batman and even the goddamn Aquaman. Just please avoid the predictable alien invasion storyline...spice it up a bit.

I was annoyed last week with "No Batman for 5 or 6 years. Affleck may not even do his own Batman". Im over it. The way i see it: Bats will be up on screen two years in a row in 2016 & 2017. He's not the star, sure. He's there to boost the others but he also HAS to be there if it's a shared universe. As long as Clooney isn't returning they probably have my money anyway. Heck, Mr. Bean in the suit would put my ass in the cinema, just not Georgie Clooney.

If i break it down the way BatLobster did, then i would say YES i would take a solo Batman movie over this stuff any day but business wise, it's not the time to follow the trilogy with some rebooted solo movie. Batman vs Superman actually freshens this up quite a bit.

 

[The Shape]

Everything you said is true, but here's the thing...



I don't care about seeing the DCU on film in and of itself to be honest. I don't care about a Justice League film, on paper. They can sell me on it, hypothetically. But it's never been something I've longed to see. I've just never been a Justice League fan. From a young age, any time Batman was thrown in with other the other heroes be it in the comics or cartoons, it was always an instant turnoff for me. It's just not my particular flavor of Batman. I don't think it makes me less of a Batman fan, we all have our preferences for the character. And I respect and get the historical precedent for teamups in the DCU.

So, again I say...the reasons behind this all make plenty of sense. I 'get' it. That doesn't mean I have to love it though.

Yeah, in that case, it's really just a personal preference thing, and I do gt that.

To be honest, I've kind of felt the same since I can remember. I very much prefer Batman to work alone in the comics. Always have. I used to HATE Robin (still do a little), actually, and while there are some great stories with the whole Bat-family involved, Batman himself has always been the draw for me. There have also been some great JL stories in the comics and in the animated TV/movie universe, but again, I've always been more interested in Batman's solo adventures.

With that said, though, I'm at a place now where I really am ready to see Batman interact in a larger DC universe on screen. The Burton and Nolan films tickled my fancy and were truly satisfying to me in many different ways, but I'm now ready for something different and on a larger scale than what we've seen before. Watching the Marvel universe come to life on screen and seeing those heroes share the screen and interact has been awesome, to the point where I can only imagine the awesomeness of the interactions between JL members. Yeah, it's cool to see Cap and Iron Man fight side by side, but getting the opportunity to see that dynamic between the first two heavyweights Superman and Batman? It's kind of hard to fathom at this point.

And again, what reassures me about it is that it's not like this is the end of solo Batman films as we know it. It's just a phase, a new era of Batman on film. The comic book mythology is filled with various eras and interpretations for all of the greatest characters. Before we die, we will probably see at least 2 or 3 more actors step into the role of Bruce Wayne/Batman and we will 100% see more of his solo adventures down the line. But getting the DC universe on film (specifically a Batman/Superman-centric film) is an event that HAD to happen sooner or later, and I gotta say that I am glad it's happening now.

 

[shauner111]

2 or 3? Post-Affleck, ill hopefully live to see 4 or 5 actors take the role of the Batman.

 

[The Batman]

The fact that Superman might actually need Batman to give him a boost in popularity is sad, really.

That's like a Spider Man film needing an appearance from Iron Man just to drum up more interest.

 

[BatLobster]

@theShape,

Hey that's cool man. I'm really not too bitter about it, just kind of looking at things in a bit of a cut and dry way because I'm not super excited about it myself. I'm happy for people that are, and I don't think this really hurts Batman in any way, other than possibly contributing to Batman oversaturation...but we'll see. Obviously the character has been proven to be resilient enough to pretty much bounce back from anything. Just because it's not something I personally have been craving to see doesn't mean I'm saying it shouldn't be done or that other fans shouldn't get what they want. And they could even win me over on it all if they pull it off.

 

[The Batman]

Batman in a cinematic DCU means that we may finally get to see "The World's Greatest Detective" on the bigscreen.

 

[Travesty]

Batman in a cinematic DCU means that we may finally get to see "The World's Greatest Detective" on the bigscreen.

I hope not, I was just getting used to Batman being a dolt on screen.

 

[The Batman]

^ Hahahahahah

Seriously, though...I like the Burton and Nolan films...but I feel there's a reason why the GA talks about the villains more than Batman with most Batfilms.

As Shika has said in another post, Batman, as great as he's played by Keaton or Bale, is watered down in these movies while characters like The Joker are used to full potential.

Now that Batman will be in B vs S/JL as a supporting character, and now that they have to justify how and why Batman could hang with metahumans, we could finally get a Batman with genius level intellect. And that has me more excited than any new Batman solo film.

Then I remember that Snyder is basically in charge of the DCCU, and that excitement kinda diminishes.

 

[The Shape]

The fact that Superman might actually need Batman to give him a boost in popularity is sad, really.

That's like a Spider Man film needing an appearance from Iron Man just to drum up more interest.

I don't think Superman necessarily NEEDS a boost in popularity from Batman. Man of Steel was quite successful financially for a solo-film, franchise-starter, more so than nearly all of Marvel's franchise-starters and the Spider-man reboot. I imagine a straight-up Man of Steel sequel would have built on that and done even better.

Still, there's no doubt that Batman's involvement will boost the status of this film from "exciting Superman sequel" to a "must-see movie event". It's also a neat way to introduce our new Batman to audiences without making him the focal point of the whole universe or devoting a new solo-film to him entirely.

Batman in a cinematic DCU means that we may finally get to see "The World's Greatest Detective" on the bigscreen.

Hell ****ing yes. I think that's exactly what we're going to get.

 

[shauner111]

LOL everytime i start complimenting this movie, some news comes up that makes me think they're re-doing something from Dark Knight Rises. First it was the football scene with Gothams team and their yellow jerseys. Now the scoop about the Superman statue in Metropolis done in honor of Supes saving them. It makes sense within the context of the story, but wouldn't that be a more logical setup for these two heroes clashing/coming together if it was set in Nolans universe?

It will always make me think. The two origin stories, Zimmer's score, older Robin, this could have been the improved Gotham Rogues against Metropolis + the two iconic heroes who are honored in their respective cities via statues.

But i gotta stay optimistic. Hopefully they do what they can to make this as unique as possible.

 

[Shikamaru]

No doubt there will be a lot of TDKT influences in the DCCU. It seemed very obvious from the start that the Nolan films would at least be spiritually tied to the cinematic universe, even if they weren't tied literally.

 

[BlueLightning]

LOL everytime i start complimenting this movie, some news comes up that makes me think they're re-doing something from Dark Knight Rises. First it was the football scene with Gothams team and their yellow jerseys. Now the scoop about

Spoiler

the Superman statue in Metropolis done in honor of Supes saving them.

It makes sense within the context of the story, but wouldn't that be a more logical setup for these two heroes clashing/coming together if it was set in Nolans universe?

It will always make me think. The two origin stories, Zimmer's score, older Robin, this could have been the improved Gotham Rogues against Metropolis + the two iconic heroes who are honored in their respective cities via statues.

But i gotta stay optimistic. Hopefully they do what they can to make this as unique as possible.

Come on Shauner! Spoiler tags!

 

[The Batman]

I don't think Superman necessarily NEEDS a boost in popularity from Batman. Man of Steel was quite successful financially for a solo-film, franchise-starter, more so than nearly all of Marvel's franchise-starters and the Spider-man reboot. I imagine a straight-up Man of Steel sequel would have built on that and done even better.

Still, there's no doubt that Batman's involvement will boost the status of this film from "exciting Superman sequel" to a "must-see movie event". It's also a neat way to introduce our new Batman to audiences without making him the focal point of the whole universe or devoting a new solo-film to him entirely.




Hell ****ing yes. I think that's exactly what we're going to get.

As someone who found MOS "meh", Batman has made it a must see, even if I'm not confident that it'll be good. Its like you said, this movie is a must see event.

 

[shauner111]

Come on Shauner! Spoiler tags!

Oops!

 

[I Am The Knight]

Superman saving Metropolis is a spoiler?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Now the scoop about the Superman statue in Metropolis done in honor of Supes saving them.

Please tell me it will be placed dead center at the utter desolation that is Metropolis. That, from a distance, it would look like a tribute to a tyrannical leader than a "savior".

 

[I Am The Knight]

Please tell me it will be placed dead center at the utter desolation that is Metropolis. That, from a distance, it would look like a tribute to a tyrannical leader than a "savior".

 

[ThePhantasm]

Please tell me it will be placed dead center at the utter desolation that is Metropolis. That, from a distance, it would look like a tribute to a tyrannical leader than a "savior".

Please tell me you're not serious?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

A 7 to 9 block radius in the center of a city is equal to the utter and total destruction of said city, after all. Such a tyrannical leader Superman is. He hit Metropolis with a gravity beam and then when he was foiled (somehow) from using that weapon he wrathfully started knocking down building after building for no good reason.

 

[ThePhantasm]

You could say the Avengers were tyrants for the same reasons. Except their movie didn't have the stones to show the massive destruction and death that a frickin' alien invasion would cause.

 

[BlueLightning]

Superman saving Metropolis is a spoiler?

I meant the statue. Perhaps I'm too spoilerphobic.

 

[Gray Ghost]

You could say the Avengers were tyrants for the same reasons. Except their movie didn't have the stones to show the massive destruction and death that a frickin' alien invasion would cause.

Yes, because massive death and destruction is what I need in a Superman movie.
I don't know, maybe it's me. I guess I'm not cynical enough to a get kick out of that in superhero movie.