The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - Part 152

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Cheers!

A couple things though- 1. Nolan himself said that having to recast the role "wasn't ideal", 2. Rachel and Joker are two very different animals. Rachel was probably the least popular thing about BB, whereas Heath's performance was just so instantly iconic and so fresh in everyone's mind, I feel like it just would've just added so much baggage to the movie to recast it immediately. Lastly, Rachel was essential to the story of TDK, Joker just 'worked' as this destructive force of nature that tears through Act 2 of the trilogy and then fades away as mysteriously as he appeared.
 
Like Batlobster said Heath's performance blew the world away with it's greatness. Whereas Katie got a Razzie nomination and was the most criticized actor in BB.

You can't compare the recasting of Rachel to recasting the Joker. It's apples and oranges. The idea of someone else playing Joker in TDKR is a horrendous thought. Just like recasting Bale, or Oldman, or Caine would have been so off putting.
 
Katie was nominated for a Razzie? That's a bit harsh IMO. Yeah, she was easily the weak link of the cast and I much prefer Maggie Gyllenhaal but I didn't think she was THAT bad.
 
Maggie's Rachel was just mopey and unlikable the whole time, either complaining or rolling her eyes or frowning at everything Bruce, Harvey, Alfred, etc. did. At least Holmes' Rachel had some life and energy to her, despite Holmes not being an actress anywhere near Maggie's calibre. Honestly I felt Maggie phoned it in... easily the worst performance of the film.
 
They were both fine but nothing great. Easily the weakest performances of each film, but that's because you have a cast that includes a ton of powerhouses. Katie fit the Rachel that was needed in Begins, Maggie fit the Rachel that was needed to be with Harvey.
 
Some of us were talking about this in another thread, but overall, I'm just not a fan of the Rachel Dawes character. And I felt like they were completely different characters. Holmes actually felt like a childhood friend, whereas Maggie's felt like an coworker who's always pissed that you haven't turned in your work on time, and the boss is going to yell at you. They were so drastically different form one another. But overall, I'm not a fan of the character.

Her and Robin John Blake and stuff.
 
Rachel was a character with a handicap to begin with, because she was always more of an idea than an actual character. That's not to say she was two-dimensional or anything, but the sole purpose for her existence was to symbolize what Bruce couldn't have as long as he's Batman. And once you establish that (which they did at the end of Begins), there is no more need for her. Which is why they probably killed her off in TDK, though her role then arguably shifted from an idea to a plot device to get Harvey to Two-Face in the span of one film.

That being stated, I don't think she was a bad character. I never hated her, but I also never loved her.
 
I'd agree that both were 'fine', but certainly the weak links in their respective casts. Rachel as a character filled a necessary plot function, but due to being played by two different actresses it never got to be developed into a living and breathing character.

However, I do think Maggie's performance in the build up to her death scene was good. The moment she realizes she's about to die is really devastating.
 
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Yeah, Rachel was really little more than a plot device. I hate the character either way. It was really predictable that she'd be killed off in TDK.
 
Bale definitely had better chemistry with Holmes than Gyllenhaal. It wasn't sizzling by any means, but for some reason, it was a little more believable.
 
Holmes actually acted like she cared about Bruce, whereas you never get the sense that Maggie's Rachel really cares about Harvey or Bruce. She acts more like she merely "tolerates" them.
 
#TeamKatie

I don't think Katie was any worse than say Blake Lively in GL.
 
Katie was nominated for a Razzie? That's a bit harsh IMO. Yeah, she was easily the weak link of the cast and I much prefer Maggie Gyllenhaal but I didn't think she was THAT bad.

Rachel was a character with a handicap to begin with, because she was always more of an idea than an actual character. That's not to say she was two-dimensional or anything, but the sole purpose for her existence was to symbolize what Bruce couldn't have as long as he's Batman. And once you establish that (which they did at the end of Begins), there is no more need for her. Which is why they probably killed her off in TDK, though her role then arguably shifted from an idea to a plot device to get Harvey to Two-Face in the span of one film.

That being stated, I don't think she was a bad character. I never hated her, but I also never loved her.

Thumps up to both of these.
 
Cheers!

A couple things though- 1. Nolan himself said that having to recast the role "wasn't ideal", 2. Rachel and Joker are two very different animals. Rachel was probably the least popular thing about BB, whereas Heath's performance was just so instantly iconic and so fresh in everyone's mind, I feel like it just would've just added so much baggage to the movie to recast it immediately. Lastly, Rachel was essential to the story of TDK, Joker just 'worked' as this destructive force of nature that tears through Act 2 of the trilogy and then fades away as mysteriously as he appeared.

Hi there, BatLobsterRises. :)

Yeah, that's why I said I respected Nolan's decision. It was just what I'd have liked. But I understand Nolan decided that way out of respect for the late Ledger and them being so close during the Dark Knight shooting, not so much for the effect on the audience. I just remember his line "we're bound to do this forever" and forever became never... :( Anyways, it was just a thought.

Cheers.



Like Batlobster said Heath's performance blew the world away with it's greatness. Whereas Katie got a Razzie nomination and was the most criticized actor in BB.

You can't compare the recasting of Rachel to recasting the Joker. It's apples and oranges. The idea of someone else playing Joker in TDKR is a horrendous thought. Just like recasting Bale, or Oldman, or Caine would have been so off putting.

Hi there, The Joker. :)

A "horrendous thought"? I'm sorry to have caused mental distress. :(

But as I said, it would have been visually less distracting as the Joker was mainly make-up whereas all those characters you mention go with their own face.

Cheers.


Rachel was a character with a handicap to begin with, because she was always more of an idea than an actual character. That's not to say she was two-dimensional or anything, but the sole purpose for her existence was to symbolize what Bruce couldn't have as long as he's Batman. And once you establish that (which they did at the end of Begins), there is no more need for her. Which is why they probably killed her off in TDK, though her role then arguably shifted from an idea to a plot device to get Harvey to Two-Face in the span of one film.

That being stated, I don't think she was a bad character. I never hated her, but I also never loved her.

Evening, Shikamaru. :)

I agree that Rachel felt more like a literary device than an actual character. Not a very good love interest either.

Cheers.
 
schereZada has to be the most polite and gracious noob ever, lol. Love it. :woot:
 
I always found Maggie's lack of chemistry with Bale actually made Rachel's stance on not wanting to wait for Bruce to stop being Batman and moving on with Harvey more believable. At that point in TDK a life with Bruce was just not in the cards and merely a pipe dream.
 
Hi there, The Joker. :)

A "horrendous thought"? I'm sorry to have caused mental distress. :(

But as I said, it would have been visually less distracting as the Joker was mainly make-up whereas all those characters you mention go with their own face.

Cheers.

You must not put much stock into actors or their performances if you are happy to replace them as long as they have a less distracting visual appearance. I wouldn't give a toss if they got a Heath Ledger lookalike for TDKR because he still wouldn't be Heath Ledger. No actor could play the role the way Heath did because there's only one Heath Ledger.

Why do you think people are so against recasting a role? Unless the actor who originally played the part is truly terrible, audiences don't want to see recasts. Actors make roles their own if they're good at them. And needless to say Heath certainly fell into that category playing the Joker. The notion that someone should replace him in Nolan's movie universe is one of the worst ideas ever.
 
The Joker was always a no-win situation. If a new actor gave the same performance as Heath, it would be in poor taste and come off as a knockoff. If he acted totally different, it would be a continuity error.

Regardless, I wouldn't have wanted a new Nolan-film Joker either way. Even now in a new continuity, my mind's still not ready for a new Joker. I'm looking forward to Jared Leto's take, think he can pull it off, but I'm not crazily hyped over it like I was going into TDK. And while part of that is due to my skepticism on the DCCU, a far bigger part of it has to do with Heath and the impression he left on me.
 
Katie was nominated for a Razzie? That's a bit harsh IMO. Yeah, she was easily the weak link of the cast and I much prefer Maggie Gyllenhaal but I didn't think she was THAT bad.

The way I understand it, The Razzies nominations are not about how awful the performance was per se, but a combination of that and how "fun" it would be to nominate a certain actor / actress. I'm sure there were worse performances in mainstream movies during that period, but because of the Tom Cruise backlash, they decided to nominate Holmes. Just a theory of course.
 
The Joker was always a no-win situation. If a new actor gave the same performance as Heath, it would be in poor taste and come off as a knockoff. If he acted totally different, it would be a continuity error.

Regardless, I wouldn't have wanted a new Nolan-film Joker either way. Even now in a new continuity, my mind's still not ready for a new Joker. I'm looking forward to Jared Leto's take, think he can pull it off, but I'm not crazily hyped over it like I was going into TDK. And while part of that is due to my skepticism on the DCCU, a far bigger part of it has to do with Heath and the impression he left on me.
Not only that, he's not debuting in a Batman movie.
 
Time flies really fast. TDKR is now on TNT.
 
You must not put much stock into actors or their performances if you are happy to replace them as long as they have a less distracting visual appearance. I wouldn't give a toss if they got a Heath Ledger lookalike for TDKR because he still wouldn't be Heath Ledger. No actor could play the role the way Heath did because there's only one Heath Ledger.

Why do you think people are so against recasting a role? Unless the actor who originally played the part is truly terrible, audiences don't want to see recasts. Actors make roles their own if they're good at them. And needless to say Heath certainly fell into that category playing the Joker. The notion that someone should replace him in Nolan's movie universe is one of the worst ideas ever.

Hi there, The Joker. :)

I am totally sure almost no one casts someone if they're thinking of replacing him. And most of recasts are not a happy occasion either, I think. Most recasts probably happen when the actor doesn't work on the role, when they don't want to (or can't) return for the sequel or when they die. :( James Bond was constantly recast, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I was expecting the third Batman movie to end with a bang, but Bane (and even less Thalia) couldn't pull it off in the villain department, which made me miss the Joker even more. :csad:

Now I'm not too sure if people get this is a new continuity and this new Batman and Joker are NOT supposed to be the ones they saw in Nolan's movies. Who knows how many are out there thinking this is Bale's and Ledger's characters recast. :wow:

But I'm sure there are worse ideas. Like a twist where Bane is not the mind behind the plot, a young policeman just guesses Batman's identity, he becomes its successor without proper training or knowing Batman that much and they name him "Robin" in the last scene. :funny:

Cheers.



The Joker was always a no-win situation. If a new actor gave the same performance as Heath, it would be in poor taste and come off as a knockoff. If he acted totally different, it would be a continuity error.

Regardless, I wouldn't have wanted a new Nolan-film Joker either way. Even now in a new continuity, my mind's still not ready for a new Joker. I'm looking forward to Jared Leto's take, think he can pull it off, but I'm not crazily hyped over it like I was going into TDK. And while part of that is due to my skepticism on the DCCU, a far bigger part of it has to do with Heath and the impression he left on me.

Hello, Shikamaru. :)

How do you feel about having a new Batman? I mean, beyond having Affleck in the role, how do you feel about replacing Christian Bale.




The way I understand it, The Razzies nominations are not about how awful the performance was per se, but a combination of that and how "fun" it would be to nominate a certain actor / actress. I'm sure there were worse performances in mainstream movies during that period, but because of the Tom Cruise backlash, they decided to nominate Holmes. Just a theory of course.

Howdy, I Am The Knight. :)

Batman Begins was a bad choice for Holmes. I mean, the cast was really solid and talented, so she stood out as the weak link even more. I have to admit her presence was irritating to me. She didn't look or feel an emotionally mature woman. Did she attend to get her award, btw? I've heard some actors do. :P

Cheers.



Not only that, he's not debuting in a Batman movie.

Hi, shauner111. :)

Now I come to think of it... not only that... the new Batman is not debuting in a Batman movie. *mind blows*

See you.
 
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