The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[The Batman]

@The Batman-

I don't disagree that a lot of them are unremarkable. But I also am aware that, personally that I'm getting harder to impress now because of how much I've seen from the genre. MoS, for example- I know there were flaws that took me out of the movie held me back from enjoying that movie as much as I wanted to. But I also was expecting a reboot on par with Batman Begins, which factored somewhere into my lingering disappointment somewhere I'm sure.

For me, MOS was basically the first two Donner films mixed together with BB, with the same ol' "Destroy the city" third act.

Then you have Marvel...I'm thinking of Ant-Man since it's the freshest in my mind. Now, if this movie had come out maybe 10 years ago, I probably would've enjoyed it a lot more. Now, it just felt so...as you say, unremarkable.

I think it still would've found it unremarkable even if it came out 10 years ago, as decent as I think it is.

I don't think a film feeling like a comic book is necessarily a bad thing, but I also dislike the notion that Marvel's typical breezy, lighthearted tone with tons of jokes = "feels just like a comic book come to life!" Their tone (which Raimi pretty much laid the blueprint for with the first Spider-Man) has kind of become the go-to cinematic approximation of what a comic book feels like, and I think there are many more ways to skin a cat there. Comic books are very diverse. We seem to be caught in this "dark and gritty" vs. "bright and colorful" polarization. That said, I do think it would do some CBMs good to stop worrying so much about trying to mimic the feel of a comic and focus on being a good movie first. While they're both visually based, they're still very different forms of storytelling IMO. But again, with the cinematic universe model...the lines are blurring as films become more serialized.

I don't even particularly care if it mimicked a comic book in terms of tone, just in the way of story. Seems like there's more creativity in a superhero comic compared to a superhero film.

 

[BatLobster]

It's too bad they never shot the entire original script. I would do almost anything to see a three and a half hour version of TDKR.

That would've been unreal. The ironic thing is we're sitting here with hindsight and thinking a super long cut would've fleshed out everything and perfected the movie, but the reality is a movie that long would've probably not gone over too well with a lot of people who already rag on the movie for being self-important as it is.

For context though, a 400 page script would actually be the equivalent of like a 6 1/2 hour movie lol. Basically Jonah wrote an entire trilogy's worth of material for TDKR alone. That's nuts.

 

[shauner111]

That's mental!

They could have shot it for a HBO mini-series heh.

 

[The Shape]

For context though, a 400 page script would actually be the equivalent of like a 6 1/2 hour movie lol. Basically Jonah wrote an entire trilogy's worth of material for TDKR alone. That's nuts.

Nolan's quote that Jonah's first draft was "400 pages or something" always struck me as an offhand (but also fairly sizeable) exaggeration.

 

[BatLobster]

Nolan's quote that Jonah's first draft was "400 pages or something" always struck me as an offhand (but also fairly sizeable) exaggeration.

It could've been, maybe. I can't remember but I'm pretty sure there was a quote from Jonah sort of corroborating it and saying he held nothing back, just threw as many ideas as he could at it and left it to Chris to sort it out. Meaning it was obviously never intended to be a shooting script. I'm not 100% sure about the other quote though.

The only reason I'm inclined to believe it's closer to the truth than not is how thorough the Nolans tend to be for any of their projects, and this was the biggest, most epic in scale movie they had attempted yet. And I can easily picture Jonah trying to come up with a plethora of good ideas to get Chris excited, who was probably playing coy about returning.

 

[Ryan]

Are there any links to this quote by Nolan about a 400 page script? Just curious.

I'll keep an open mind opening night, but I think what I liked best about the Nolan trilogy is that he took elements from a lot of the great graphic novels and incorporated them in his own particular way. So far, this Batfleck is looking like a straight onto screen translation (right down to the suit) of Miller's Dark Knight Returns. To be honest, when I first read about TDKR and the 8 year gap, I was assuming that Nolan was going to be doing the older embittered Batman.

 

[BatLobster]

Ryan, I posted the quote on the last page. Here's the link: http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/ne...on-the-dark-knight-rises-literary-inspiration

Speaking of Jonah Nolan, the teaser for Westworld just dropped. It was a quick tease but it looks really promising.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks BatlobsterRises. It would be interesting to hear what was left out and if it would make any difference. I read an interesting piece about how Bane's "knitting" in a few scenes is related to one of the main evil character in a Tale of Two Cities. I believe you see Bane playing with string during the court hearing scene.

 

[BatLobster]

Yup, that's a nod. There's also a chapter of AToTC called "The Fire Rises". There are probably plenty more references than went over my head. I've never actually read the book, but it's one of those classics you hear so much about over the years that feel like you know it.

 

[Victarion]

Talia is apparently inspired by a character from AToTC called Madame DeFarge. I think that's how you spell her name. I haven't read the novel, but I've heard the character mentioned in reference to TDKR.

 

[titansupes]

Heath Ledger's Joker diary revealed in new doco Heath Ledger: Too Young to Die-

[YT]kJMoKMieNn8[/YT]

 

[Greens]

That's always been a very interesting video. Tons of Clockwork Orange pictures. It looks like he wrote down all of his dialogue in the diary, with a few minor adjustments. That, or the script wasn't locked yet.

You can also see the infamous list of things the Joker would find funny, including AIDS and brunch.

Also a pic of him in the bank robbery outfit

 

[The Joker]

Heath Ledger's Joker diary revealed in new doco Heath Ledger: Too Young to Die-

[YT]kJMoKMieNn8[/YT]

It's not really new. That came out over a year and a half ago. But it's so cool. I spotted comic clippings from The Killing Joke, The Laughing Fish, and Morrison's prose Joker story in Batman #663. The latter is where Heath got that list of things Joker would find amusing like blind babies, land mines, AIDS etc.

I think I also spotted a pic of hyenas.

 

[titansupes]

^ I thought I'd seen something of it before, but didn't have the patience for a quick Google.

 

[The Shape]

I really hate when people say Heath was obsessed with this "dark" role to the point that it ruined him and eventually "killed" him. In reality, he had said it was the most fun he'd ever had in a role.

 

[AnneFan]

How do you feel that some "fans" started ****ting on the Nolan trilogy?

I admit I'm pretty excited about BvS and Affleck as a Batman fan, but I'll never not like TDK Trilogy. Batman Begins is a solid movie, and the best reboot hands down. The Dark Knight speaks for itself. I have some issues with The Dark Knight Rises, but I still like it. I actually gave TDK Rises a watch recently and had a good time. The cast of Oldman, Freeman, Caine and Bale make it all worthwhile, and they really were a great regular crew to have. I especially love the first half of Rises, and most of the content from when Bruce escapes the pit. I actually think the reputation of TDK Rises will improve over time. I mean, it hardly has a bad reputation anyway. 87% on Rotten Tomatoes and it made a stack of cash at the box office. It has a lot more going for it than some big budget blockbusters can claim.

 

[The Batman]

IMO, TDKR was better than any CBM made in 2013 or this year, with the possible exception of Kingsman.

 

[Shikamaru]

Kingsman was the best CBM this year IMO, and it wasn't even on my radar.

 

[Greens]

IMO, TDKR was better than any CBM made in 2013 or this year, with the possible exception of Kingsman.

Agreed, although Man of Steel is a good runner-up coupled with Kingsman, but I know not everyone agrees with that.

 

[BatLobster]

Kingsman was a rollicking good time at the movies.

I wonder why the Ledger Diary clip is getting a round of press now. I guess the full doc is coming soon?

 

[AnneFan]

IMO, TDKR was better than any CBM made in 2013 or this year, with the possible exception of Kingsman.

I agree. TDK Rises probably bit off more than it could chew, but ambition is to be admired.

 

[Brother Jack]

I really hate when people say Heath was obsessed with this "dark" role to the point that it ruined him and eventually "killed" him. In reality, he had said it was the most fun he'd ever had in a role.

It's a really unfortunate misconception that I still see. And frankly a little insulting to the man himself.

 

[Thoix]

IMO, TDKR was better than any CBM made in 2013 or this year, with the possible exception of Kingsman.

I can definitely agree with this, but I really dug Man of Steel and Kingsman: The Secret Service. Nothing else in 2013 or 2015 really comes close IMO.

 

[Slade W]

I admit I'm pretty excited about BvS and Affleck as a Batman fan, but I'll never not like TDK Trilogy. Batman Begins is a solid movie, and the best reboot hands down. The Dark Knight speaks for itself. I have some issues with The Dark Knight Rises, but I still like it. I actually gave TDK Rises a watch recently and had a good time. The cast of Oldman, Freeman, Caine and Bale make it all worthwhile, and they really were a great regular crew to have. I especially love the first half of Rises, and most of the content from when Bruce escapes the pit. I actually think the reputation of TDK Rises will improve over time. I mean, it hardly has a bad reputation anyway. 87% on Rotten Tomatoes and it made a stack of cash at the box office. It has a lot more going for it than some big budget blockbusters can claim.

I think Rises suffered from there being very high expectations after the first two. It didn't quite reach those expectations and normally when that happens, people think that makes it poor. Just because something is not as good as it used to be does not make it poor. There were lots and lots of silly and ridiculous things that were overlooked in The Dark Knight which were scrutinised in Rises. The same happens with TV shows too. People cut the early seasons a lot of slack but then get more critical. I would say the first two were marginally better. The main thing The Dark Knight has over Rises is Ledger.


Begins was the best and one of the first grounded, superhero origin films which was properly made. The second film of the trilogy, The Dark Knight was a genre buster in terms of it's gravitas and how it portrayed a character such as the Joker. They made the superhero films that came before and after them look so ridiculous and silly that their own ridiculousness and sillyness was overlooked and ignored. The expectations for Rises were so high, it got to the point where people were almost not expecting a superhero film anymore but something more, and were then slightly disappointed that they got a superhero film.

Overall Rises is still one of the best superhero films. It is certainly a better film than all of the Marvel films. It has a better story, better acting performances, more interesting characters and more nuances etc. It is much closer to being a "proper" film than any of Marvels which have silly plots and have to rely on comedy to keep peoples interest throughout the majority of their films. Marvels films were not taken as seriously by critics as Nolan's Batman films (including Rises). I can understand why some people may believe that some of Marvels films are more fun and enjoyable to watch but I certainly would not say that any of them are better films (I should add that I am a big fan of Marvel's films and I enjoy them a lot. I may seem harsh on them here but that is only because I am comparing them to Nolan's Batman films and as good and enjoyable as they are/were, they do not compare favourably to TDK trilogy).

 

[The Joker]

Slade, you're factually wrong saying Marvel's movies are not taken as seriously as Nolan's by critics. Several of them have critical scores just as good or better than Begins and TDKR (none of them surpass TDK's because obviously TDK is the best and goes above and beyond the genre as a movie).

The rest of what you said is opinion, but I do agree that some of TDKR's criticism came from the fact that people were expecting a TDK 2.0 and didn't get it. Rises is easily the most flawed and weakest of the Nolan trilogy, but it's a solid CBM, and really the only one to break the "trilogy curse" of comic book films. It's certainly the third best Batman movie, too.