The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - Part 154

[BatLobster]

Honestly, I'm just glad we got a complete trilogy of films that are at the very least "good". It's something I try not to take for granted. Rises may go down in history as the "Return of the Jedi" of the series, but all things considered that's really not the worst legacy to have. For as much crap as Jedi got from Star Wars fans at the time, it's still an crucial part of the saga and it's got plenty of iconic moments in its own right. No fan's shelf would be complete without it. Especially after the prequels, it has aged just fine and has been more readily accepted as one of the good Star Wars films.

I guess maybe for some it will be more of a Godfather III, or worse. The movie will always have its passionate haters that will claim it's a terrible movie (yeah, no), but I think overall its legacy probably has nowhere to go but up, mainly because I think people were pretty tough on it to begin with due to how bitter the disappointment was for some, and I can see non-bandwagon hopping fans who love the first two films softening on it over time. I feel like I'm already starting to notice that a bit in this thread.

 

[BH/HHH]

Honestly, I'm just glad we got a complete trilogy of films that are at the very least "good". It's something I try not to take for granted. Rises may go down in history as the "Return of the Jedi" of the series, but all things considered that's really not the worst legacy to have. For as much crap as Jedi got from Star Wars fans at the time, it's still an crucial part of the saga and it's got plenty of iconic moments in its own right. No fan's shelf would be complete without it. Especially after the prequels, it has aged just fine and has been more readily accepted as one of the good Star Wars films.

I guess maybe for some it will be more of a Godfather III, or worse. The movie will always have its passionate haters that will claim it's a terrible movie (yeah, no), but I think overall its legacy probably has nowhere to go but up, mainly because I think people were pretty tough on it to begin with due to how bitter the disappointment was for some, and I can see non-bandwagon hopping fans who love the first two films softening on it over time. I feel like I'm already starting to notice that a bit in this thread.

Really great post

 

[Decepticonus]

Honestly, I'm just glad we got a complete trilogy of films that are at the very least "good". It's something I try not to take for granted. Rises may go down in history as the "Return of the Jedi" of the series, but all things considered that's really not the worst legacy to have. For as much crap as Jedi got from Star Wars fans at the time, it's still an crucial part of the saga and it's got plenty of iconic moments in its own right. No fan's shelf would be complete without it. Especially after the prequels, it has aged just fine and has been more readily accepted as one of the good Star Wars films.

I guess maybe for some it will be more of a Godfather III, or worse. The movie will always have its passionate haters that will claim it's a terrible movie (yeah, no), but I think overall its legacy probably has nowhere to go but up, mainly because I think people were pretty tough on it to begin with due to how bitter the disappointment was for some, and I can see non-bandwagon hopping fans who love the first two films softening on it over time. I feel like I'm already starting to notice that a bit in this thread.

Great post. I loved the film then and now, loved it actually ended instead of him just riding off into the night - it's been done and not really concluding. Though I like ROTJ, it's probably my favorite. TDK Trilogy is one of the few trilogies I enjoy all the way through.

 

[JackWhite]

Not only did the expectation for Rises to be TDK 2.0 hurt it for some, but a film with very little Batman in action was always going to be a problem for some folks to adjust too. Which is where I think the notion of these criticisms come from:

"Nothing happens for the first 30-45 minutes."

"Batman is a cripple for the majority of the film!"

It's cool to see a lot of people having it on their top 5 CBM lists, though. The legacy Rises!

 

[shauner111]

Nothing happens only plot, character, you know, the things that matter in a movie. The crowd just wants their Batman though..

 

[BatLobster]

Hard to blame 'em, but I do think it has a lot of impact when Batman IS on screen when they hold back. That was the same effect Batman Returns had on me as a kid too. Also the 1 hour wait to see Batman in BB.

 

[shauner111]

Naaaaaaaah, it's not that hard to blame em

 

[Shikamaru]

I think Rises suffered from there being very high expectations after the first two. It didn't quite reach those expectations and normally when that happens, people think that makes it poor. Just because something is not as good as it used to be does not make it poor. There were lots and lots of silly and ridiculous things that were overlooked in The Dark Knight which were scrutinised in Rises. The same happens with TV shows too. People cut the early seasons a lot of slack but then get more critical. I would say the first two were marginally better. The main thing The Dark Knight has over Rises is Ledger.


Begins was the best and one of the first grounded, superhero origin films which was properly made. The second film of the trilogy, The Dark Knight was a genre buster in terms of it's gravitas and how it portrayed a character such as the Joker. They made the superhero films that came before and after them look so ridiculous and silly that their own ridiculousness and sillyness was overlooked and ignored. The expectations for Rises were so high, it got to the point where people were almost not expecting a superhero film anymore but something more, and were then slightly disappointed that they got a superhero film.

Overall Rises is still one of the best superhero films. It is certainly a better film than all of the Marvel films. It has a better story, better acting performances, more interesting characters and more nuances etc. It is much closer to being a "proper" film than any of Marvels which have silly plots and have to rely on comedy to keep peoples interest throughout the majority of their films. Marvels films were not taken as seriously by critics as Nolan's Batman films (including Rises). I can understand why some people may believe that some of Marvels films are more fun and enjoyable to watch but I certainly would not say that any of them are better films (I should add that I am a big fan of Marvel's films and I enjoy them a lot. I may seem harsh on them here but that is only because I am comparing them to Nolan's Batman films and as good and enjoyable as they are/were, they do not compare favourably to TDK trilogy).

This is one of the oldest arguments we've discussed on here. "How can you say Rises is worse than xyz" or "how can you like xyz but not Rises?"

The answer to that is simple: I judge films by what they're trying to be, to what extent they achieve being that, and to what extent whatever they're trying to be is merited. Ideally, a truly great film manages to achieve all three of those components to near perfection. I'm referring to the likes of TDK, Terminator 2, TESB, Fight Club, Pulp Fiction, etc. You can't, for example, take a comedy film and drama film and argue one which is better than the other, but you can argue one achieved what it was trying to be better than the other one did.

That being said, The Avengers tries to be a big superhero event teamup...and it succeeds at being that. The Winter Soldier tries to be a 70's political thriller mixed in with the action and war themes of a Captain America comic...and it succeeds at being that. Guardians tries to be a fun space fantasy tale...and it succeeds at being that. The Wolverine tries to be a small personal story of a man haunted by his demons...and it succeeds at being that. I like all of those films because they knew what they were trying to be and in my opinion, they succeeded at being that.

The problem with Rises is that it tries to be TDK 2.0. It's a film that tries to recapture that same level of sophistication mixed in with grounded realism of Nolan's previous work, similar to how everytime we had a tentpole CBM there was at least one knockoff version that tried recapturing that magic (Superman '78 to Supergirl, SM1 to Story's FF films, Iron Man to Green Lantern, etc.). It sets up that high of a standard to itself, and it fails to reach that standard for some of us here. It's a "bad" film, but it's "bad" in that sense as opposed to in the Transformers sense. And in that particular sense, I would rank at least 6-7 of the 2013-15 CBM's over Rises.

 

[JackWhite]

I fully agree that TDKR tries to go for that same level of sophistication as TDK but that is comes up short in that regard. Mostly due to overall story tightness and how it follows up as a sequel to it.

If anything TDKR tried to be BB 2.0, at least more in the superficial sense (Ra's and the LOS being brought back). I think certain elements like, how the Dent cover up played out, was a big step back from the storytelling of TDK. It felt like Nolan had to gloss over it quickly to keep up with all of the other plot points/characters in the film. Now had this plot happened in TDK, I'm fairly positive Nolan would have expounded on it with much greater detail and weight.

 

[Decepticonus]

If anything TDKR tried to be BB 2.0, at least more in the superficial sense (Ra's and the LOS being brought back)

Yeah, agreed somewhat, which I liked cause this movie gave me more appreciation for BB, since TDK kinda blew it out of the water at the time. Though this film feels a bit more like a sequel as TDK stands on its own pretty well. But it holds up well as I feel it wraps things up quite well & nicely, which most so-called trilogies do not. I felt IM3 was tacked on with the ending or Spider-Man 3, haha, yeah that ending was quite a downer.

 

[Frankeh]

Frankly TDKR for me would've been much better if it had focused on Batman, Catwoman and Bane as a solitary villain instead of the LoS and Talia al Ghul and OWS/poor overtaking the rich themes. As it is it's cluttered and the parts are often better than the sum.

 

[Decepticonus]

Frankly TDKR for me would've been much better if it had focused on Batman, Catwoman and Bane as a solitary villain instead of the LoS and Talia al Ghul and OWS/poor overtaking the rich themes. As it is it's cluttered and the parts are often better than the sum.

Not that much focus on Talia, at least not as the villain.

 

[JackWhite]

Yeah, agreed somewhat, which I liked cause this movie gave me more appreciation for BB, since TDK kinda blew it out of the water at the time. Though this film feels a bit more like a sequel as TDK stands on its own pretty well. But it holds up well as I feel it wraps things up quite well & nicely, which most so-called trilogies do not. I felt IM3 was tacked on with the ending or Spider-Man 3, haha, yeah that ending was quite a downer.

TDKR is leagues ahead of SM3. LEAGUES! I still have not seen IM3 though, so I can't speak on that.

But this begs another question - How do you go about creating a third film in a trilogy? Do you go back to the first film and tie things together/revisit them? Or do you keep going forward, or expanding the balloon as Nolan once said, from the second film? It's kind of a subjective question really.

Before TDKR even had a title I actually envisioned the third film being an inverse of BB, where the freaks were the mob, instead of guys like Falcone in BB. But that's probably what most of us expected anyways.

 

[JackWhite]

Talia just needed more post-reveal screen time alongside Bane. I was pretty shocked with how quickly she died after her initial reveal. And people say Two-Face was wasted. At least he had his reveal scene with Gordon, an epic scene with the Joker, went on a rampage and still had one final scene with Batman and Gordon as his sendoff.

 

[BatLobster]

Personally I think TDKR perfectly nailed the balance of what I want from a third film. I feel like thesis, antithesis, synthesis is nice tried and true model and this trilogy definitely follows it. TDKR feels like a blend of BB and TDK. If anything I think the huge disparity between the first two movies might've put the third film in a somewhat awkward position to fill that gap, but I think TDKR did so pretty admirably. For any nitpicks I could make about execution, I think ultimately they still made the right movie. I know some definitely don't agree, but to me all the story beats feel they're where they need to be. I also think switching genres throughout was a great technique. It definitely effects the storytelling too. I cannot picture an ancient prison with a blind doctor in a police procedural type of movie like TDK, just like I can't picture a detailed examination of the inner workings of a political coverup in a sweeping epic like TDKR. Switching genres is cheating in a way, but it's an elegant cheat. That's what filmmaking is all about. That's why TDK blew people away, because it felt like it was cut from an entirely different cloth than BB (or any previous CBM for that matter).

A big reason I love TDKR is, before it came out...I felt we had Begins, and then we had TDK. The movies were connected no doubt, but they were just such different entities in my mind. TDKR feels like the glue for me. Now I think of them as one big story- The Dark Knight Trilogy. By placing a heavy emphasis on Begins, while maybe it denies itself of a chance to be more original, it also gives Begins a lot more weight in the overall story, which I appreciate. I felt like I was watching Begins with new eyes after TDKR. Again, it's not that it wasn't one story when it was just 2 movies. I know they work thematically as a duology. But stylistically, Rises felt like the natural culmination of both movies. And putting a definitive ending on something always makes it feel more complete.

 

[AnneFan]

Lately I've fallen in love with the movie again. I am well aware of the flaws (and I think it's the weakest in the trilogy), but I find myself caring less about them, because there's quality content which makes it all worthwhile. Generally speaking it has a good beginning, a saggy middle and a good end. I think the ending was bittersweet in true Batman fashion. Saving the day and Batman remembered as a hero. But Bruce Wayne presumed dead and forgotten, minus his close allies who he secretly gets in touch with. As Alfred said earlier in the movie, Gotham had nothing but pain and misery for Bruce. Making Wayne Manor a home for orphans was a nice touch, too.

 

[JackWhite]

Yes, the genre switching is something I've really appreciated in this trilogy.

 

[Brother Jack]

Honestly, I'm just glad we got a complete trilogy of films that are at the very least "good". It's something I try not to take for granted. Rises may go down in history as the "Return of the Jedi" of the series, but all things considered that's really not the worst legacy to have. For as much crap as Jedi got from Star Wars fans at the time, it's still an crucial part of the saga and it's got plenty of iconic moments in its own right. No fan's shelf would be complete without it. Especially after the prequels, it has aged just fine and has been more readily accepted as one of the good Star Wars films.

I guess maybe for some it will be more of a Godfather III, or worse. The movie will always have its passionate haters that will claim it's a terrible movie (yeah, no), but I think overall its legacy probably has nowhere to go but up, mainly because I think people were pretty tough on it to begin with due to how bitter the disappointment was for some, and I can see non-bandwagon hopping fans who love the first two films softening on it over time. I feel like I'm already starting to notice that a bit in this thread.

I don't think Rises is/will be known as the Return of the Jedi of the TDKT because Rises is generally thought to be the second best whereas Jedi, as much as I might love it, is generally seen as the least of the OT. But all that is just pedantry. As time has gone on I increasingly see the three as one large story as you have but even beyond that see each film as unique entries in their own right that are not really meant to be stacked against each other like that. Basically, I find it useless to rank and compare them when each film has different agendas. It really is one of the greatest trilogies in cinema and maybe the gold standard for pulling off the balancing act of creating each part with its own individual identity while still making it all work in conjunction.

 

[BatLobster]

I totally agree with what you're saying- I personally don't think it deserves to have that rep but the reality is it does get ragged on quite a bit and a lot of people do call it the weakest. I think it's legacy is still somewhat up in the air, so I was looking at it from a worst-case scenario type view. Then again, I think the GA's perspective on the film is a bit different than hardcore Batman fans'.

Anyway, it's to see a bit of love getting thrown the movie's way in this thread. Totally agree with this:

and maybe the gold standard for pulling off the balancing act of creating each part with its own individual identity while still making it all work in conjunction.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Yup, that's a nod. There's also a chapter of AToTC called "The Fire Rises". There are probably plenty more references than went over my head. I've never actually read the book, but it's one of those classics you hear so much about over the years that feel like you know it.

I found this site that has some of the similarities: https://backtothebookshelf.wordpres...knight-rises-and-a-tale-of-two-cities-part-1/

 

[DACrowe]

Frankly TDKR for me would've been much better if it had focused on Batman, Catwoman and Bane as a solitary villain instead of the LoS and Talia al Ghul and OWS/poor overtaking the rich themes. As it is it's cluttered and the parts are often better than the sum.

First, the "OWS" is actually more generally about populism, demagoguery, and even the French Revolution than it is Occupy Wall Street...since it was filming before OWS was a thing.

But beyond that, to cut out these themes would have made it a much more boring and generic superhero movie like so many others today. Rises has problems, but cutting it down to just a hero versus villain movie is the antithesis of why these movies are so well regarded.

 

[DACrowe]

I totally agree with what you're saying- I personally don't think it deserves to have that rep but the reality is it does get ragged on quite a bit and a lot of people do call it the weakest. I think it's legacy is still somewhat up in the air, so I was looking at it from a worst-case scenario type view. Then again, I think the GA's perspective on the film is a bit different than hardcore Batman fans'.

Anyway, it's to see a bit of love getting thrown the movie's way in this thread. Totally agree with this:

It is strange, its legacy online with the fan community seems like it has been run "ragged." But it still was a critical hit with many raves, a box office behemoth, and even had a (failed) Oscar campaign. But beyond that, I noticed in another thread in Misc. Comic Films where in 2015 people were asked to rank their current top 5 CBM, it kept popping up quite a bit.

I think the whole Nolan trilogy will be shortchanged over the next year in the shadow of Batman v Superman. But after a few movies in that universe, I think all three, and especially Rises, will be much better regarded than they already are in the fan community. I think in the film criticism community, they already are still considered the overall gold standard for the genre.

 

[Victarion]

Only thing I'd cut is "I feel it in my bones" in favor of a jab at how easy it would be for someone to link Batman's appearance with Bruce's absences and returns to Gotham. I am looking forward to how DC approaches the shared universe too, but this is still probably going to be my favorite CBM trilogy.

 

[Ryan]

Personally I think TDKR perfectly nailed the balance of what I want from a third film. I feel like thesis, antithesis, synthesis is nice tried and true model and this trilogy definitely follows it. .

It's all a matter of perspective and personal taste and I think that for the same reasons you love TDKR, this is why I had issues with it. When I went into TDK, I thought it would be a more direct sequel to BB, but at times it felt like an entirely different film and I was enjoyed this idea. Other than the resolving the Dent coverup up (which was basically glossed over), I expected TDKR to be an entirely new experience as well. Instead, it felt more like the Seinfeld finale. Flashbacks of Two face, Obi wan Ras showing up, return of the Los etc. Even some of the promotional items such as the posters were even taken from TDK photoshoots.
I thought all of the performances were fine and I still really liked Hardy as Bane, however I would have ditched the whole Talia thing. For someone that has watched it or studied it more then myself, I'd like to hear their thoughts on Bane's motives for destroying Gotham or going after Batman. I always thought that due to Talia, I had some reason issues with Bane because he seemed to lack any clear motive, other then helping Talia achieve her goal and I'm assuming this is out of love. With Ras, it was about cleansing gotham, with the Joker it was about creating chaos and showing that everyone will break their rules under a given set of circumstances, with bane....? Pull Talia out of the film, and I can't quite see why he was going after gotham or Batman.

 

[The Shape]

Lately I've fallen in love with the movie again. I am well aware of the flaws (and I think it's the weakest in the trilogy), but I find myself caring less about them, because there's quality content which makes it all worthwhile. Generally speaking it has a good beginning, a saggy middle and a good end. I think the ending was bittersweet in true Batman fashion. Saving the day and Batman remembered as a hero. But Bruce Wayne presumed dead and forgotten, minus his close allies who he secretly gets in touch with. As Alfred said earlier in the movie, Gotham had nothing but pain and misery for Bruce. Making Wayne Manor a home for orphans was a nice touch, too.

I never stopped loving it.