The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

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The difference is, Winter Soldier isn't like Star Wars. SW shows that tone from the get-go. Winter Soldier waits until it's in the final act to bring in the same quips you see/hear in Avengers.
 
the only one who quipped was the Falcon. Cap, Maria Hill, Fury and Widow were all serious. It wasn't even close to the quipping of Age of Ultron.
 
Obviously. It's not on that level, but it's still there. As a matter of fact, i remember Black Widow doing a little bit herself earlier on in the movie. But i don't remember it being there much at all throughout most of the film. I recall sitting down with my friends and we were all muttering to ourselves like "for the most part, this is way more serious than anything they've done". Then Falcon starts loving every second of a situation that it pretty crazy and serious. It was a "oh boy, they couldn't resist, could they?" moment.

Speaking of Maria Hill, something about that character/actress, she's just always aware that she's in a comic book movie. There's always a certain facial expression, remark, coming from her.

Not to pick Marvel apart, since im still a fan of Winter Soldier. But moments like Nick Fury getting out of that scene in his car, with a record-breaking fast exit plan that includes a giant hole in a sewer or whatever it was (it's been a while so dont shoot me)...can we not be so convenient? That's an excellent scene by the way, but we get the button on it, and it's facepalm city all over again. It bothered me more the second time i saw it.

I hope DC can break some conventions. Try not to repeat Marvel's style.
 
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You are right about that. Those convenient way outs were the biggest flaws of TWS. They should've set up the cutting device thingy, and Black Widow's hologram face thingy earlier in the film or a previous film. But they are very minor.
 
On the subject of Batman vs Superman:

I've come to the conclusion that i'm going to be disappointed with the villain, no matter who it is. The options are limited to Doomsday, Metallo or a variation of Bizarro. I don't care for any of them.

I don't understand why they couldn't just make a Batman vs Superman movie and keep their big showdown for the finale. Why does Diana have to fight as Wonder Woman? Why does she even have to be WW in this? I would keep this film as simple as possible. You can have Luthor mess around with Bats and Supes without turning Superman into Bizarro. You can keep Diana's WW suit a surprise until the very end or introduce it in the Wonder Woman film instead of crowding this movie for the sake of selling toys and doing a Justice League prequel. Which is why they're doing that in the first place. It's just their way of playing catch-up to Marvel as fast as they can.

Im NOT one of those people who wanted a "proper Man of Steel sequel" instead of this. You can treat this as a sequel to MOS no problem. Heck, Bats and Luthor were hinted at in the first one. But now they're just overdoing it.

I would love to be proven wrong though.

Brainiac, Darkseid..now those are villains that you can do interesting things with. The other three? Meh. Just mindless crap, chosen for spectacle only.
 
I disagree that they should have saved their final showdown until the end, for me they need to come together towards the end of the film to take down a villain together.

I also disagree that they're pushing these characters together to catch up to Marvel. They're simply putting them together to then branch off into other projects. The way Marvels doing it isn't the only way and people should remember that DC were going to make JL Mortal before with the plan for characters to spin of into their own movies.
 
On the subject of Batman vs Superman:

I've come to the conclusion that i'm going to be disappointed with the villain, no matter who it is. The options are limited to Doomsday, Metallo or a variation of Bizarro. I don't care for any of them.

I don't understand why they couldn't just make a Batman vs Superman movie and keep their big showdown for the finale. Why does Diana have to fight as Wonder Woman? Why does she even have to be WW in this? I would keep this film as simple as possible. You can have Luthor mess around with Bats and Supes without turning Superman into Bizarro. You can keep Diana's WW suit a surprise until the very end or introduce it in the Wonder Woman film instead of crowding this movie for the sake of selling toys and doing a Justice League prequel. Which is why they're doing that in the first place. It's just their way of playing catch-up to Marvel as fast as they can.

Im NOT one of those people who wanted a "proper Man of Steel sequel" instead of this. You can treat this as a sequel to MOS no problem. Heck, Bats and Luthor were hinted at in the first one. But now they're just overdoing it.

I would love to be proven wrong though.

Brainiac, Darkseid..now those are villains that you can do interesting things with. The other three? Meh. Just mindless crap, chosen for spectacle only.
This ain't the type of film where you have a good villain. The drama is coming from the superheroes facing against each other. They just need an excuse to stop whining and band together.
 
If you're not going to have a good physical villain (one that is interesting) outside of Batman/Superman, then don't have one at all. Lex Luthor should be enough, with Zod's consciousness haunting Superman.

I disagree that they should have saved their final showdown until the end, for me they need to come together towards the end of the film to take down a villain together.

I also disagree that they're pushing these characters together to catch up to Marvel. They're simply putting them together to then branch off into other projects. The way Marvels doing it isn't the only way and people should remember that DC were going to make JL Mortal before with the plan for characters to spin of into their own movies.
Why do they need to take down a physical villain together? Please explain why this needs to happen, if you have Luthor and a movie that is titled Batman VERSUS Superman. Is it because it's a formula and they need to stick to a formula? Why stick to the formula?

It's both. They rushed this in order to play catch-up, just like what other studios are trying to do. Anybody who says differently, is not thinking realistically. But yes, it's also to branch off into other projects. So why do we need to see Diana in action as Wonder Woman here? Fighting with or against the likes of Superman/Batman. Why? You can have Diana as a character, she branches off into her own solo, then into Justice League 4 months later, without using her in action in this one. If Aquaman or Cyborg have cameos then that's a good way to use them here. Why not use Diana Prince as a small, but important character, where she can have scenes with Bruce, Lex and be the one who talks some sense into the two leads?

It's a rush job, and that's what ill think of it until i see the movie.
 
Why do they need to take down a physical villain together? Please explain why this needs to happen, if you have Luthor and a movie that is titled Batman VERSUS Superman. Is it because it's a formula and they need to stick to a formula? Why stick to the formula?

No because for me, you can't end the film with the two fighting. Especially in a film called Dawn of Justice. They need to come together and work together to show they can be a team. It is a bit of a personal preference but in my opinion it's a necessary one.

It's both. They rushed this in order to play catch-up, just like what other studios are trying to do. Anybody who says differently, is not thinking realistically. But yes, it's also to branch off into other projects. So why do we need to see Diana in action as Wonder Woman here? Fighting with or against the likes of Superman/Batman. Why? You can have Diana as a character, she branches off into her own solo, then into Justice League 4 months later, without using her in action in this one. If Aquaman or Cyborg have cameos then that's a good way to use them here. Why not use Diana Prince as a small, but important character, where she can have scenes with Bruce, Lex and be the one who talks some sense into the two leads?

It's a rush job, and that's what ill think of it until i see the movie.

Fair enough agree to disagree, for me a film they've taken their time with cannot be considered a rush job. We need to see the film to see if we right or wrong here really.
 
They added that Dawn of Justice to the end of it because of what they added in the script. Not the other way around, im sure.

They can still end the film with a fight, and have 5 or 10 minutes left to unite the two leads together with Diana. Unite them together to form a league. There's your cliffhanger for Justice League. We don't need Trinity in action to accomplish that.

If the final product looks like they took their time to put all the pieces together for a Trinity vs "Villain", then fine. But i'd rather not see a dumb robotic villain in the final act. Im tired of seeing CG buildings falling and superheroes flying into each other for 20 minutes straight. This is what we're going to get, at least at the tail end of the Bats/Supes fight....and then we're going to get it again later in the film. It's a bit unnecessary.
 
If you are tired of seeing CGI buildings falling in a superhero movie, it's time to bow out because that ain't going away any time soon. Might as well stick to Daredevil and Jessica Jones.
 
I too wish Bats vs Supes was the climax. I've always felt that way. I just feel like anything following that is going to feel like a letdown dramatically.

The "learn to coexist, team up to take down the bigger bad" angle...I'm sorry, I know fans are gonna go nuts for that, but to me it just feels a bit on the corny side considering this film is being marketed as a clash of the titans.

But given what the film is mandated to accomplish in terms of world-building for future films, there's probably no way around it. I think that's part of what is somewhat eye-rolling about it though. It feels inevitable in a very obvious corporate kind of way.
 
Bats vs Supes as the climax won't have the necessary tension. We all know supes is gonna win if he tries. In DKR it worked because the focus was on Batman. How long he can hold out. It was a culminating elseworlds story, so there was an impending sense of doom to it. BvS is the exact opposite. It's a beginning for the DCEU, so you know Batman won't be in any real danger.
 
True enough, I suppose. I guess it's just the biased Batman fan in me talking that wants to see that grand sense of impending doom with their fight, even though it's not quite appropriate.

The trailers being dark and gloomy as hell do paint that DKR-ish picture though, so it's tough not to think along those lines sometimes.
 
If you are tired of seeing CGI buildings falling in a superhero movie, it's time to bow out because that ain't going away any time soon. Might as well stick to Daredevil and Jessica Jones.
Maybe i should. I dont care if it's done in a movie that includes superheroes like this, that have powers. But i guess i mean excessive use of CG and falling buildings.

I too wish Bats vs Supes was the climax. I've always felt that way. I just feel like anything following that is going to feel like a letdown dramatically.

The "learn to coexist, team up to take down the bigger bad" angle...I'm sorry, I know fans are gonna go nuts for that, but to me it just feels a bit on the corny side considering this film is being marketed as a clash of the titans.

But given what the film is mandated to accomplish in terms of world-building for future films, there's probably no way around it. I think that's part of what is somewhat eye-rolling about it though. It feels inevitable in a very obvious corporate kind of way.
Exactly. I mean, they MIGHT be able to get me pumped for Batman and Superman teaming up once they acknowledge what Lex is really doing. But i seriously doubt anything interesting will come of it once they rehash the Avengers plot, that they're already going to be doing for multiple Justice League movies anyway! Why do it it now?

Bats vs Supes as the climax won't have the necessary tension. We all know supes is gonna win if he tries. In DKR it worked because the focus was on Batman. How long he can hold out. It was a culminating elseworlds story, so there was an impending sense of doom to it. BvS is the exact opposite. It's a beginning for the DCEU, so you know Batman won't be in any real danger.
It wont have the necessary tension? Why not? If they can make Batman win in TDKReturns, then you can create tension of "what if Batman can take him down, at the very least". We all know that this leads to Justice League, so everybody is assuming that the Trinity will survive the end anyway right? So there's not much tension to begin with, even if you put Bizarro or Metallo in there. Maybe with Doomsday you can create a buzz of "what if he kills Supes like in the comics?". But some of us are hearing it's not him. So what is this talk about tension? We know the two leads aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so why not give it their all with a climactic Superman/Batman fight that Diana has to break up. Something that puts Bruce in the hospital indefinitely.

Im not saying my ideas are better than what they could give me in the end. Im waiting to be surprised. But there are ways to make a compelling fight at the end of the film, and still hype the formation of a Justice League, spin Gal Gadot off into her own movie, lock up Luthor (if need be), and possibly hint at Darkseid or Brainiac.

It sounds cheesy to think of Cavill's Superman all "evil" and brainwashed, going after the heroes. I know the outcome and it's dull and messier than just a Batman vs Superman showdown. Supes sees the light before he blasts Batman or another innocent person with his powers.

You can ask, "what's the difference between this and Bane/Bats fighting in the middle of Rises, only for a bigger battle to happen at the end that included armor, Catwoman, Talia, an army, aerial vehicles??". Well, that was a finale and the first fight was done with taste. I dont see Snyder holding back on buildings crashing in the first fight. It's probably going to be long too. I want that. But then we get a long final matchup with the Trinity vs a giant idiot villain who is the least bit interesting. OR Wondy & Bats take on a mind controlled idiotic Superman. It leads to MoS level repetition. If they can cut it down then it can work. But since when has Zack been able to say "less is more"?

Yes, it's the beginning of the DCEU, so you know Batman won't be in any danger that could be fatal. But that is the case whether it ends with Batman/Superman brawling or the Trinity take on Doomsy. There's no difference with that. Only a more crowded action sequence or seven.
 
Overall point: You can make a Batman vs Superman movie without turning it into "We're different as superheroes, but we have to team-up in order to save the planet/city". You can hold onto that so you don't use it too much. What do you guys think the Justice League movies will be about?
 
It wont have the necessary tension? Why not? If they can make Batman win in TDKReturns, then you can create tension of "what if Batman can take him down, at the very least". We all know that this leads to Justice League, so everybody is assuming that the Trinity will survive the end anyway right? So there's not much tension to begin with, even if you put Bizarro or Metallo in there. Maybe with Doomsday you can create a buzz of "what if he kills Supes like in the comics?". But some of us are hearing it's not him. So what is this talk about tension? We know the two leads aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so why not give it their all with a climactic Superman/Batman fight that Diana has to break up. Something that puts Bruce in the hospital indefinitely.

then have the tension be related to saving the civilians or something, not the superheroes themselves. If you end with Batman vs Supes in this movie, then 'saving the civilians' aspect that exists in every superhero movie (cept MOS, lol) won't happen. Unless you have Bats or Supes themselves endanger the civilians, then that would be an unmitigated disaster.

Im not saying my ideas are better than what they could give me in the end. Im waiting to be surprised. But there are ways to make a compelling fight at the end of the film, and still hype the formation of a Justice League, spin Gal Gadot off into her own movie, lock up Luthor (if need be), and possibly hint at Darkseid or Brainiac.

Why would they form at the end of the movie without the existence of a threat to unite them? If you mean the sudden appearance of a new threat and then it ends, wouldn't that be better off relegated to the opening of Justice League itself ala Avengers?

It sounds cheesy to think of Cavill's Superman all "evil" and brainwashed, going after the heroes. I know the outcome and it's dull and messier than just a Batman vs Superman showdown. Supes sees the light before he blasts Batman or another innocent person with his powers.

Seriously, they are going with evil, mind controlled Superman?
 
If you are tired of seeing CGI buildings falling in a superhero movie, it's time to bow out because that ain't going away any time soon. Might as well stick to Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

Well, both of those happen to be two of the best superhero-related things to come out in a while. At least up there among Marvel's best output.
 
They added that Dawn of Justice to the end of it because of what they added in the script. Not the other way around, im sure.

They can still end the film with a fight, and have 5 or 10 minutes left to unite the two leads together with Diana. Unite them together to form a league. There's your cliffhanger for Justice League. We don't need Trinity in action to accomplish that.

If the final product looks like they took their time to put all the pieces together for a Trinity vs "Villain", then fine. But i'd rather not see a dumb robotic villain in the final act. Im tired of seeing CG buildings falling and superheroes flying into each other for 20 minutes straight. This is what we're going to get, at least at the tail end of the Bats/Supes fight....and then we're going to get it again later in the film. It's a bit unnecessary.

You say it feels rushed yet you'd be happy with them uniting with 5 to 10 mins of the end? No sure I get that logic.

How's you know that title was added after? They could have always planned on introducing the concept of the JL before they even put pen to paper for all we know.

Seems to me you have made many assumptions.
 
You say it feels rushed yet you'd be happy with them uniting with 5 to 10 mins of the end? No sure I get that logic.

How's you know that title was added after? They could have always planned on introducing the concept of the JL before they even put pen to paper for all we know.

Seems to me you have made many assumptions.



You'll be hard pressed to find a whole lot of logic in shauner's weekly BvS rants in this TDKR thread. You're right, he makes a ton of assumptions about how everything in this film SHOULD be done (as if he knows what's truly best or right/wrong for this film), and he just openly stated that he's already come to the conclusion that he will be disappointed in the villain and finale, "no matter who it is". Tough to debate someone like that. :hehe:
 
You'll be hard pressed to find a whole lot of logic in shauner's weekly BvS rants in this TDKR thread. You're right, he makes a ton of assumptions about how everything in this film SHOULD be done (as if he knows what's best or right/wrong for this film), and he just openly stated that he's already come to the conclusion that he will be disappointed in the villain and finale, "no matter who it is". Tough to debate someone like that. :hehe:

Aye I really don't get that sort of thinking either. Just wait and see the movie and if you don't like it then you can see what lined up with your assumptions and criticise from there. Speculation is fine but assuming is never good.
 
I already said im going to wait and see the movie. But right now im not excited because i can't stand those three villains. If you dont like a villain in the comics, chances are you won't like them on screen. Especially in a more comic book accurate universe.

This whole place is built on assumptions for the most part. We all do it. Don't act high and mighty. This is what we do going into a movie. Speculation, assuming, it's what we do on this board. It's not a stretch that im assuming things when it comes to Snyder.

I never said Superman will be mind controlled, for sure. It's a rumor. And it's not too hard to believe at this point.

Oh Shape. I already said how i don't think my ideas are better, because i haven't seen the final "product". But it's what i would do as of now. I welcome surprises.

You can unite Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman with 10 minutes left in the movie and make it believable. You can have a real struggle in their fight. They dont need to hug each other or even shake hands at the end. They dont need to like each other so quickly. A Justice League can be created with heroes not really liking each other. Let that build throughout the Justice League films.

My overall point still stands, and nobody here will convince me otherwise until Zack Snyder can prove it himself. You certainly don't need a Trinity team-up to make this movie work.
 
That's visually. Im talking about the characters. Also, Snyder has almost nothing to do with Ayer's version of the Joker.
 
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