The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Blade Hoarder]

I thought top Gun Maverick felt like an event last year. I think the problem is the utter saturation of superhero media in particular. It’s hard to get excited by them.

 

[Gothamsknight]

There's new content every day that people are hyping. constant barrage of Marvel and Star Wars tv shows ontop of movies, plus multiple Batmans at once. I think there's certainly a lot of factors that hinder the novelty of it all unfortunately. It's lacking simplicity.

 

[BatLobster]

I thought top Gun Maverick felt like an event last year. I think the problem is the utter saturation of superhero media in particular. It’s hard to get excited by them.

Definitely. It was a great reminder that it's still possible to create that feeling.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Because this thread is pretty much the unofficial catch-all Dark Knight Trilogy thread, I'm going to post these, here.

For anyone on the fence on these editions, don't be.

Begins -

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The Dark Knight -

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The Dark Knight Rises -

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Screw it - here's Batman Returns, too (still waiting on my copy of '89) -

 

[BatLobster]

Just stunning! All the Homer drools. I'll probably be scouring Ebay soon...

 

[Gothamsknight]

The temptation to get those is strong!

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I somehow forgot the photo of Rises' goodies.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The temptation to get those is strong!

I get it, yeah. I resisted for awhile. But they're definitely worth having!

Just stunning! All the Homer drools. I'll probably be scouring Ebay soon...

I figured. I posted these to tempt a lot of you guys, here.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I've been starting to buy nice copies of my favourite films lately. For one, I make sure I've got nice copies of albums I really love, same with games or books.

So why not films?

Especially because it feels like everytime I feel like watching anything, I go to a streaming service and the film is never there. And I have to pay money to rent it or buy it digitally.

Might as well pay money once to have it for life.

I just love sets for a book, album or film that 'celebrate' the work with a lot of fun bonuses, nice cases/artwork and so on.

These really hit that mark.

 

[squeekness]

Those all looked awesome.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Have to say, even though it was only for DVD, this box set pack was quite nice.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I'm curious how you all reconcile these few things that bug me about the DKT.

I know they're not new issues to whine about, but if anyone has any input on if they do or don't share the same gripes, I'd be happy to hear it.

Gotham.

Nolan nailed Gotham in Begins. Grimy. Dirty. Gothic, at times. Trash everywhere. And no, not just the Narrows, because when Batman interrogates Flass, the area is dank and dirty. He says "It was in the Narrows", implying that's not where they're at plus, when we see Gordon taking out the monorail support, the area is absolutely filthy. Same for any street-shots of Gotham - it's like Blade Runner. Smoke in places.

The first film takes place more at night than the others, it's always rainy or has just rained.

The Dark Knight/Rises - the city lost almost all of this identity. The films feature more daytime scenes which isn't a problem per se. But the Narrows is gone, which isn't a sin given the time jump, but it's missed.

The city is way cleaner. Less trash, less wetness, dank, and dirty. There's just a lot less personality. The monorail is in the background, barely. Even Wayne Tower got a downgrade.

Now Batman operates in a brightly lit bunker, too - whereas in the first film, he was in a dark and wet cave.

How did this happen? It's so drastic.

That first film almost feels like a different franchise at times and it's an area where the sequels did not improve on.

Batman's Theatricality.

Another area Begins reigns supreme. He oozes cool in that first film. He's quiet. He sneaks around. He takes out thugs one by one and slips back into the shadows.

In Knight, he's just out in the open. No more cutting lights, no more hiding in shadows, no stealthy-ness.

Rises...well, he gets SOME of that back.

But damn, I missed his theatricality and quiet badassery.
EXAMPLE - "I can't beat two of your pawns?" - and he stays still, glares at the guy to his left before tackling him.

That's Batman.

 

[BatLobster]

@OnLeatherWings I think this is a really insightful video essay about the evolution of Nolan's Gotham. The whole essay is actually a pretty nice analysis of the trilogy, but specifically around the 14 minute mark is where he really hones in on his point about the 3 Gothams.



This isn't to try and dissuade anyone from preferring the Gotham of Begins or anything, for me I guess it's satisfying to try to get to an understanding of the artistic intent of it vs. just thinking about it like it was just some random changes with no rhyme or reason to it. Helps me better assess the films for what they are vs. for what they aren't. The bottom line is IMO is a lot of this stuff can be chalked up to how each of the films are engaging with genre. I think the whole trilogy is an exercise in telling one epic character journey through the lens of different genres. That said, I could also totally understand still just judging each of them simply on the merits of being a "Batman movie" first and foremost. Personally I just happen to think the structure of the trilogy is a great approach for a Batman series because it's a smart way to lean into the character's flexibility.

I was actually watching TDK last night...it struck me that Batman just showing up in full costume at Harvey's hospital bed is pretty odd...borderline goofy, like it's something that could totally happen in BTAS or the comics, but a scene like that would feel totally out of place in BB. And this hospital scene happens at one of the most emotionally heavy moments of the ENTIRE TRILOGY, and I never even really thought much about it until last night. And it struck me how cool that is. It's an interesting paradox because Begins is more "comic booky". But those scenes feel totally fine to me in TDK. Not just because of how the story dictates that Batman is established now, but how the entire style of the film evolved to create this new "reality" where Batman is more of a normalized concept to Gotham and is now at the center of a crime epic where he's working with the cops. Essentially, the films have their own identities and I think I just appreciate that, as much as I would've happily watched another 5 films set in the reality /style of Begins. I think the series is richer for it. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Brother Jack]

^ That video gives a really fascinating hermeneutic lens to view the trilogy as these three major phases of Bruce’s life. Begins the coming of age story (which all origin stories are) where the boy becomes the man, Knight depicting the complications and challenges of adulthood, and Rises as him in middle-age reckoning with the past to reach apotheosis. And the aesthetics of Gotham reflect Bruce in these ways thematically just like the color palettes and choice of villains and vehicles and gadgets do. These creative choices have purpose and they’re always tied to character.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I'll address that post later when I'm more awake - but I want to say I appreciate the time you took to write that post. I'll speak to it more thoroughly later.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I know we're drooling over the new 4K sets, but I will say - the UHD Dark Knight Trilogy, of which only like 268 sets were made, may be the best set.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Getting rid of the Narrows and using Chicago as Gotham instead of a bunch of sets gave TDK that massive scope and feel because they are shooting in a real city. I think Nolan traded off doing a more stylized Gotham in favor of bigger production values and a larger scope.

That has always been the biggest challenge with doing live action Batman and Superman movies. A more stylized Gotham or Metropolis means you have to stick mostly to a set or a sound stage which makes it look small and confined (Batman 89, Superman Returns), whereas using a real world city as your basis increases your production value in a big way (Superman The Movie using New York, TDK using Chicago).

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I guess I always assumed it was just more of an "Eh, let's go simpler. It's a pain to recreate the world of that first film" - as in laziness was more the culprit. Or that it just fell on the wayside of other priorities.

I wonder how much the filter effects things, too.

The blue of the second film doesn't make it feel as grime-y as the brown of the original.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I think Nolan was going for that "Heat" feel for the second one.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

It’s been a year since The Batman was released in theaters. I keep wondering, was Batman Begins as uneventful as the Batman has been? It sorta just came and went. I know Begins had a lukewarm box office performance, but there was more buzz because of the brilliant Joker tease.

Depends on who you talk to. On Reddit in particular I’m starting to see the same shift that happened to the Burton films when Nolan’s films were brand new. Some people are saying The Batman is easily the best Batman film that’s been made and the Nolan films never got the character right. This is part of a pattern that goes back to 1989. New Batman fans have a tendency to tear down the old in order to validate what’s new. I’ve even seen people hit The Dark Knight with the dreaded phrase of “It’s a good movie, but a bad Batman movie”.

As far as Begins is concerned, the main thing I remember was word of mouth. There was marketing of course but I don’t think that’s what got people in seats. Also, Begins was one of those films that benefited from home video.

 

[BatLobster]

^ That video gives a really fascinating hermeneutic lens to view the trilogy as these three major phases of Bruce’s life. Begins the coming of age story (which all origin stories are) where the boy becomes the man, Knight depicting the complications and challenges of adulthood, and Rises as him in middle-age reckoning with the past to reach apotheosis. And the aesthetics of Gotham reflect Bruce in these ways thematically just like the color palettes and choice of villains and vehicles and gadgets do. These creative choices have purpose and they’re always tied to character.

Very well said!

I guess I always assumed it was just more of an "Eh, let's go simpler. It's a pain to recreate the world of that first film" - as in laziness was more the culprit. Or that it just fell on the wayside of other priorities.

I wonder how much the filter effects things, too.

The blue of the second film doesn't make it feel as grime-y as the brown of the original.

I could be misinformed about this, but I could've sworn at the time, I heard that the Begins sets in the Cardington hanger were left standing throughout the trilogy just in case they wanted to use them again. I'm honestly not sure if it's true, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't be practical to take them down and rebuild again. Though Rises had some new sets like Bane's lair and the pit, so I'm not exactly sure.

Either way though, I think it's definitely a creative choice. As much as I love the look of the Narrows in Begins, I do feel that the third act feels a bit more claustrophobic compared to the final acts of TDK and Rises and I don't enjoy it as much for that reason. I think Nolan wanted to pull the camera back and get more of the city's scope on screen in the sequels, especially with all the IMAX filming. I'm not sure artificial sets are as conducive for IMAX, as impressive as the set was.

As far as the blue, "clean" look in TDK, I think that's also very intentional. Nathan Crowley has talked about how all the design choices in that film are kind of based around creating a veneer of "order" that The Joker contrasts against. Lots of clean geometry and harsh lighting, like in the Bat-bunker, the interrogation room, etc. There's def a lot of thought that goes into those decisions and it's all influenced by the story.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Getting rid of the Narrows and using Chicago as Gotham instead of a bunch of sets gave TDK that massive scope and feel because they are shooting in a real city. I think Nolan traded off doing a more stylized Gotham in favor of bigger production values and a larger scope.

That has always been the biggest challenge with doing live action Batman and Superman movies. A more stylized Gotham or Metropolis means you have to stick mostly to a set or a sound stage which makes it look small and confined (Batman 89, Superman Returns), whereas using a real world city as your basis increases your production value in a big way (Superman The Movie using New York, TDK using Chicago).

I'm glad someone else finally sees why thee change to chicago (as well as LA and Pitttsburgh) was a good thing. I think being confined to small areas just doesn't feel as good to me when it comes to Batman stories. Not only is it nice to see cities that resemble our own, but I also think it just makes Batman feel so large as well. Take this shot for example. It just feels so real and alive in every sense.

Nolan was definitely going for what Donner did with Superman and I think it worked fantastically.