The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

Somebody actually pitched a sequel to TDK with Lex Luthor?
 
That's almost interesting lol.

I guess Superman really did save Bats from that bomb. Teeee-heeeee.
 
So with this bonkers election cycle, I can't help but reflect on TDKR a bit.

The fact that Trump has duped so many people into thinking that he actually gives a hoot about the working class and cares about bringing jobs here (despite making many of his products overseas), and seeing how readily people eat it up suddenly makes it way more believable to me that a guy wearing a mask talking in a funny voice could sway people his way and turn people against the government with little evidence despite having just blown up a stadium. Even if it's not strictly speaking "realistic", what that represents symbolically feels all the more chillingly relevant now.

Co-opting legitimate public distrust in the system and channeling that towards more destructive aims is exactly what the right and the alt-right have been doing in this election cycle. People are all too willing to listen to someone on a platform who is saying things that are roughly what they want to hear and turn a blind eye to all the rest, while others with more vile intentions will try to blend in with that larger crowd and push the movement in uglier directions.

Not to get all political in here lol, but when Trump talks of a rigged election my mind can't help but flash to the siege of Gotham montage in Rises. Trump himself is definitely a comic book villain come to life, but probably some type of cross between The Penguin and (a much dopier) Lex Luthor. But the most extreme fringes of his base very much bring to mind the whole angle of Bane's "revolution" and the fact that Bane didn't give a crap about "the people" despite positioning himself as their savior.
 
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The difference is that he is a vaguely ethnic, foreign guy. I think the voter base that is duped by the likes of Trump would shun Bane for that alone.
 
Bane is actually more convincing. Trump is an obvious snake oil salesman if you look beyond the talking points. Bane, despite being a mass murderer, showed no signs of having ulterior motives. Really, other than Talia and the nuke being a time bomb, there wasn't much subterfuge at all. The situation was just made to appear a particular way to certain disenfranchised subsets of the city and to the outside world, to whom Gotham's destruction would appear to have been caused by the people. The "ordinary citizen" and all that.
 
Tacit Ronin said:
The difference is that he is a vaguely ethnic, foreign guy. I think the voter base that is duped by the likes of Trump would shun Bane for that alone.
Click to expand...

Eh, TDKR Bane is white, whereas Trump is orange. :oldrazz:

Anyway, my point wasn't that something like that can or would literally happen just like that, but it's hard for me not to see a parallel there. You could obviously draw other historical parallels there too, but it just seems like the most recent and fitting example. Especially because Trump himself is such a cartoon character and obvious conman...I agree with Brother Jack, Bane probably is more convincing.
 
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Yeah. But I think the 'Murican' crowd will hear his Eastern European-Ish accent and immediately go "commie/socialist!"
 
BatLobsterRises said:
Not to get all political in here lol, but when Trump talks of a rigged election my mind can't help but flash to the siege of Gotham montage in Rises. Trump himself is definitely a comic book villain come to life, but probably some type of cross between The Penguin and (a much dopier) Lex Luthor. But the most extreme fringes of his base very much bring to mind the whole angle of Bane's "revolution" and the fact that Bane didn't give a crap about "the people" despite positioning himself as their savior.
Click to expand...

Hey, now, don’t tarnish the Penguin’s reputation with such a comparison. At least Penguin is competent enough to get away with what he does, while Trump is heavily scrutinized. :oldrazz:
 
Actually, Trump is more Max Shreck than Penguin. If you combined their roles from Batman Returns and it was Shreck running for office you'd basically have Trump. Down to the dopey son who talks with a laughable impersonation of his pops.
 
Chip Chipperson said:
One thing that bothers me about TDKR and please correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't watched it since I saw it in theaters

The manor was donated to become a home for orphans, yes? So John Blake is basically doing batman stuff under an orphanage? That just doesn't sit right with me. Idk.
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I looked at it in a sort of Batman Inc. way where these orphans are gonna be one big Bat Family.
 
The latest DCEU brain fart post I've read; Leto's Joker could beat up Bale's Batman because Letoker had muscles.
 
This guy would rip off Leto Joker's arms and beat him to death with them

Christian-Bale-as-Bruce-Wayne-Batman.jpg
 
They also said Bale looked like a bad fighter, as if Letoker showed any impressive fighting ability.
 
Let's not get down to the petty, adolescent level of DCEU nutbags.
 
The Joker said:
The latest DCEU brain fart post I've read; Leto's Joker could beat up Bale's Batman because Letoker had muscles.
Click to expand...
[YT]ztVMib1T4T4[/YT]

Letoker is the ****ing worst.
 
https://***********/hitRECordJoe/status/806852321355370500

I remember when we first saw that pic. Good times!
 
Don't know if this has ever been posted here but here's a well argued basis for the Nolan Batman actually being more powerful than the DCEU Batman:

Credit to Lubub55.


Strength:
One of the biggest reasons people seem to think that DCEU Batman is so much better than Nolan Batman is because of his superior strength. Although DCEU Batman is stronger, it isn't by nearly as much as most people think and it isn't a big enough factor to be a game changer.
DCEU Batman's best strength feats are probably punching someone through the floor and throwing a man into a wall so hard it breaks. Whilst past his prime (the leg brace only fixed the cartilage in his legs. It didn't return him to his former strength.) Bruce was able to shatter brick with a casual kick which surprised even him. Bruce is so strong that a single one of his punches is enough to snap a metal chain. Whilst Bruce is pinned to the floor and unable to utilize his legs or lower-back strength he manages to push a wooden beam off of him after just being KO'ed by a large amount of smoke. This article states that smaller wooden beams weigh hundreds of pounds. During his fight with Bane at a certain part the two went purely into a physical struggle and Batman was actually able to match him and hold his own in that regard. Bane can easily kill people by slamming their heads on tables and with single punches. As well as this Bane can easily crush a man's throat with pure gripping strength of only a single hand and can even snap necks. He can also casually lift Batman completely off the ground by the neck with only a single hand and can walk around with him. Onto Bane's most impressive strength feat, he casually breaks into a thick concrete pillar with his punches. The guy is a legitimate superhuman and Batman was able to match strength with him whilst past his prime. Batman has strength-enhancing gauntlets which give him enough gripping strength to completely bend a rifle barrel downwards. Not only is Nolan Batman able to consistently one/two-shot fodder like DCEU Batman, he can also one-shot a security guard with only a backhand whilst simultaneously dragging someone across the ground and without slowing down. After just having had a fight, Bruce carries Ra’s al Ghul on his back, gets blown out a building by an explosion and grabs Ra’s al Ghul before he falls off a cliff. Bruce himself is not properly leveraged, as his shoulder is on a slant and was just pulled by the force of the sudden stop by the hook. He is only supporting himself and Ra’s with a single arm. Even though he is not properly leveraged himself Bruce is strong enough to not only pull himself up with one arm whilst not properly leveraged, but also lift Ra’s al Ghul up with him with a single arm. At the time this film was made Liam Neeson weighed 225lbs and Bruce was confirmed by viral marketing to weigh about 210lbs. Both of them are also in armour.
In conclusion, DCEU Batman is probably stronger than Nolan Batman but the difference is nowhere near as big as people think and Nolan Batman is definitely in the same league in that regard. He has the strength necessary to at least hold his own in a struggle and make other factors where he holds the advantages more relevant to this fight than raw strength.

Speed:
Here is Nolan Batman's most underrated category. He is much quicker than most people give him credit for, and is also faster than DCEU Batman. DCEU Batman's best speed feat is aim dodging a Police Officer from close range who is so startled that he shoots at his partner accidentally. Nolan Batman has dodged gunfire from three different shooters at once who have gotten the drop on him who at at a distance where they can easily keep eyes on him when he moves, and he still gets out the way and completely disappears. As well as this he has evaded gunfire whilst running down a corridor without much room to maneuver. Now although this was aided by darkness it is still impressive since the shooter didn't have many places to target. In this video Christopher Nolan confirms that Batman is blindingly quick even in Batman Begins, and he then gets an armour upgrade which makes him even faster in The Dark Knight. This is even shown by the camera angles where Batman appears FTE here and here. After being surprised by an attack from behind, Bruce Wayne is fast enough to turn around and stomp a League of Shadows assassin in the time it takes Ra's al Ghul to draw his sword.
Overall speed is an advantage which goes to Nolan Batman. In fact the speed difference between the two is probably about as large as the strength one, if not bigger.

Durability:
Yes, the DCEU batsuit is completely bullet-proof and the Nolan batsuit is not. So what? That is completely irrelevant since neither fighter here uses guns. Blunt force durability is what actually matters when almost all the damage here will be dealt with punches which is where Nolan Batman takes the lead. I've seen way too many people assume that because it's bullet-proof the DCEU batsuit must be more durable to blunt force than the Nolan batsuit even though it doesn't have the feats to back it up.
I'm going to post the GIF of Bane punching through concrete again, just to show Batman tanking six concrete punches and not being affected. He tanks loads more as well. Here is the first and second fight that Batman has with Bane. In the first fight Batman is hit with twenty-eight concrete-busting punches, many of which were to the head, and still managed to carry on fighting and was only incapacitated when his back was broken. Bear in mind at this point Batman was not motivated and he wasn't fully back in the game yet. In the second fight we see Batman tank twenty-three punches and he isn't even impacted by them. He immediately interrogates Bane whilst showing no signs of pain. it should also be noted that from 0:37 - 1:46, over a minute and about half of the fight, we see other people and miss the Batman vs Bane fight. Bane landed twenty-three punches from what we saw when Batman had the upper-hand, and when the camera returns to the fight Bane has the upper-hand which means that Batman presumably took even more punches. After getting sprayed by Scarecrow's fear toxin and set on fire, Batman jumps out of a fourth-story window unassisted by his cape/glider straight onto a car hard enough to damage it and he then gets up and gets away from the crowd. After being knocked down and unable top fight back the Joker hits an undefended Batman dozens of times with a steel rod and then Bruce simply kicks him off and goes back to fighting the dogs. He is then trapped and beaten again and remains unfazed the whole time. Overall Nolan Batman's blunt force durability is much greater than that of DCEU Batman's, but that's not all. His pain tolerance/willpower is also better. As I showed earlier Batman managed to resist the scare effect of Scarecrow's fear toxin which instantly turned countless thugs, and even the strong-willed crime boss Carmine Falcone, insane on impact. It even turned the entirety of Gotham insane. Even though a gunshot from Harvey Dent penetrated Bruce's armour, Bruce's pain tolerance was so good that he quickly recovered from the shot, rescued Commissioner Gordon's son and then outran the Police. After getting stabbed between the plates of his armour Batman gets up and in minutes disposes of the bomb in Gotham. As for stamina, before his training after just climbing a mountain Bruce can "barely stand" and he is still capable of fighting Ra's al Ghul. He is defeated because he is at a massive disadvantage in terms of skill at that point, but he had the stamina to actually fight.
Although DCEU Batman's suit can tank gunfire, Nolan Batman's suit has much better relevant protection and he himself has greater willpower and pain tolerance than DCEU Batman.

Skill:
Another area where I feel Nolan Batman takes a large lead. The obvious thing that's going to be brought up here to defend DCEU Batman is the warehouse fight scene, but that is nowhere near as impressive as most people seem to make out and Nolan Batman has shown much better skill than DCEU Batman does in that fight.
I'm going to post the warehouse fight now. It is nowhere near as impressive as most people seem to think. For a start Batman disabled the guns of the thugs in there and was also tagged at 1:58, 2:04, 2:22, 2:30, 2:37, and some other times. If it wasn't for his armour he'd be dead. In the warehouse he takes down a total of nineteen thugs not including KGBeast. While this may seem very impressive at first you should bear in mind that he isn't fighting them all at once and is actually isolating them and taking on small groups. The highest amount of thugs he actually fights at once is four and that starts at 2:02. He is given genuine difficulty by them and even gets knocked down and stabbed during the fight when he was forced to take on four thugs at once when the fight was on even ground, two of which had knives. Batman took down that same number but of League of Shadows assassins wielding swords in only a fraction of the time DCEU Batman took and with only a fraction of the difficulty. This should give you some idea of what League of Shadows training is like. As well as this League fodder are capable of easily snapping necks. Even before he was trained Bruce could take on six criminals at once without equipment. This feat is often overlooked. With the help of Catwoman (an inferior fighter to Batman) in The Dark Knight Rises Batman fights and beats a large group of opponents who were specifically stated to be not just street thugs but trained killers. He has also stomped six armed mercenaries at once. Overall the feats I've just shown already put Nolan Batman above DCEU Batman in terms of skill, but that isn't his best. This is. We see that Batman jumps into the middle of a crowd of seventeen (though some may be part of the camera crew) and stomps them all in about twenty seconds. He isn't picking them off or taking on small groups like what DCEU Batman did in the warehouse scene, nor is he taking on some of them on even ground. He literally jumps right into the middle of the group and gets completely surrounded from all sides and is still able to stomp them with no difficulty in around twenty seconds. Some of them even have weapons. As for skill against established opponents, Nolan Batman has defeated Bane. Beating someone as strong as Bane with none of his other attributes would already be impressive, but Bane is more than just strength. Because of his mask he is unable to feel pain and as Alfred says he is fast and skilled as well as strong. Although Bane could one-shot with his monstrous strength, here he takes down security guards with only his skill. As well as this, during his fights with Batman he regularly blocks, dodges and catches his punches. In Batman Begins Bruce was "blindingly quick" and although his physicals decreased with age, he got lighter armour to balance it out. This means that Bane is stronger than Batman, incredibly skilled and blindingly quick and yet in the end Batman was still able to beat him when past his prime.
Nolan Batman is a great deal more skilled than DCEU Batman and has the fodder feats and feats against established opponents to prove it.

Stealth:
Nolan Batman completely outclasses DCEU Batman in terms of sneaking ability. I am not going to show him sneaking up on unaware opponents or disappearing during a conversation because they are irrelevant in a fight. Instead I am going to show how Nolan Batman actively uses stealth in combat.
First there is the scene at the docks from Batman Begins. In it Batman doesn't just stealth everyone there and take them out undetected like he is clearly capable of, he uses diversionary tactics to mislead opponents and lure them into traps, only being seen when he wants to be. He creates sound distractions and allows opponents to catch glimpses of him, navigating the docks and cutting opponents off when he realistically should have no way to get to them. Here he does the same thing again, but with much less cover in an open area. He seems to be in certain places and then quickly ends up behind the thugs without anyone else noticing. He takes out an opponent wit a grapple and then ends up on the other side of the room undetected. Here an effect is used to make it look like he outright vanishes. His predatory tactics are above DCEU Batman's pay grade. He hasn't just picked opponents off from stealth either. When three shooters get the drop on him Batman avoids their gunfire and with almost no cover he completely vanishes from view right in front of them in a moderately-well lit room and then reengages from stealth. There is also this scene. Batman is forced to engage four League assassins so he flips one over the balcony and attacks from a different angle. League ninjas are trained to be pretty much invisibly and a load of them can all be present in a room with Bruce Wayne during his training undetected. As Ra's al Ghul puts it they are trained to be "invisible". League assassins were also able to infiltrate every level of Gotham's infrastructure and were even able to hide in Wayne manor without Bruce noticing. They are all stealth experts, and Nolan Batman can ghost them even when they start in sight. In a training session, Bruce uses his skills of deception to trick Ra's al Ghul. Moreover, Batman has been able to deceive multiple S.W.A.T. teams and take them out undetected whilst simultaneously saving hostages. This video should give you a good idea of what S.W.A.T. training is like and how they effectively clear rooms, covering every corner of it and trusting their team members with their life.
Nolan Batman is much better at staying undetected, using diversionary tactics and evading sight in combat than DCEU Batman and has also outstealthed stealth experts. There is no contest here. Even though they start in-sight Nolan Batman can disappear and stay undetected, using his superior sneaking skills to his advantage. As well as this he also carries flash bombs even though we won't need them here.

Conclusion:
DCEU Batman is most likely stronger, but Nolan Batman is actually very close in that regard and has matched strength with Bane. His raw strength advantage isn't enough to overcome the multitude of advantages Nolan Batman has in this fight considering he has already fought and beaten an opponent stronger than him who is also durable, fast and skilled. Nolan Batman's speed is good enough to pretty much cancel out the strength difference and his skill advantage will put things in his favour. To top this off, Nolan Batman is much more durable than DCEU Batman so even though DCEU Bats hits harder Nolan Batman's punches will hurt him more than the other way round.
Melee:
DCEU Batman is slightly stronger, but Nolan Batman is strong enough to compete and is also faster and a good deal more skilled, meaning it will be hard for DCEU Batman to land shots on Nolan Batman whilst Nolan Batman can regularly tag DCEU Batman. DCEU Batman landing punches every now and then won't be enough to win him the fight unless you can prove that he hits a good deal harder than an enraged Joker swinging a steel rod dozens of time and probably 30+ punches from the concrete buster Bane, neither of which even hurt Bruce. If he does somehow manage to land as many shots as Bane and Joker did it won't matter because even if you argue that DCEU Batman hits harder than Bane which I'd disagree with, the difference between the two wouldn't be enough to make Nolan Batman go from being pretty much unharmed to completely incapacitated. DCEU Batman simply doesn't have the blunt force durability to suggest he can tank anywhere near that many punches from Nolan Batman who can one-shot people with backhands, kick trough bricks and punch through steel chains. Even if the two fighters just stood there and started trading blows DCEU Batman would drop first because although he probably hits harder he is nowhere near as durable as Nolan Batman. Now factor in Nolan Batman's decent speed advantage and large skill advantage which means that Nolan Batman will be landing many more hits on DCEU Batman than vice-versa and as a result will drop him quicker.

Stealth/Tactics:
Nolan Batman is ridiculously better at stealth than DCEU Batman and has actually used it in combat before to his advantage and has even outright vanished while in sight of opponents. He also uses distractions because of his League training and his ability to mislead will come in handy here. In terms of gadgets practically everything DCEU Batman carries is completely irrelevant, whilst although most of Nolan Batman's equipment won't be much of a factor it can be used which gives him an edge. Pure melee or a battle of stealth and tactics, it doesn't matter. Nolan Batman is an overall better fighter than DCEU Batman when we compare objective feats. Yes, Batman v Superman's fight scenes are more entertaining than those in The Dark Knight trilogy but that is irrelevant. To judge a fight we should take an objective look at the feats of both fighters as well as their proven capabilities and limitations. If we want to get into the whole choreography thing though, Christopher Nolan has specifically stated that the fight scenes are choreographed like that because it is much more realistic, brutal and effective rather than flashy.
Click to expand...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/5krge6/nolan_batman_destroys_dceu_batman/
 
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