The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[shauner111]

It’s soooo good.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

The way CIA says "Bane...." will always never not be amazing to me, haha. It's so deliciously cheese but I love how intrigued he is. Just one simple utterance of his name and you get the impression that Bane is like some sort of ghost that intelligence agencies have been after for years to no avail.

the whole sequence is a cheese fest. Especially the redub. Hardy definitely hammed it up much more compared to the original.

“YESH!!!!! Da Fire Rises”.

 

[Brother Jack]

The way CIA says "Bane...." will always never not be amazing to me, haha. It's so deliciously cheese but I love how intrigued he is. Just one simple utterance of his name and you get the impression that Bane is like some sort of ghost that intelligence agencies have been after for years to no avail.

"The masked man". There's definitely an implication that Bane has a legend surrounding him. Because of course he does. The theme of legends and the veracity of them is everywhere in the movie.

 

[Shikamaru]

Greetings everyone!! It's been a while. Hope you're all jolly and got through the lockdown safe and sound!

While reading some Spider-Man reviews in preparation for NWH, I came across an interesting point on Nolan. This article argues that Batman Begins was the first serialized superhero film and not the MCU films.

NEW SERIALIZATION

A continuity reboot in a long serial franchise is somewhat of a new thing. Remakes of course are old. A remake is technically a reboot but usually, remakes are solos. John Carpenter’s The Thing remade a classic horror film as a solo, whereas J. J. Abrams Star Trek movies is a reboot (but also in continuity with the series in a fashion) with a new serialized continuity. The 2000s was the decade of the reboot, dominated by Nolan’s Batman Begins (2005, one year after Spider-Man 2).

When Batman Begins made it’s debut, it was 8 years after Batman and Robin (1997) and 16 years after Burton’s Batman (1989) created the continuity of that version. Nolan had time and distance, and cultural amnesia, to introduce Batman anew, since children young enough to see and remember movies were born after Batman and Robin. For them the Burton film with Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson might as well be as ancient as the Adam West Batman TV show was to audiences in 1989. In addition to popularizing the franchise reboot, Nolan introduced a new playbook for superhero serialization. Batman Begins was intentionally a low-stakes film (relatively speaking) that avoided pitting the hero against his most outlandish threats. The threats featured tended to be bereft of gimmicks (Ra’s Al Ghul isn’t an immortal mastermind who dips in the fountain of youth, he’s merely the latest head of a centuries old secret society). Nolan made the first film with full knowledge and expectation of a sequel. He tossed that gauntlet at the end of the first film with the final scene focused on a tease of a familiar playing card. The last scene of Batman Begins exists solely to make a non-diegetic reference that would only make sense to an audience outside the film who knows who the Joker is.

Nolan provided a model for what I’d like to call “new serialization”. It’s not that sequel teases are a new thing. Spider-Man 2 ended with a tease that Harry Osborn might become a Goblin but that is entirely diegetic to the film, in keeping with the rules of the fiction of that world where it was established that Norman was the first Goblin, that his son is struggling with his father’s legacy; so what we saw there is grounded in the setup of the films whereas the Joker playing card at the end of BB wasn’t. It would have been different Spider-Man 2 ended with a tease for Flint Marko or the Venom Symbiote who ultimately appeared in Spider-Man 3. The latter hypothesis is what Nolan put into effect. Now a superhero franchise film wasn’t a pure standalone, it now existed as something satisfying but also as a bridge to setup and preemptively promote its direct sequel. It’s only a short leap from the Joker playing card to the post-credits scene in Iron Man (2008) where suddenly Samuel L. Jackson shows up as Nick Fury announcing the “Avengers Initiative”.

Live Action Spider-Man Retrospective Review: THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (2012)

He expands on his point in his review of ASM-2:

Movie sequels are a management of expectations. When Spider-Man 2 came out it had to live up to the success and fame and popularity of the first film and double down on the things in SM1 (romance, action, drama) that seemed to work. Things changed when Nolan ended Batman Begins with a card for The Joker. He wasn’t setting up expectations for a sequel to merely live up to the first film, but to essentially deliver a very specific film. A sequel with The Joker, extra-diegetically known as Batman’s greatest enemy, last seen in a live-action feature way back in in 1989, nearly 20 years before the release of The Dark Knight. Nolan took a big gamble. Had The Dark Knight been a clunker, it might have retroactively diminished Batman Begins.

That’s the pitfalls of hyper-serialized franchises over the Burton and Raimi model of standalone single films. Film-makers limit themselves from making sequels that assess the strengths/weaknesses and instead locks down the story they promised to deliver without bothering to think if plans had changed by that point.

Live Action Spider-Man Retrospective Review: THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 (2014)

Calling the Nolan films "serialized" sounds absurd in 2021 when you look at how far the MCU has taken serialization, but come to think of it... There was literally no other superhero franchise as serialized as Nolan's if we turn back the clock to 2005-2008. The Joker card at the end of Begins introduced the idea that a superhero sequel can always be better and (more importantly) different from the first film. Once you establish that idea in people's heads, something like the MCU isn't as much of a stretch anymore.

The reviews don't mention this, but I'll add that TDK is the first superhero sequel to not take place too long after its respective first film. All prior sequels were set over a year after their respective first film's events. That short time gap was probably also a factor (at least subconsciously) in convincing Hollywood that you can tell a lot of stories with a live-action version of a character within a short amount of time.

It's very interesting way of looking at Nolan's legacy, because Nolan's style is often sourced as being the opposite of the MCU's and inspiring only self-contained films like Logan. This article however suggests that Nolan was just as responsible for how serialized superhero films have become as he is for the self-contained three-act films.

 

[Shikamaru]

Greetings everyone!! It's been a while. Hope you're all jolly and got through the lockdown safe and sound!

While reading some Spider-Man reviews in preparation for NWH, I came across an interesting point on Nolan. This article argues that Batman Begins was the first serialized superhero film and not the MCU films.

NEW SERIALIZATION

A continuity reboot in a long serial franchise is somewhat of a new thing. Remakes of course are old. A remake is technically a reboot but usually, remakes are solos. John Carpenter’s The Thing remade a classic horror film as a solo, whereas J. J. Abrams Star Trek movies is a reboot (but also in continuity with the series in a fashion) with a new serialized continuity. The 2000s was the decade of the reboot, dominated by Nolan’s Batman Begins (2005, one year after Spider-Man 2).

When Batman Begins made it’s debut, it was 8 years after Batman and Robin (1997) and 16 years after Burton’s Batman (1989) created the continuity of that version. Nolan had time and distance, and cultural amnesia, to introduce Batman anew, since children young enough to see and remember movies were born after Batman and Robin. For them the Burton film with Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson might as well be as ancient as the Adam West Batman TV show was to audiences in 1989. In addition to popularizing the franchise reboot, Nolan introduced a new playbook for superhero serialization. Batman Begins was intentionally a low-stakes film (relatively speaking) that avoided pitting the hero against his most outlandish threats. The threats featured tended to be bereft of gimmicks (Ra’s Al Ghul isn’t an immortal mastermind who dips in the fountain of youth, he’s merely the latest head of a centuries old secret society). Nolan made the first film with full knowledge and expectation of a sequel. He tossed that gauntlet at the end of the first film with the final scene focused on a tease of a familiar playing card. The last scene of Batman Begins exists solely to make a non-diegetic reference that would only make sense to an audience outside the film who knows who the Joker is.

Nolan provided a model for what I’d like to call “new serialization”. It’s not that sequel teases are a new thing. Spider-Man 2 ended with a tease that Harry Osborn might become a Goblin but that is entirely diegetic to the film, in keeping with the rules of the fiction of that world where it was established that Norman was the first Goblin, that his son is struggling with his father’s legacy; so what we saw there is grounded in the setup of the films whereas the Joker playing card at the end of BB wasn’t. It would have been different Spider-Man 2 ended with a tease for Flint Marko or the Venom Symbiote who ultimately appeared in Spider-Man 3. The latter hypothesis is what Nolan put into effect. Now a superhero franchise film wasn’t a pure standalone, it now existed as something satisfying but also as a bridge to setup and preemptively promote its direct sequel. It’s only a short leap from the Joker playing card to the post-credits scene in Iron Man (2008) where suddenly Samuel L. Jackson shows up as Nick Fury announcing the “Avengers Initiative”.

Live Action Spider-Man Retrospective Review: THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (2012)

He expands on his point in his review of ASM-2:

Movie sequels are a management of expectations. When Spider-Man 2 came out it had to live up to the success and fame and popularity of the first film and double down on the things in SM1 (romance, action, drama) that seemed to work. Things changed when Nolan ended Batman Begins with a card for The Joker. He wasn’t setting up expectations for a sequel to merely live up to the first film, but to essentially deliver a very specific film. A sequel with The Joker, extra-diegetically known as Batman’s greatest enemy, last seen in a live-action feature way back in in 1989, nearly 20 years before the release of The Dark Knight. Nolan took a big gamble. Had The Dark Knight been a clunker, it might have retroactively diminished Batman Begins.

That’s the pitfalls of hyper-serialized franchises over the Burton and Raimi model of standalone single films. Film-makers limit themselves from making sequels that assess the strengths/weaknesses and instead locks down the story they promised to deliver without bothering to think if plans had changed by that point.

Live Action Spider-Man Retrospective Review: THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 (2014)

Calling the Nolan films "serialized" sounds absurd in 2021 when you look at how far the MCU has taken serialization, but come to think of it... There was literally no other superhero franchise as serialized as Nolan's if we turn back the clock to 2005-2008. The Joker card at the end of Begins introduced the idea that a superhero sequel can always be better and (more importantly) different from the first film. Once you establish that idea in people's heads, something like the MCU isn't as much of a stretch anymore.

The reviews don't mention this, but I'll add that TDK is the first superhero sequel to not take place too long after its respective first film. All prior sequels were set over a year after their respective first film's events. That short time gap was probably also a factor (at least subconsciously) in convincing Hollywood that you can tell a lot of stories with a live-action version of a character within a short amount of time.

It's actually a very interesting way of looking at Nolan's legacy, because Nolan's style is often sourced as being the opposite of the MCU's and as having inspired only self-contained films like Logan. This perspective however suggests that Nolan was just as responsible for how serialized superhero films have become as he is for the self-contained three-act films.

 

[Kargo Warrior]

I disagree both with the premise that Nolan’s films were serialized and even more so that he was the first to do it.

The Joker card was nothing but a nod to the fans, Nolan himself has stated a dozen times that there was no conscious effort to set up a sequel. It was simply an exciting way to end the film. The Dark Knight by itself, couldn’t be more self-contained. It leaves absolutely no loose threads, Nolan’s story could have ended right then and there. Nolan said that had he known he would have made a third film, he would have left Harvey alive but they went all-in for The Dark Knight and held nothing back.

On the other hand, Spider-Man 1 ended with Harry vowing revenge against Spidey, setting up the second film and Spider-Man 2 ended with the Harry/Goblin lair cliffhanger, setting up the third film, and those films came out in 2002 and 2004.

 

[BobJM]

X-Men (2000) also leads directly into X2 (2003) with Professor X mentioning Alkali Lake to Logan and him subsequently stealing Scott’s motorcycle. X2 also has a tease for Phoenix at the end to lead directly into X-Men: The Last Stand (2006). I don’t think any of these movies are set that far about from each other. X-Men and X2 take place over a couple weeks.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I disagree both with the premise that Nolan’s films were serialized and even more so that he was the first to do it.

The Joker card was nothing but a nod to the fans, Nolan himself has stated a dozen times that there was no conscious effort to set up a sequel. It was simply an exciting way to end the film. The Dark Knight by itself, couldn’t be more self-contained. It leaves absolutely no loose threads, Nolan’s story could have ended right then and there. Nolan said that had he known he would have made a third film, he would have left Harvey alive but they went all-in for The Dark Knight and held nothing back.

On the other hand, Spider-Man 1 ended with Harry vowing revenge against Spidey, setting up the second film and Spider-Man 2 ended with the Harry/Goblin lair cliffhanger, setting up the third film, and those films came out in 2002 and 2004.

I was about to say something similar until I saw your post haha. I strictly remember Nolan saying something along the lines of how he made each film as if it was the last Batman film he'd make. That's also an approach that I think worked incredibly well for the trilogy as a whole because each movie stands out as being a great film you can sit down and watch without being lost. I think it also helped that he did movies in between.

 

[The Batman]

Superman the Movie literally starts by setting up the villain for Superman 2. The two movies were even being filmed at the same time. This genre as we know it has had serialization built into it from the beginning.

Also, both Superman 2 and Batman Returns are different films from their respective predecessors.

 

[Ryan]

Greetings everyone!! It's been a while. Hope you're all jolly and got through the lockdown safe and sound!

While reading some Spider-Man reviews in preparation for NWH, I came across an interesting point on Nolan. This article argues that Batman Begins was the first serialized superhero film and not the MCU films.



He expands on his point in his review of ASM-2:



Calling the Nolan films "serialized" sounds absurd in 2021 when you look at how far the MCU has taken serialization, but come to think of it... There was literally no other superhero franchise as serialized as Nolan's if we turn back the clock to 2005-2008. The Joker card at the end of Begins introduced the idea that a superhero sequel can always be better and (more importantly) different from the first film. Once you establish that idea in people's heads, something like the MCU isn't as much of a stretch anymore.

The reviews don't mention this, but I'll add that TDK is the first superhero sequel to not take place too long after its respective first film. All prior sequels were set over a year after their respective first film's events. That short time gap was probably also a factor (at least subconsciously) in convincing Hollywood that you can tell a lot of stories with a live-action version of a character within a short amount of time.

It's actually a very interesting way of looking at Nolan's legacy, because Nolan's style is often sourced as being the opposite of the MCU's and as having inspired only self-contained films like Logan. This perspective however suggests that Nolan was just as responsible for how serialized superhero films have become as he is for the self-contained three-act films.

Wow, haven't been here in ages. Shikamaru! Great to see you still around!

 

[Gothamsknight]

Was rewatching the theatrical trailers for both The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises the other day after we got the new glorious trailer for The Batman and I have to say how awesome it is that this character has had such spectacular trailers over the course of different eras of interpretation. Nobody can convince me otherwise that Batman has had the most successful amount of reinventions in film of any comic book character.

 

[BatLobster]

Was rewatching the theatrical trailers for both The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises the other day after we got the new glorious trailer for The Batman and I have to say how awesome it is that this character has had such spectacular trailers over the course of different eras of interpretation. Nobody can convince me otherwise that Batman has had the most successful amount of reinventions in film of any comic book character.

It's not even close! And I'm not saying that to crap on other superheroes or anything, I wish we had more great Superman films for example. But Batman has always attracted really strong creative visions, it's glaringly apparant.

 

[Gothamsknight]

It's not even close! And I'm not saying that to crap on other superheroes or anything, I wish we had more great Superman films for example. But Batman has always attracted really strong creative visions, it's glaringly apparant.

Absolutely. And even the projects that didn't come to fruition had some insane directors attached. Darren Aranofsky in particular. Even Denis Villeneuve said Batman is the one character he'd be interested in tackling.

 

[Ryan]

It's not even close! And I'm not saying that to crap on other superheroes or anything, I wish we had more great Superman films for example. But Batman has always attracted really strong creative visions, it's glaringly apparant.

It's funny because I think the third Man of Steel trailer offered a lot of promise. Sadly, whoever put the trailer together did a better job of capturing the notes of Superman than the actual film.

 

[The Joker]

That's the job of a trailer. To try and make a movie look as good as possible. MOS is not the first time a trailer has made a CBM look better than it actually was. I remember the Spider-Man 3 trailers made it look like the darkest one of the Raimi trilogy.

 

[BatLobster]

It's funny because I think the third Man of Steel trailer offered a lot of promise. Sadly, whoever put the trailer together did a better job of capturing the notes of Superman than the actual film.

Fantastic trailer, definitely. I was blown away by it at the time. It still bugs me that the Zimmer's full theme for Superman wasn't really used beyond the very ending of MOS. Feels like a real waste of potential.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yeah that MOS trailer was fantastic. Unfortunately, the movie ended up being just noise to me. That's how I describe MOS overall haha. Just noisy. I may give it a rewatch soon because I actually do like Cavill as Superman, but I remember the last time I watched I was like "meh".

 

[Ryan]

Fantastic trailer, definitely. I was blown away by it at the time. It still bugs me that the Zimmer's full theme for Superman wasn't really used beyond the very ending of MOS. Feels like a real waste of potential.

Couldn't agree more. I still go back from time to time and rewatch the trailer and think 'if only". Real shame.

 

[Awest66]

I actually rewatched Man of Steel fairly recently because my brother really wanted to see it and while it's not as bad as I remembered it being, It still really rubs me the wrong way as a Superman fan in quite a few ways.

-The pointlessly overlong war scene on Krypton

-Clark is an extremely passive protagonist who barely even speaks

-Lois Lane is reduced to a generic love interest.

-Jonathan Kent is confusingly written (says Clark must keep his powers secret even at the expense of people's lives but then says Clark will change the wolrd)

-Jor-El makes it a big point to say Clark is Kryptons first natural birth in centuries and thus is free to choose his own path but also tells him he's basically laid out Clark's entire life for him.

-The Tornado scene

-Clark throws Zod into populated areas

-Metropolis getting thoroughly totaled because Superman doesn't bother to try and move Zod out of the city.

-Superman killing Zod plays out like an afterthought because, That's basically exactly what it was.

Damn good Trailers though.

 

[Rick190293]

MOS trailer 3 is indeed, a masterpiece. I like the movie, but yeah, very problematic. The potential...

 

[Gothamsknight]

I actually rewatched Man of Steel fairly recently because my brother really wanted to see it and while it's not as bad as I remembered it being, It still really rubs me the wrong way as a Superman fan in quite a few ways.

-The pointlessly overlong war scene on Krypton

-Clark is an extremely passive protagonist who barely even speaks

-Lois Lane is reduced to a generic love interest.

-Jonathan Kent is confusingly written (says Clark must keep his powers secret even at the expense of people's lives but then says Clark will change the wolrd)

-Jor-El makes it a big point to say Clark is Kryptons first natural birth in centuries and thus is free to choose his own path but also tells him he's basically laid out Clark's entire life for him.

-The Tornado scene

-Clark throws Zod into populated areas

-Metropolis getting thoroughly totaled because Superman doesn't bother to try and move Zod out of the city.

-Superman killing Zod plays out like an afterthought because, That's basically exactly what it was.

Damn good Trailers though.

Yup, I actually rewatched it yesterday and I agree with everything you said.

 

[BobJM]

Man, Man of Steel had so much promise.

Just a few oddball casting, and a script at odds with itself. Goyer needed someone more like Nolan and less like Snyder to deliver a coherent, character-driven piece that stayed on message.

I still wonder what it could have been like had Guillermo del Toro received the gig like originally asked by WB.

But, alas, for TDKR too, there’s an incredible movie there that I feel just needed a small polish to really get it there. Too much time spent on no-name characters, but at the wrong times. We have a city under siege but never really see the citizens’ perspective on any of it.

 

[Gothamsknight]

My biggest issue with Man of Steel is it's overall feeling of bleakness that Snyder tends to love. No Superman movie should be that bleak and almost depressing. It's not a bad movie, and not Snyders worst, but it's just far too serious. The actors were great, and i think Michael Shannon was a great Zod, and I like Cavill as Superman, but It's almost as if they were ashamed of the bright colors Superman is associated with. I could have forgiven Superman also being super serious in this movie too if it was corrected as part of his development, but instead of making a proper sequel, we got the abomination known as BVS which is due to Snyders relentless attempt at deconstructing Superman through all 3 of his on screen appearances.

 

[Ryan]

I don't do it often but every time I throw on mos for a bit, I find myself rooting for myself to like but equally being frustrated by the film. I thought the casting, for the most part, was spot on. Loved Cavill and Costner was a great choice too. I won't go on with all the nitpicks as most of them have been mentioned above by other posters. When I saw the trailers, especially the third, I was fairly excited how Snyder shot the scenes. The shots played out like pieces of art. However what played out so well short term in a trailer wasn't able to sustain itself storywise for an entire movie. Wtih all that being said, I think the second TDK trailer (not the teaser) is my all time favorite movie trailer. Evennningggg Commissioner.........

 

[Kargo Warrior]

I don't do it often but every time I throw on mos for a bit, I find myself rooting for myself to like but equally being frustrated by the film. I thought the casting, for the most part, was spot on. Loved Cavill and Costner was a great choice too. I won't go on with all the nitpicks as most of them have been mentioned above by other posters. When I saw the trailers, especially the third, I was fairly excited how Snyder shot the scenes. The shots played out like pieces of art. However what played out so well short term in a trailer wasn't able to sustain itself storywise for an entire movie. Wtih all that being said, I think the second TDK trailer (not the teaser) is my all time favorite movie trailer. Evennningggg Commissioner.........

Waiting for that trailer all night long is my favorite moment of all the years reading and posting on this forum. I will never forget it.

The hype over Heath's performance was incredible, and apart from a couple of pictures, and his dialogue in the teaser, we had nothing else. Then comes a leaked version a couple of hours before the official release of the trailer and nobody and i mean nobody could abstain from watching.

The realization that all the hype was real, that Heath had hit it out of the park, that this film would blow not only Batman Begins, but every comic book film out of the water...it was a dream come true.

Even after 13+ years, i still can't believe how big the hype was, and yet Nolan and co. managed to surpass it.