The Dark Knight Rises Tom Hardy as Bane XIV

[Doctor Who]

Ah! Vengeance of Bane Pt. I; good origin story. From what I've seen in TDKR filming and trailer this book will play a very heavy role in this movie.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

You really need things spelled out in 50 foot high letters for you, don't you?

Read carefully: I said being insane does not make you stupid. If it did,
characters like Hannibal Lecter would be morons. Joker's insanity, like
Lecter's, fuel his obsessions and uses his intelligence to carry out his insane schemes which are always brilliantly planned. Part of Joker's insanity is that it makes him unpredictable.

Again this was addressed in TDK. Batman didn't know how to deal with Joker. He thought Joker was after something rational. "Criminals are not complicated. We just need to figure out what he's after".

Did I say The Joker was doltish and incompetent? No. I was targeting your claim that The Joker's unpredictability elevates his intellect to levels above Bane's. Sorry, not buying that nonsense. This attribute has been beyond overflated, especially when varying from writer to writer. One minute he's a tactician and chemical engineer, and the next he's a simply an unpredictable lunatic with no rules spreading chaos everywhere he goes. The inconsistency is mindblowing.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with favoritism either, I suppose. Doomsday, Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern, and Lex Luther all happened to fall victim to The Joker because he is unpredictable, or perhaps it's another famous case of "Deus Ex Machina" in modern times for an overused villain who happens to somehow defy the laws of reason compared to every other villain in DC history.

You should feel honored that I've entertained you this far when you've not offered one comic book scan, or fact to back up your opinion. Instead I've had to contend with half baked answers, unfounded theories, and uninspired smilies for responses.

Oh yes, I have hundreds and hundreds of scans from the mythical collection of comics I own ready to go on an iTouch.

Quite impressive. Your pathetic attempt to justify the Joker's 'refreshing' strategy of kidnapping Batman's love interest and discreditation of Bane's accomplishments and tactics was absolutely golden. Talk about committment, Bravo!

 

[Blue_Scholar]

The Joker is Batman's arch-nemesis for a reason.

Right now this tit for tat between these two star-crossed lovers is the arch-nemesis of this thread.

 

[Doctor Who]

What's this whole argument between Joker and Bane?

 

[Faramir]

But The Joker is far more interesting than what you just described. I don't think Batman fans really "rate" the villains just on the degree of threat that they pose to Batman, but on the interest of the dramatic interplay between them.

Totally agreed. That's why my favourite villain is Catwoman. No joke. t:

 

[Faramir]

Did I say The Joker was doltish and incompetent? No. I was targeting your claim that The Joker's unpredictability elevates his intellect to levels above Bane's. Sorry, not buying that nonsense. This attribute has been beyond overflated, especially when varying from writer to writer. One minute he's a tactician and chemical engineer, and the next he's a simply an unpredictable lunatic with no rules spreading chaos everywhere he goes. The inconsistency is mindblowing.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with favoritism either, I suppose. Doomsday, Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern, and Lex Luther all happened to fall victim to The Joker because he is unpredictable, or perhaps it's another famous case of "Deus Ex Machina" in modern times for an overused villain who happens to somehow defy the laws of reason compared to every other villain in DC history.

Good heavens... You sir, can argue.
Hats off to you for being the only one analysing this from a writers' convenience perspective, and not focusing on DC universe history.

 

[The Joker]

The Joker is Batman's arch-nemesis for a reason.

Many reasons.

Did I say The Joker was doltish and incompetent? No. I was targeting your claim that The Joker's unpredictability elevates his intellect to levels above Bane's.

I never said any such thing. I said it was one of his attributes that makes him a cut above. The Joker is the kind of villain who will rob a bank, steal the money, and then burn the money. In the words of Gary Oldman, how do you anticipate a villain who thinks like that?

Sorry, not buying that nonsense. This attribute has been beyond overflated, especially when varying from writer to writer. One minute he's a tactician and chemical engineer, and the next he's a simply an unpredictable lunatic with no rules spreading chaos everywhere he goes. The inconsistency is mindblowing.

Tell me, what stories have you read where he's a tactician and an engineer, and what ever plan he was cooking up didn't involve causing some kind of chaos?

I'm sure it has nothing to do with favoritism either, I suppose.

Says the person who just told us all some back story about how Bane inspired your life.

Your hypocrisy is stifling.

Doomsday, Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern, and Lex Luther all happened to fall victim to The Joker because he is unpredictable, or perhaps it's another famous case of "Deus Ex Machina" in modern times for an overused villain who happens to somehow defy the laws of reason compared to every other villain in DC history.

Another testament to the excellent villain that he is. He is so adaptable to many universes beyond Batman's.

Even BTAS and the Justice league cartoons incorporated that into their cartoons, as both of those fantastic shows had the Joker going toe to toe with Superman and the Justice League.

Oh yes, I have hundreds and hundreds of scans from the mythical collection of comics I own ready to go on an iTouch.

Or you just don't have any scans to back up what you say because they don't exist. You have not even cited any specific stories or instances to back up these things you claim. Your only argument has been the mean old DC writers don't write Bane the way you want them to.

Quite impressive. Your pathetic attempt to justify the Joker's 'refreshing' strategy of kidnapping Batman's love interest and discreditation of Bane's accomplishments and tactics was absolutely golden. Talk about committment, Bravo!

If you're going to insult me, at least use something that's factual. Not once in this whole thread have I mentioned Joker kidnapping any of Batman's love interests. On the contrary, it was you who brought that up in the Batman 1989 and TDK movies in a failed attempt to accuse him of conforming to the cliche in order to get Batman, when it wasn't even done for that reason in EITHER of those movies.

 

[Stelze]

They're both pretty freakin' badass.

Let's just put it that way.

 

[The Joker]

Wizard magazine had a vote a few years ago for the greatest comic book villain of all time:

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Of course hes #1 hes the best!

 

[Yurka]

The Joker is possibly the greatest comic-book villain ever, but Bane being Batman's intellectual and physical superior should make for some incredible stories, but sadly he is underutilized and often the victim of shoddy writing.

I hope, and have a feeling, that building up to TDKR's release, we'll see more of Bane, and not just in promotional content for TDKR.

 

[Bat-Mite]

They're both pretty freakin' badass.

Let's just put it that way.

They are, but so is Ra's al Ghul for that matter. Bane is an awesome villain in his own right, but he's never going to be on the same level as the Joker. The Joker evolved into Batman's arch nemesis and that's the status he's had for decades. No villain is ever going to eclipse him in terms of the kind of impact he's had on Batman's life, even if a villain like Bane can come close for one specific moment in time.

 

[floreairfoot]

Totally agreed. That's why my favourite villain is Catwoman. No joke. t:

Catwoman is not a villain...

 

[Lily Adler]

Anti-hero?

 

[DoomsdayApex]

I never said any such thing. I said it was one of his attributes that makes him a cut above. The Joker is the kind of villain who will rob a bank, steal the money, and then burn the money. In the words of Gary Oldman, how do you anticipate a villain who thinks like that?

You have certainly implied the theory though. It's one of his MANY (so-called) attributes that makes The Joker a far more dangerous foe than Bane, Scarecrow, Ra's al Ghul, etc. After all, history has shown us that the egotistical and psychotic killer always manages to outlast the disciplined and resourceful killer.

Tell me, what stories have you read where he's a tactician and an engineer, and what ever plan he was cooking up didn't involve causing some kind of chaos?

I'm not an avid comic book reader here nor have I read The Joker's entire history. This is a department I thought you were knowledgable in. Don't try to revert this back on me. You know damn well what I was refering to. Each writer seems to present the Joker in a different light. Fellow hardcore Joker fans have admitted this flaw. In one arc he'll be represented as a crazed killer who is street smart and in another he'll be a complete nutty who happens to know his way around nuclear physics. I'm confident that other fellow fans/members here are aware of this fact, but you won't hear them come forward and acknowledge it, and neither will you.

Says the person who just told us all some back story about how Bane inspired your life.

Your hypocrisy is stifling.

I'm enticed by your desperate tactic. Bane never inspired 'my life'. It's obvious you did not comprehend what I wrote. I related to him, nothing more.

Moving forward, this statement was regarding to the writers and DC as a whole, NOT to you. Please try to put 1 and 1 together.

Another testament to the excellent villain that he is. He is so adaptable to many universes beyond Batman's.

Even BTAS and the Justice league cartoons incorporated that into their cartoons, as both of those fantastic shows had the Joker going toe to toe with Superman and the Justice League.

Testament to being an excellent villain, or testament of DC still willing to hang on their poster villain's testicles? Yes, the hypocrisy is indeed stifling.

Or you just don't have any scans to back up what you say because they don't exist. You have not even cited any specific stories or instances to back up these things you claim. Your only argument has been the mean old DC writers don't write Bane the way you want them to.

I've stated this numerous times, I have not been reading comics for 10 years nor do I possess a collection. While my knowledge on the subject at hand is limited, I am in no way flying blind. I've read my share of comics and seen every DC animated show. Along with watching and reading, I've bothered to go out of my way and ask hardcore fans about their characters, and ask about their opinions (online and on-Earth).

I'm terribly sorry you are unable to see what thousands of fans have said about Bane's demise in Knightfall following the sudden rise of Azrael. There's a difference between good writing and clumsy writing.

If you're going to insult me, at least use something that's factual. Not once in this whole thread have I mentioned Joker kidnapping any of Batman's love interests. On the contrary, it was you who brought that up in the Batman 1989 and TDK movies in a failed attempt to accuse him of conforming to the cliche in order to get Batman, when it wasn't even done for that reason in EITHER of those movies.

Factual? What have I stated that is false? Everything I've stated is true. I did not lie about anything.

That's right, I did mention it, right after you claimed that Bane's tactics were feeble. So I attacked your character's ability to be original when approaching Batman on the big screen. That is when you tried with outstanding effort to claim that The Joker's plans with his love interest did not revolve around Batman at all.

Please understand, hypocrisy goes both ways in this debate. You, however, have tried every angle and every tactic. Although I am huge fan of Bane, I am not biased. I love the Joker as well, and I'll be the first to state Bane's weaknesses. You, will not. You will find a way to justify the Joker somehow nearly killing Wonder Woman and knocking out Doomsday while at the same time avoiding being slaughtered or torn apart.

My opinion of Bane of being the superior tactician and skilled fighter and overall villain might cause a crawling sensation through your skin but it's true. The only reason why the Joker is this famous and the reason why he's transformed into this arch-nemesis role is because of his incredibly LONG history with the company.

 

[The Joker]

You have certainly implied the theory though.

I have implied nothing of the kind. I don't do implication. I flat out state something as it is. Especially if it's factual.

It's one of his MANY (so-called) attributes that makes The Joker a far more dangerous foe than Bane, Scarecrow, Ra's al Ghul, etc. After all, history has shown us that the egotistical and psychotic killer always manages to outlast the disciplined and resourceful killer.

That's right. But resourceful is also applicable to the Joker. He is very resourceful. The likes of Ra's, Scarecrow, Bane etc wouldn't do some of the horrors the Joker has done out of amusement or to prove some crazy point etc.

I'm not an avid comic book reader here nor have I read The Joker's entire history.

So why on earth should anyone take your claims seriously when you are ignorant of most of the character's history?

Surely this just shows you are being blindly biased. At least I'm judging Bane on what I've read of him.

This is a department I thought you were knowledgable in.

I am. Just say the word and I can give you a scan of something to back up what I've been saying here.

Don't try to revert this back on me. You know damn well what I was refering to. Each writer seems to present the Joker in a different light. Fellow hardcore Joker fans have admitted this flaw. In one arc he'll be represented as a crazed killer who is street smart and in another he'll be a complete nutty who happens to know his way around nuclear physics. I'm confident that other fellow fans/members here are aware of this fact, but you won't hear them come forward and acknowledge it, and neither will you.

I'll explain this to you very carefully. Yes, the Joker has often changed tactics. He wants to keep his "act" fresh. His plans can range from mass murder to psychotic schemes like making all the fish in Gotham City have his face.

But none of these is a contradiction of the other. How does him using poisons in one scheme, and say explosives in another go against the character? Does he have to use the same skills he possesses in every scheme he does? Does he have to have the same plot for every story? How dreadfully boring would he be if he spent every story trying to kill all of Gotham, or drive them all crazy etc?

Again that's another of the character's strengths, he has range. He is not confined to one kind of motive. Like a great comedian his act has range.

I'm enticed by your desperate tactic. Bane never inspired 'my life'. It's obvious you did not comprehend what I wrote. I related to him, nothing more.

You say tomato...

Moving forward, this statement was regarding to the writers and DC as a whole, NOT to you. Please try to put 1 and 1 together.

Let me get this straight, you are accusing seven decades worth of writers as all being biased towards the Joker?

Oh my, how could I not pick up on this? It's not like it's so hilariously absurd to be believed that the turn over of writers at DC for seven decades are all blindly biased towards Joker.

Testament to being an excellent villain, or testament of DC still willing to hang on their poster villain's testicles? Yes, the hypocrisy is indeed stifling.

How is that a hypocrisy? Why is DC using their greatest, thrilling and popular villain in other stories beyond Batman a hypocrisy? Was there some kind of backlash from the readers at seeing Joker step out of Gotham City and cause mischief elsewhere?

No. On the contrary, some of Joker's best stories involve him tangling with other heroes. But since you're not very knowledgeable in the comics as you confessed, then maybe you're familiar with the likes of this:

[YT]He4K-V502Xg[/YT]

You ever hear anyone cry foul that Joker went to Metropolis and messed with Superman? No, because Joker can and he did. It works beautifully.

I've stated this numerous times, I have not been reading comics for 10 years nor do I possess a collection. While my knowledge on the subject at hand is limited, I am in no way flying blind. I've read my share of comics and seen every DC animated show. Along with watching and reading, I've bothered to go out of my way and ask hardcore fans about their characters, and ask about their opinions (online and on-Earth).

You haven't read the comics in years, and you don't own any kind of comic collection.

Then by your own admission your knowledge is sketchy at best to the point where you cannot even pin point specific stories from a character you claim to love the best in order to re-enforce the points you're trying to make.

I'm terribly sorry you are unable to see what thousands of fans have said about Bane's demise in Knightfall following the sudden rise of Azrael. There's a difference between good writing and clumsy writing.

Can you show me any evidence of this thousands of fans backlash over Bane's defeat in Knightfall by Azrael? If it's as big as you say then there should be some evidence of it somewhere.

Can I see it, please? Because in all my years of posting here I've never seen anyone complain about it. Not here or anywhere else on the net.

Factual? What have I stated that is false? Everything I've stated is true. I did not lie about anything.

Virtually everything you've said about the Joker is false. From your false claims about his intelligence and resources, to the tactics he used in the movies with the love interests. Bane being painted as some kind of "unstoppable" entity in Knightfall when he sat most out of it out watching Batman deal with the Arkham escapees, and only took Batman on when he was weak and vulnerable.

Need I go on?

That's right, I did mention it, right after you claimed that Bane's tactics were feeble. So I attacked your character's ability to be original when approaching Batman on the big screen. That is when you tried with outstanding effort to claim that The Joker's plans with his love interest did not revolve around Batman at all.

Two things:

1. I never said Bane's tactics were feeble. On the contrary I said they were clever. What I said was it would have been more impressive if Bane had broken Batman in his prime instead of kicking him when he was down. Considering the character thinks he's Batman's better. Do I have to go back and dig up my posts where I said this?

2. The Joker's plans with the love interest in both movies had nothing to do with getting Batman at all. B'89's was all about the romantic infatuation he had with Vicki, and TDK's was about breaking Harvey. I'm waiting eagerly for you explain how you believe it was otherwise.

Please understand, hypocrisy goes both ways in this debate.

Where have I been a hypocrite? I'm going to great pains using comic book scans and other comic based facts to back up what I say.

Where am I being hypocritical on this?

You, however, have tried every angle and every tactic. Although I am huge fan of Bane, I am not biased. I love the Joker as well, and I'll be the first to state Bane's weaknesses. You, will not. You will find a way to justify the Joker somehow nearly killing Wonder Woman and knocking out Doomsday.

Where in this entire discussion have I ever said I dislike Bane? Where have you ever seen me speak a bad word about Bane being the choice of villain for this movie? In fact where have you seen me say anything negative regarding Hardy's Bane?

The only time I have highlighted Bane's short comings was in this discussion with you when you made the claim the Joker falls short as a villain in comparison to Bane.

My opinion of Bane of being the superior tactician and skilled fighter and overall villain might cause a crawling sensation through your skin but it's true.

I'm still waiting for you to present a valid argument for that. I can produce a plethora of scans that show Joker achieving accomplishments Bane has not done in a month of Sundays.

So you'll forgive me if I don't place much emphasis on your claim of it being true when you can't prove something that should be easy to prove if it's as factual as you claim it to be.

The only reason why the Joker is this famous and the reason why he's transformed into this arch-nemesis role is because of his incredibly LONG history with the company.

By that logic The Penguin and Catwoman should be considered Batman's arch enemies, too, considering their history with DC is just as long as Joker's, as is their history on the big screen and in TV shows, too.

The Joker transformed into Batman's arch nemesis because that's the way the character is written. That's who he is. His length of time in existence has sod all to do with it.

 

[Steyin]

I have a suspicion Doomsday won't be with us much longer if this persists...

 

[Blue_Scholar]

Yeah this is really becoming drag-ass, could you guys, perhaps, relegate your white people problems to private messages between one and other? Not all of us may care about what either of you think. Your opinions have been expressed ad nauseum. It was fun at first, but come on.

 

[floreairfoot]

Anti-hero?

Hero to anti-hero.

Often quite heroic, that's why I include hero.

 

[The Joker]

I have a suspicion Doomsday won't be with us much longer if this persists...

I don't want him to get banned. He just needs to calm down a bit.

Yeah this is really becoming drag-ass, could you guys, perhaps, relegate your white people problems to private messages between one and other? Not all of us may care about what either of you think.

By that token should we care what you think? If you don't like our conversation then put us on ignore.

Or report us to a moderator if you think we're out of line.

 

[Lily Adler]

It's like watching a train wreck. You want to stop looking but you can't look away.

 

[floreairfoot]

Yeah this is really becoming drag-ass, could you guys, perhaps, relegate your white people problems to private messages between one and other? Not all of us may care about what either of you think. Your opinions have been expressed ad nauseum. It was fun at first, but come on.

White people problems?

Don't even...

 

[venus_ice]

SO ANYWAY.

Tom makes a mention about TDKR and the fanboys here: http://bcove.me/cjmavzas

Bane should only drink teeny tiny cups of tea in this movie

 

[Lily Adler]

Tom Hardy is so AWESOME even bald.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Tom Hardy is just so cool