The Dark Knight Rises Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

[Brain Damage]

All my problems aside, if in the few years after Batman & Robin you had told me that someone would one day make a nearly 3 hour Batman movie where Batman himself only appeared for about twenty minutes and Bane and Talia are the villains, I would have laughed and shook my head.

So, props to Nolan and crew for at least having some big balls.

 

[BatLobster]

All my problems aside, if in the few years after Batman & Robin you had told me that someone would one day make a nearly 3 hour Batman movie where Batman himself only appeared for about twenty minutes and Bane and Talia are the villains, I would have laughed and shook my head.

So, props to Nolan and crew for at least having some big balls.

Kevin Smith has made this same exact point on a few different podcasts I've heard and I totally feel the same way. And to think we'd have Oscar nominated and wining actors in the roles of Ra's and Talia al Ghul- I mean as a Batman fan, it's hard not to have a sense of pride that the material was given such an epic and wholly cinematic treatment, and wasn't only trying to cash in on the popularity of all the flashy villains Batman is known for.

 

[Anno_Domini]

That's what irks a lot of fans, but I love it. Nolan made a Batman movie that rarely had the namesake superhero and made it really, a Bruce Wayne film.

Sad to say that some events kept TDKR away from the awards season when the film quite frankly deserved at least nominations

 

[BatLobster]

That's what irks a lot of fans, but I love it. Nolan made a Batman movie that rarely had the namesake superhero and made it really, a Bruce Wayne film.

Sad to say that some events kept TDKR away from the awards season when the film quite frankly deserved at least nominations

And with the final film they cemented the whole trilogy as one big Bruce Wayne story.

You know honestly, I might have to rank Bruce's climb out of the pit as my favorite scene in the film and one of my favorites in the trilogy. No matter how many times I watch it (or any of the three attempts), I just get chills. For a series that is known for being complex and twisty, there's a scene that is incredibly powerful in its simplicity.

 

[Marvolo]

Despite my issues with this film, this is still one of my favorite scenes in the whole trilogy.

[YT]-P_IEOGSKl8[/YT]

 

[Brain Damage]

Same

 

[BatLobster]

Mine too. That's why I totally buy into Bane and Talia's plans for Gotham. That scene sells me on it completely.

 

[Brain Damage]

Heh. That's funny, because it's exactly scenes like that one that make me hate Talia's inclusion even more

 

[The Joker]

I still to this day cannot make out Bane's words about the shipwrecked men turning to sea water in that scene.

 

[Brain Damage]

"And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying"

I believe that's it.

Other than a few lines here and there (mainly the "peace has cost you your strength" bit ) I understood pretty much everything Bane said the first time around. I think the trick is to sit in the center of the IMAX theater. If you sit towards the back or the sides of a Nolan IMAX film, you're gonna have a bad time

On that topic, one of my favorite bits of dialogue:

"This is a stock exchange. There's no money you can steal."
"Really? Then why are you people here?"

God, I love that whole stock exchange sequence SO much. And it really, really saddens me that the movie didn't explore those themes further.

 

[BatLobster]

Heh. That's funny, because it's exactly scenes like that one that make me hate Talia's inclusion even more

Guess it all depends on if one believes Bane's conviction about the righteousness of what they're doing. Personally, I do, but we don't need to dust off that ol' debate again

I still to this day cannot make out Bane's words about the shipwrecked men turning to sea water in that scene.

Not gonna lie, I heard "Seaworld" during my first viewing lol.

 

[JackWhite]

All my problems aside, if in the few years after Batman & Robin you had told me that someone would one day make a nearly 3 hour Batman movie where Batman himself only appeared for about twenty minutes and Bane and Talia are the villains, I would have laughed and shook my head.

So, props to Nolan and crew for at least having some big balls.

Batman's lack of screen time, plus the eight year gap, really gave him this mythical legendary status whenever he appeared on screen. A little bit more of Bale in the suit would have been nice, but for me, had Nolan gave more focus on Bane's revolution within the second act; with the people of Gotham questioning Batman's validity in light of Dent's horrific demise being revealed to the public, I wouldn't have had any qualms with less Batman in this film than say TDK or BB.

I still have a personal gripe that we didn't get to see Batman fighting through all of the mercenaries to finally get to Bane during the final battle. But that's just a personal thing.

[YT]-kXrjS7O1A0[/YT]

 

[JackWhite]

"And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying"

I believe that's it.

Other than a few lines here and there (mainly the "peace has cost you your strength" bit ) I understood pretty much everything Bane said the first time around. I think the trick is to sit in the center of the IMAX theater. If you sit towards the back or the sides of a Nolan IMAX film, you're gonna have a bad time

On that topic, one of my favorite bits of dialogue:

"This is a stock exchange. There's no money you can steal."
"Really? Then why are you people here?"

God, I love that whole stock exchange sequence SO much. And it really, really saddens me that the movie didn't explore those themes further.

The beginning of that scene all the way to Batman getting away from the cops with the Bat is pure bliss.

But yeah, they really set up the whole rich vs the poor thing extremely well throughout the first act. The funding for the orphanage going dry, disenfranchised Gothamites working with Bane and his militia underground, Selina and Bruce at the ball with the background shot of the rich snapping open some Lobster tails while laughing it up and of course the stock exchange scene. The best thing we got in the second act was the montage, but I think we all expected that to be just the tip of the iceberg for what was to come....or so we thought, lol.

 

[JackWhite]

Not gonna lie, I heard "Seaworld" during my first viewing lol.

LMAO, sometimes I still hear it as "Seaworld".

 

[BatLobster]

I love the montage. To me it's a suitable climax that brings those themes to a head. I don't really know how much more you could have explored rich vs. poor in a movie like this without risking getting overtly political and preachy.

Greed is what it is. It's something we all hate, but it's an unfortunate truth about human nature, especially urbanized life, that isn't going away any time soon. The themes about money have been there since the beginning though- this is a trilogy about a billionaire who puts his fortune to a very selfless and unusual use. To me Bruce entrusting the most important part of his inheritance and legacy to an average Joe (no pun intended lol) cop who grew up living the modest life of an orphan speaks volumes. As does his trust of Selena even after she betrayed him. No matter what, Bruce would not give up on believing Gotham was worth saving and that even the conflicted people like Selena were redeemable. I think that's rather beautiful. That's why I think his personal journey is appropriately placed at the center of the film rather than the social upheaval, which is a really intriguing subplot, don't get me wrong. Ultimately it's a story about this relentless humanitarian, not necessarily a sweeping statement about humanity itself. Which perhaps TDK sort of was, but then again Bruce Wayne wasn't the protagonist of that film in the same way he is in BB and TDKR.

I've always admired Nolan for putting subplots into his films that almost are interesting enough on their own merits to warrant an entire movie. I remember thinking the ferry situation in TDK could have easily been the main plot of a great suspense thriller, or an entire season of 24.

 

[Brain Damage]

A good subplot, I think, doesn't get resolved halfway through the movie with the bad guys winning

The rich vs poor thing needed to come to a head in the climax. Because it didn't, the people of Gotham just seemed like ***** to be honest. Yeah, they revolt and then that's it? We get no indication that they even WANT Batman to come back and save them.

From what we see, the vast majority of the people in Gotham seem to LIKE living under Bane's rule. They're popping champagne, partying in houses, happily sentencing people to their deaths, etc. We never get to see them have their redemption like we did in the TDK ferry scene, which is a big, big problem in my opinion.

 

[BatLobster]

A good subplot, I think, doesn't get resolved halfway through the movie with the bad guys winning

The rich vs poor thing needed to come to a head in the climax. Because it didn't, the people of Gotham just seemed like ***** to be honest. Yeah, they revolt and then that's it? We get no indication that they even WANT Batman to come back and save them.

From what we see, the vast majority of the people in Gotham seem to LIKE living under Bane's rule. They're popping champagne, partying in houses, happily sentencing people to their deaths, etc. We never get to see them have their redemption like we did in the TDK ferry scene, which is a big, big problem in my opinion.

But to me that's a misconception. The vast majority of people in Gotham are scared out of their wits and are holed up in their homes. We catch glimpses of this when with Blake and Fr. Reilly's scene, the scene where Foley decides to stay with his family, the scene where people are coming out of their homes after the nuke goes off. The deserted streets throughout the second and third act. You think most people liked living like that?

We're talking about a city with a population of 12 million. Bane's army and the freed Blackgate prisoners consisted of a hefty part of the revolution. Yep, they picked up some regular citizens along the way like the people throwing stuff during the kangaroo court but those are a drop in the ocean when you take the population of the entire "99%" into account. Plus, Bane had recruited some Gothamites long before setting the plans into motion so those folks might as well be honorary LOS members. Essentially bad guys/henchmen in movie terms.

The thing is, I just think it was completely consistent with the ferry scene and in fact a logical extension of it. The redemption isn't exactly pure in that scene. They voted by an overwhelming majority to blow up the other boat. The only reason they didn't? Fear. Nobody wanted to get their hands dirty. So that's what we see in TDKR when the chips are truly down. Most people are frozen in a state of fear. And yeah, some of the citizens turn out to be pretty rotten and susceptible to mob mentality. I applaud the movie for allowing that to just be and not forcing an all-encompassing redemption into the story. And I love that Batman saves everyone in this film, regardless of who "deserves" saving or not. It makes him even more heroic to all of Gotham and cements him as this legend/savior.

And as far as them giving no indication that people wanted Batman to return...well, if Batman's fire signal inspired Foley, the guy who was trying to bring down the Batman earlier in the film, I'd have to imagine it was a welcome sight for plenty of scared Gothamites too. And no, I didn't need to see a bunch of random extras looking out their window to get that impression

 

[JackWhite]

A good subplot, I think, doesn't get resolved halfway through the movie with the bad guys winning

The rich vs poor thing needed to come to a head in the climax. Because it didn't, the people of Gotham just seemed like ***** to be honest. Yeah, they revolt and then that's it? We get no indication that they even WANT Batman to come back and save them.

From what we see, the vast majority of the people in Gotham seem to LIKE living under Bane's rule. They're popping champagne, partying in houses, happily sentencing people to their deaths, etc. We never get to see them have their redemption like we did in the TDK ferry scene, which is a big, big problem in my opinion.

That is for me the biggest problem. I know Blake was going around marking random street objects with the chalk Bat-logo and then the special forces guy tells him to put his faith into something real, but it's way too glossed over. Even Bruce Wayne's sudden resurgence gets a response from not only the snobs at the stock exchange but the paparazzi also. Yet Batman gets practically nothing of a response from the average Gothamite and he had two returns in the film.

Not to be all gloom, the reactions for his first return as Batman was perfect - Catwoman's "what do you know?", Daggett getting all PO'd then having some reassurance from Stryver, Gordon trying to crack a smile while hospital ridden, the young cop not even thinking it could possibly be Batman who races past his squad car, yet it's the older cop who knows what's up. So not all bad on that front at least.

 

[Marvolo]

"You're In for a show tonight, son."

As superhero movies go it wasn't much of a show, but when you think about what Batman did that night in the context of the realistic world Nolan created it was one hell of a show. A caped masked vigilante fleeing an armada of cops on some weird ass electric motorcycle with guns and flying off in a lobster copter jet would blow my mind if I witnessed that **** in real life.

 

[bilbo baggins]

"Your In for a show tonight, son."

As superhero movies go it wasn't much of a show, but when you think about what Batman did that night in the context of the realistic world Nolan created it was one hell of a show. A caped masked vigilante fleeing an armada of cops on some weird ass electric motorcycle with guns and flying off in a lobster copter jet would blow my mind if I witnessed that **** in real life.

^^^ this is great

 

[kvz5]

The Gothamites were just plain misrepresented in TDKR which was weird because the marketing of TDKR hyped the supposed class war that will happen in Gotham. They had very little voice compared to BB and TDK. You know what I loved? That thing they showed at the Man of Steel featurette where [blackout]they showed the ordinary people getting **** scared, running in all directions, getting inside their houses/stores, and locking doors.[/blackout] That was something I thought we'd see in TDKR that we never did.

 

[Anno_Domini]

And with the final film they cemented the whole trilogy as one big Bruce Wayne story.

Agreed. I think Nolan even said first and foremost he wanted people to care about Bruce Wayne, the man behind the mask. And people indeed cared

Despite my issues with this film, this is still one of my favorite scenes in the whole trilogy.

[YT]-P_IEOGSKl8[/YT]

Great scene. Love the little eye twitch from Hardy when he says "severe". His eyes tell so much on what's going on when Hardy has to talk through that mask.

Mine too. That's why I totally buy into Bane and Talia's plans for Gotham. That scene sells me on it completely.

Agreed. It sort of makes you go back and wonder what exactly the plan was(well, at least for me after the first showing) because I didn't quite get it, but in the end of that speech in the Pit, Bane mentioned how when Bruce truly understands the depth of his failure, it hit me that the plan was about getting all the criminals to "rule" Gotham that Batman helped put away. For a while I wondered why Bane's plan seemed odd when it seemed he was going to let all of Gotham try to rule Gotham, but no, it was basically the criminals when the "true" corrupted are punished(the rich capitalist businessmen, cops, etc). When you understand that, I think you enjoy Bane's plan and also when it's just an act and that the true despair is that it's all a show for Bruce to witness before Gotham is destroyed. Bane and Talia doesn't care about an uprising or a revolution(remember when Talia was leaving in The Tumbler, telling the driver to shoot them all). They just wanted Bruce to witness Gotham going back to its early days where there wasn't any hope, where the actual, real criminals ran the city with iron fists and then boom...Gotham is in ashes. It really brings Batman's external conflict(the LoS) and the internal conflict(the mobs) together in one film to end off the trilogy.

A good subplot, I think, doesn't get resolved halfway through the movie with the bad guys winning

The rich vs poor thing needed to come to a head in the climax. Because it didn't, the people of Gotham just seemed like ***** to be honest. Yeah, they revolt and then that's it? We get no indication that they even WANT Batman to come back and save them.

From what we see, the vast majority of the people in Gotham seem to LIKE living under Bane's rule. They're popping champagne, partying in houses, happily sentencing people to their deaths, etc. We never get to see them have their redemption like we did in the TDK ferry scene, which is a big, big problem in my opinion.

I didn't mind that we didn't get some silly extras clamoring for Batman to return, but I DID WANT something from Gordon trying to wonder why Batman is gone again and during a time that's at its worst for the last eight years. I liked the idea that Blake was trying to give some hope to the city by tagging the Batman symbol, but something straight from Gordon, I felt, needed to be shown. Gotham City was a city I cared about already, so I never wanted to see a whole lot of extras being shown wanting to see Batman or what have you(I mean, if we had two parts, then I'm sure we could've seen plenty of that).

Also, I think the 'rich v poor' idea did come to a head at the end, but just not in a typical fashion. Bruce giving Wayne Manor away to the orphanage is a way to give hope to the next generation that has nothing, so they won't become what we saw in Batman Begins where they had to live on the streets, striving to work alongside the mob.

The Gothamites were just plain misrepresented in TDKR which was weird because the marketing of TDKR hyped the supposed class war that will happen in Gotham. They had very little voice compared to BB and TDK. You know what I loved? That thing they showed at the Man of Steel featurette where [blackout]they showed the ordinary people getting **** scared, running in all directions, getting inside their houses/stores, and locking doors.[/blackout] That was something I thought we'd see in TDKR that we never did.

We did see people scared to death, though. We saw people not knowing how to react when they were being dragged out of their homes. I bet Man of Steel won't go further into that, either, besides just seeing people running for their lives.

 

[BatLobster]

The Gothamites were just plain misrepresented in TDKR which was weird because the marketing of TDKR hyped the supposed class war that will happen in Gotham. They had very little voice compared to BB and TDK. You know what I loved? That thing they showed at the Man of Steel featurette where [blackout]they showed the ordinary people getting **** scared, running in all directions, getting inside their houses/stores, and locking doors.[/blackout] That was something I thought we'd see in TDKR that we never did.

Speaking as a Heinz Field extra, I beg to differ as I spent hours upon hours in the blistering heat running, screaming, and panicking

 

[JackWhite]

I just finished watching TDKR again and man, that ending really got me. Especially when Gordon says "They know. It was the Batman", then they cut to the Batman statue being revealed. Really great stuff.

It's funny how much the final chase has grown on me over my last few viewings of the film. I remember being so underwhelmed with it when I first saw the film, now I get excited when Batman tells Catwoman that he needs her on the ground and he will be in the air.

 

[Marvolo]

Agreed. I think Nolan even said first and foremost he wanted people to care about Bruce Wayne, the man behind the mask. And people indeed cared



Great scene. Love the little eye twitch from Hardy when he says "severe". His eyes tell so much on what's going on when Hardy has to talk through that mask.



Agreed. It sort of makes you go back and wonder what exactly the plan was(well, at least for me after the first showing) because I didn't quite get it, but in the end of that speech in the Pit, Bane mentioned how when Bruce truly understands the depth of his failure, it hit me that the plan was about getting all the criminals to "rule" Gotham that Batman helped put away. For a while I wondered why Bane's plan seemed odd when it seemed he was going to let all of Gotham try to rule Gotham, but no, it was basically the criminals when the "true" corrupted are punished(the rich capitalist businessmen, cops, etc). When you understand that, I think you enjoy Bane's plan and also when it's just an act and that the true despair is that it's all a show for Bruce to witness before Gotham is destroyed. Bane and Talia doesn't care about an uprising or a revolution(remember when Talia was leaving in The Tumbler, telling the driver to shoot them all). They just wanted Bruce to witness Gotham going back to its early days where there wasn't any hope, where the actual, real criminals ran the city with iron fists and then boom...Gotham is in ashes. It really brings Batman's external conflict(the LoS) and the internal conflict(the mobs) together in one film to end off the trilogy.



I didn't mind that we didn't get some silly extras clamoring for Batman to return, but I DID WANT something from Gordon trying to wonder why Batman is gone again and during a time that's at its worst for the last eight years. I liked the idea that Blake was trying to give some hope to the city by tagging the Batman symbol, but something straight from Gordon, I felt, needed to be shown. Gotham City was a city I cared about already, so I never wanted to see a whole lot of extras being shown wanting to see Batman or what have you(I mean, if we had two parts, then I'm sure we could've seen plenty of that).

Also, I think the 'rich v poor' idea did come to a head at the end, but just not in a typical fashion. Bruce giving Wayne Manor away to the orphanage is a way to give hope to the next generation that has nothing, so they won't become what we saw in Batman Begins where they had to live on the streets, striving to work alongside the mob.



We did see people scared to death, though. We saw people not knowing how to react when they were being dragged out of their homes. I bet Man of Steel won't go further into that, either, besides just seeing people running for their lives.

About Bane and Talia's plan, essentially they were pulling the wings off of a fly (Bruce being the fly). Talia and Bane wanted him to see all his work undone and then to blow it up. Its vindictive to say the least.