Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - Part 9

[Majik1387]

Careful, Project Pat may be taking you serious and start insulting you.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Wouldn't want that, Heaven forbid

 

[Micromind]

Anne Hathaway's Catwoman, while no cleavage, is in skin tight leather.

Nobody complains when Spider-man's costume and Superman's costume is skin-tight but Catwoman's skin tight costume is a problem how ?

Obviously there's a double standard guys.as we spend a lot of time talking about looks and body and briefly discuss character maybe once every few months. And we're the WW fans...

You should take a look at male heroes casting threads again, fans talk about the male actors look and physique as much, where is the double standard ?

 

[Doc Ock]

By far the best candidate there is for Wonder Woman

Spoiler

I'm too tired to think straight

*clicks spoiler*



*goes blind*

 

[Rodrigo90]

Wonder Woman, the first ever comic book superheroine, was created by some pervy psychiatrist, who shared a lover with his wife. She was created to be as sexualized as possible, and put into male dominated situations...which were sexually suggestive. When those aspects were reduced - stripped, sales of the comic plummeted.

 

[Rodrigo90]

*clicks spoiler*



*goes blind*

If it's any constellation, I now have to wear glasses to watch tv, read and drive.

Can you see to read this?

 

[Red Mask]

and going by set shots, there will be much bare barrellchested hairymaness from Cavill in Superman of steel, so there is another super-streaker to add to the list.

Unless he's wantonly flying around naked for more than split second, he's not streaking.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

If it's any constellation, I now have to wear glasses to watch tv, read and drive.

Can you see to read this?

Constellation?

 

[Majik1387]

Nobody complains when Spider-man's costume and Superman's costume is skin-tight but Catwoman's skin tight costume is a problem how ?

Read the full post, and the post that my post was responding to. A poster had no idea which female heroes Jaime Alexander could have been referring to when she referenced skintight suits and pushed up boobs. I gave the examples that weren't named yet.

 

[Primal Slayer]

By far the best candidate there is for Wonder Woman

Spoiler

I'm too tired to think straight

What do people think of Gina Carano? Ive just heard of her since the new rumor around the internet is that she may cameo in MoS as WW.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

New? In what world?

 

[soundofyousick]

Unless he's wantonly flying around naked for more than split second, he's not streaking.

But Superman is world famous for streaking across the sky?! moreso this time, given lack of under/over pants.

 

[Micromind]

read the full post, and the post that my post was responding to. A poster had no idea which female heroes jaime alexander could have been referring to when she referenced skintight suits and pushed up boobs. I gave the examples that weren't named yet.

ok.

 

[Project862006]

Airwings will agree with you lol

 

[Zionite1]

So I was wondering if we cld all just take a break from all the casting choices and talk about what actually makes WB fearful of making the Wonderwoman movies-which is the story.

So in your opinions how shld the story in the movie be presented?what can the film do to ensure its success with the audience? and what story ideas wld you see implemented?

You may begin

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

 

[The Guard]

Nobody complains when Spider-man's costume and Superman's costume is skin-tight but Catwoman's skin tight costume is a problem how ?

This.

Many male superhero suits have molded musculature, for goodness sake. They've often got codpieces designed to make them look well endowed. Nevermind that there's often a scene where they take their shirt off, etc. What, because less skin is showing, the male heroes are somehow inherently less sexualized/fetishized?

 

[Airwings]

By far the best candidate there is for Wonder Woman

Spoiler

I'm too tired to think straight

Far from the best. But I will accept it as an ok choice, in my own opinion.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

Many male superhero suits have molded musculature, for goodness sake. They've often got codpieces designed to make them look well endowed. Nevermind that there's often a scene where they take their shirt off, etc. What, because less skin is showing, the male heroes are somehow inherently less sexualized/fetishized?

I think the point is, even though male superheroes are sexualized to some extent, the females are overly done so.

The male superhero may have a skin tight suit, but it covers his entire body. With the exception of a few, like Namor or Ka-Zar, all the men have head to toe suits, that while clinging to their body to show off every muscle they have, they still conceit them.

The female superheroes usually have on a swimsuit with a cape and mask. It doesn't protect them from a basic road rash from being knocked to the ground much less a bullet. If most female suits were on a real human, the superheroine would be spending more time trying to reinsert her breasts into the costume than fighting the bad guy.

 

[soundofyousick]

I think the point is, even though male superheroes are sexualized to some extent, the females are overly done so.

The male superhero may have a skin tight suit, but it covers his entire body. With the exception of a few, like Namor or Ka-Zar, all the men have head to toe suits, that while clinging to their body to show off every muscle they have, they still conceit them.

The female superheroes usually have on a swimsuit with a cape and mask. It doesn't protect them from a basic road rash from being knocked to the ground much less a bullet. If most female suits were on a real human, the superheroine would be spending more time trying to reinsert her breasts into the costume than fighting the bad guy.

You are talking about comic-books though, we are talking about in the live-action films.
Look at the latest pec pic from the Wolverine that was released today, and there was another with him topless and bursting with muscle, in fact HJ had to say in a press release that he had not been photoshopped to look that way. So, people are actually expecting the studios to airbrush and photoshop the guys to look more attractive on the posters when they are half naked.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

You are talking about comic-books though, we are talking about in the live-action films.
Look at the latest pec pic from the Wolverine that was released today, and there was another with him topless and bursting with muscle, in fact HJ had to say in a press release that he had not been photoshopped to look that way. So, people are actually expecting the studios to airbrush and photoshop the guys to look more attractive on the posters when they are half naked.

Hollywood, and all entertainment type publications, airbrush everyone. About the only place to get a natural looking picture is National Geographic and I wouldn't place a heavy bet on that any more.

 

[soundofyousick]

Hollywood, and all entertainment type publications, airbrush everyone. About the only place to get a natural looking picture is National Geographic and I wouldn't place a heavy bet on that any more.

Yeah, the first topless photo was very stylised(as opposed to the more natural photo released today), so there would have been some colouring added with airbrushed effects, but what HJ was saying was that the muscle was all his, they had not photoshopped his body from Giant Haystacks or someone like that.

 

[The Guard]

I think the point is, even though male superheroes are sexualized to some extent, the females are overly done so.

See, I don’t really think so. I think men are sexualized/fetishized in the way that culture does regarding men, and women are sexualized/fetishized in the way culture does regarding women.

The male superhero may have a skin tight suit, but it covers his entire body.
With the exception of a few, like Namor or Ka-Zar, all the men have head to toe suits, that while clinging to their body to show off every muscle they have, they still conceit them.

That doesn’t necessarily matter when it comes to intent, because like the female illustrations, they might as well be largely naked. There’s very little left to the
imagination. It’s about the overall visual and the symbol of it.

The female superheroes usually have on a swimsuit with a cape and mask. It doesn't protect them from a basic road rash from being knocked to the ground much less a bullet. If most female suits were on a real human, the superheroine would be spending more time trying to reinsert her breasts into the costume than fighting the bad guy.

Superhero suits haven’t historically been about protection (though writers and creators have begun exploring these elements, even with the more scantily clad superheroes). They’ve been about creating a particular visual, or a symbol.

People seem to want to make it all about exposed skin, which I think is kind of missing the point entirely. Because in our society, men and women are sexualized differently to begin with. Superheroes are an extreme reflection of those ideas.

Yes, “naked is naked”, but men in our society tend to be sexualized through a certain portrayal of masculinity. The square jaw or other attractive, sharp features, big muscles, the stoic, sometimes aggressive nature, nice clothing, etc.

Whereas conversely, women tend to be sexualized through revealing clothing or jewelry. That’s the way its been for a long time. When you see a man sexualized (granted, non model/stripper), he’s usually wearing a suit or nice clothing. When you see a woman sexualized, she’s wearing clothing that highlights her figure, or a somewhat revealing dress. Cleavage and skin have long been elements of the sexualized female. This is not true so much for men. Which is part of the reason why you don’t see Superman running around with his legs showing, or with “male cleavage”. Society doesn’t recognize these as particularly valid portrayals of the masculine. Certain character designs have played with this expectation, and subverted these ideals a bit.

You see conventional fantasy portrayals in comics and sci-fi. The “barbarian” look, a la Conan, with Namor and a few other characters, or a more classic interpretation, the caped “hero”, etc, etc.

But in general, why would a man be sexualized in a way he hadn’t been in society for a long time?

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Lol you're wrong man. Your lengthy post is just a lame rationalization. And not an original one either. If you can't accept the obvious reality that women in general and women superheroes in particular are hypersexualized - way beyond the men - then just let it go.

 

[DrCosmic]

Nice try, but no, you must be forgetting the fact that Wolverine runs around topless and in a vest for a lot of the time. Female fans on this site comment on that a lot. There is something in these movies for both genders, it is about equal.
Chris Evans as both Cap and Torch showed off topless a lot of the time.
Not to mention guys wearing skintight outfits and showing off bare muscular arms for not much reason.
There are not many female superheroes showing skin, whereas most of the guys do at some point. So it balances out as equal.
Not to mention the females will of course be in their secret identities, ie fully clothed for the majority of the time.

This isn't a skin discussion though, it's a sexuality discussion. Black Widow is a far more sexualized character than Thor, eve though he shows more skin. Catwoman is a far more sexualized character than Batman, even though they show the same amount of skin. Measuring square inches of skin is virtually pointless when you have Black Widow covered from neck to toe straddling bad guys' faces and Hulk with a flimsy pair of pants who is completely unsexualized. Especially if your argument is: "see this one guy, so it's all equal!"

Fair enough. I was referring more to this:

"All she does is sit and eat ice cream while she's crying over a boy. I know that never aired, but that's what the script said."

Which, in itself, is an inaccurate, hyperbolic statement. That's not all Diana does. Not in the least.

The bias is apparent because she presents a BIASED account of the show. She flat out says that’s “all she does”. She doesn't mention the fact that the show was set to actually explore some of the complaints/issues people (and apparently Jamie) have about female superheroes, specifically Wonder Woman. That this was not all Diana did. That it was a miniscule part of her characterization. And if she’d read the script or seen the pilot, she would know this. She’s either actually ignorant of the material, or she's being dishonest about it and the tone/approach of the show for a soundbyte.

That's true, it's definitely hyperbolic. But it's the same hyperbole that other un-famous fans gave for the same issue, if anything, she's biased towards the character of Wonder Woman, who, is internally strong and doesn't heartlessly torture and kill people, instead of the other way around. I also saw the script and pilot and did not conclude that the show would do anything deeper than the shallow character-degenerating dolls **** discussion. Only the stalwart defenders of the show thought that the exploration was/would be anything beyond shameless and embarrassing. Jamie hasn't given any complaints that haven't been given more hyperbolically by other Wondy fans. If it's ignorance or dishonesty, then so were all the posts in this thread around that time.

The lack of imagination, in my mind, shows up in the fact that she apparently can't conceive of a Wonder Woman or a female character who (gasp) wears a skintight costume, and who is also a positive role model. In that suggesting that somehow women with their breasts showing or who wear tight clothing, or who gasp, show off their beauty or their bodies can't be considered decent role models.

In this instance, I could care less if her take about what's rather obvious is dead on. Hollywood sexualizes and fetishizes heroes and superheroes alike. It’s part of the culture and the genre.

But the idea that she would be embarrassed, as a woman, because another woman chooses to dress a certain way, or because (gasp) a woman is depicted eating ice cream and crying over a boy (things that, yes, people actually do, cliche or not), I find statements like that to be absurd.

Why would you gather that when she suggests exactly that? If she's gonna be sexually exploited (because she's not a real woman making decisions about presenting herself, she's written by men, often for men), she should also be a role model. That's what she said last, taking that and imagining she couldn't put together what she emphatically put together is exactly what you accused her of doing with regards to the Kelley WW show.

Women dressing uber sexy and being paper-thin as characters *is* embarrassing. How could it not be?

This.

Many male superhero suits have molded musculature, for goodness sake. They've often got codpieces designed to make them look well endowed. Nevermind that there's often a scene where they take their shirt off, etc. What, because less skin is showing, the male heroes are somehow inherently less sexualized/fetishized?

Not inherently, but remember Spider-Man is only one guy, in a field of armored generally unsexualized characters... and we're comparing him to a field of skintight sexualized characters, and saying "see equality!" That's a bit blind to the magnitude of what's being discussed.

And again, showing a bare chest for two (2) minutes is not more scintillating than showing your cleavage and every curve for 40 minutes.

Let's play a game, you name a male character you feel is sexualized fetishized, and I'll name a female character that is more sexualized/fetishized, and with less character development to make them more than a sexual object. Let's see who runs out of names first. Should be easy for you, since there are so many more male characters than female ones.

Obviously you don't want to play the other way around, where you name a female character that is not sexualized, and I name a male character that is not sexualized. Unless you do, of course.

Wonder Woman, the first ever comic book superheroine, was created by some pervy psychiatrist, who shared a lover with his wife. She was created to be as sexualized as possible, and put into male dominated situations...which were sexually suggestive. When those aspects were reduced - stripped, sales of the comic plummeted.

This is mostly true. What is also true is that that same pervy psychiatrist believed that truth and love could fix the world, and made a character that I feel successfully embodied that. Note that those situations that appeared to be male dominated in fact never were, she would pretend to be vulnerable to overcome her enemies. Even when *she* thought she had been male dominated it turned out she had not. When that core of the character was lost, that core that attracted young girls and gave the female archetype, with all its sexuality and vulnerability, real power and initiative, the sales plummeted, even when sexually suggestive covers and stories continued, and still continue today.

Overall
Wonder Woman has always been more than a sexual entity, and any even moderately successful incarnation understands that. You can't remove the sexuality from WW, and I don't think anyone, Jamie included, suggested that, but there's a clear difference between someone wearing something in order to be a sex object, and someone wearing something because it's a part of her identity as a full fledged character, which includes her sexuality.

Generally when something becomes utterly impractical, unrelated to the storyline, stripper-like (unless the character is a sex worker of some sort), or forced upon them somehow, the audience can easily, and accurately, write the character off as a sex object. Even for developed characters, it shows in the marketing, it shows in the fighting style, it shows in their contribution to the team/group/story. They're embarassing, and part of the reason female actioners fail is because they are seen as, and virtually always portrayed as, glorified love interests.

For Wonder Woman, this means making the character sexy instead of the image sexy. Letting her costume flow from her background, not from favorite pin up images. She should be attractive because of who she is, not just what she looks like. If she's in a pose that's not normally considered sexy, but it is when she does it, you're on the right track. An acid test is, would it look just as/more sexy with Hottie of the Month wearing it? Then you're doing Wonder Woman wrong. She doesn't have to be in hotpants and spandex, not any more than Batman did, and you see how well that worked out.