Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[psylockolussus]

You know what Jubilee having a cameo role can still be good and having an early death in the film is fine as long as they do it well. Jubilee was an extra and was not theX2 Colossus of the film. Havok's death was overshadowed by Peter's goofing around an exploding mansion.

 

[Stan Lee]

I think it could have been done well. But this was horribly executed, and there was barely any relationship with Scott and his bro.

That's because they cut the scene. I think Singer tries too hard with the pacing.

Havok blindly created his own death so Quicksilver could have a fun scene, then it's like an after thought that he died. It was disrespectful. These films kill off X-Men like the filmmakers don't care about them, and at this point I don't think they care about the majority. That Emma Frost line in DOFP still makes me angry. Why would that even be in the script? This is one of X-Mens leading Women, start wiring them well or don't use/mention them. Recast her if they had an issue with the actress.

Emma Frost is a telepath like Xavier and remember what happened when he died? So I wouldn't be upset about characters like that.

 

[def28]

That's because they cut the scene. I think Singer tries too hard with the pacing.

Singer and Ottman have been pretty solid with pacing. This film felt like a rushed product and a mess.

I'm not the biggest fan of DOFP but that is a very difficult film to pace and they did a good job. Not as good as X2's pacing imo but good. Having seen the Rogue cut the right choices were made.

Emma Frost is a telepath like Xavier and remember what happened when he died? So I wouldn't be upset about characters like that

How was he brought back?

Of course they will bring Frost back, she's too major of a character in a ton of X-Men storylines. That's why that move was so stupid. They will recast eventually and probably won't have any connection to this one. The Emma from FC won't be back and it's bs to have to wait 5 years if they actually had a plan. It was poor writing one way or the other. An offscreen death for a fan favorite character after this series allegedly realized that prematurely killing characters pissed off people and was a bad decision for future films? They make the same mistakes and don't plan.

Banshee was a cool character. Dead after one film.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Singer and Ottman have been pretty solid with pacing. This film felt like a rushed product.

I'm not the biggest fan of DOFP but that is a very difficult film to pace and they did a good job. Not as good as X2's pacing imo but good.



Of course they will bring Frost back, she's too major of a character to a ton of X-Men storylines. But this Emma won't be and it's bs to have to wait 5 years if they actually had a plan. It was poor writing one way or the other. An offscreen death for a fan favorite character after this series allegedly realized that prematurely killing characters pissed off people and was a bad decision for future films?

Banshee was a cool character. Dead after one film.

I never wanna see January Jones as Emma Frost again. So bad and stiff. Probably the weakest part of first class.

 

[def28]

I never wanna see January Jones as Emma Frost again. So bad and stiff. Probably the weakest part of first class.

I wasn't a huge fan of her either, but killing that character off screen was stupid. Again, recast if it's a matter of the actress. And if there's no role in this film, then don't even bother mentioning her and bring her back when the time is right. They are just shooting themselves in the foot over and over.

I want to see developed characters based on the X-Men comics, not ones that show up say a few lines, disappear and then die. These are fantastic characters in their hands and if they want success then they will have to try harder to show audiences why they matter and are worthy of their time.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I'd definitely take X3 over Apocalypse.

Same.

1000% agree

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[magneto23]

Be it X3 or Apocalypse every geek friend I know either hates both or didn't even bother seeing Apocalypse. I'm pretty sure this one is hurting the franchise more, at least going from everything I read on messages/movie boards, box office, movie sites and people I talk to.

That sounds like complete BS to me. One movie rejuvenated core X-Men characters and left stories open for the future. The other, killed off the most important X-Men characters effectively shutting down the series as we knew it. How is this even a debate? Apocalypse was at best mediocre. But at least it brings promise with it. They can easily continue from where they left off. TLS shut this thing down. If it takes 5 years and a new cast to get things back on track for the X-Men then we can say Apocalypse ended up hurting the franchise more.

 

[def28]

That sounds like complete BS to me. One movie rejuvenated core X-Men characters and left stories open for the future. The other, killed off the most important X-Men characters effectively shutting down the series as we knew it. How is this even a debate? Apocalypse was at best mediocre. But at least it brings promise with it. They can easily continue from where they left off. TLS shut this thing down. If it takes 5 years and a new cast to get things back on track for the X-Men then we can say Apocalypse ended up hurting the franchise more.

Yet you have actually agreed with me on this not long ago haha. Fox has one more chance with this new cast. The next X-Men film starring them is now a risk and will need to be lower budget. Apocalypse was not the hit Fox wanted it to be or a good launching pad for this new cast who was not the main draw in advertising. That's why it hurts more then X3 which was a big success even with the blah reviews and fan hate. It was a series high in numbers.

People still showed to XMOW and as pointed out it was successful dispite harsh wom and being leaked. X3 did not shut the series down, and they had no problem adding Cyclops and Prof X to XMOW. They could have also written a story around Cyc and Jean in First Class but no.

Fox should be pushing the leader of the X-Men as a star. An issue for the future now is this franchise has never banked on Cyclops at all, and thats a mistake. How much of a draw do you think he was to the general public? There are just dozens of characters Fox can rotate to create something new. Fox could just put it's money on New Mutants being Prof X's core team. Just like FC. Then a new Cyc and crew will pop up some time later. Cause that's what they do here. Not saying that's what I want, I would like this new cast to be the leads in a smaller more personal film with say Sinister or Shadow King as a villain.

Creatively you think X3 put it more in the ground. Cool. There are obviously people who thought X3 was more entertaining for whatever reason. I'm trying to gauge which film is putting the X-Men name more in the ground with audiences, many of whom showed up in droves for DOFP but not Apocalypse. An over 200m drop and 48% critic approval is not good one way or the other, and will not help the next film out. Saying X3 put the franchise in an even worse position I just don't think is entirely true. Similar maybe but it didn't stop X-Men films being made cause well Fox has to make them, and characters like Cylcops still showed up along with their main star Hugh Jackman. Nor did it lose around 25-30% of X2's gross.

 

[EnDz0n3]

I don't see a Blade Runner situation happening with this film. But hey, if it does good for Apocalypse. Maybe Kinbergs writing is ahead of the time.

Well it worked for X3. Now apparently people are *finally* loving that movie

Someone get Ratner on the phone pronto!

 

[def28]

Well we already have the writer of X3 and Fant4stic...

I don't think anyone here is saying they loved X3 haha.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Havok's death was overshadowed by Peter's goofing around an exploding mansion.

Havoks death was probably my biggest gripe with the movie because it was embarrassing, he kills himself, he wasn't killed the villain or sacrificing himself, no he killed himself.

Honestly i am kinda glad the quicksilver stuff was there otherwise it just makes it stand out more obvious that what havok did was stupid

 

[GuestStar2004]

and will need to be lower budget.

Maybe but not necessarily

for this new cast who was not the main draw in advertising.

I am not sure they were meant to be, the film wasn't just about them

That's why it hurts more then X3 which was a big success even with the blah reviews and fan hate. It was a series high in numbers.

I don't think it getting high in numbers back in 2006 means it hurt the franchise any less tbh.

Now in terms of which movie comes off with a much brighter future in the long run, well X3 ended with jean and scott dead with wolverine,kitty,iceman,rogue,colossus,storm and probably a resurrected Xavier being the ones left, i won't get into the state of the characters though.

While Apocalypse ended with the creation of the X-Men, they are in their comic outfits about to start training as xavier looks upon them

I don't think Apocalypse hurts more than X3 at all, in terms of whats on offer i'd argue the apocalypse ending onwards has the edge there

People still showed to XMOW and as pointed out it was successful dispite harsh wom and being leaked. X3 did not shut the series down, and they had no problem adding Cyclops and Prof X to XMOW. They could have also written a story around Cyc and Jean in First Class but no.

X3 did not shut the series down no, it was just a flawed messy film which was of course followed by the even messier Origins

Saying X3 put the franchise in an even worse position I just don't think is entirely true. Similar maybe but it didn't stop X-Men films being made cause well Fox has to make them.

X3 didn't stop them being made no, but then neither has apocalypse clearly.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

edit:

 

[GuestStar2004]

TLS crippled this franchise. Anyone who views it as a superior film to Apocalypse has to be joking. The treatment of the characters is all the argument you need. Let alone the mish-mash of a story with the cure and the "Phoenix" combo. A rushed half assed character/story wasting mess. The two films are in different leagues. Critical/audience standards of these films have changed IMO. So the "scores" don't mean much. You want to say Apocalypse is bad? Okay. That means TLS has to be terrible.

its been a while since i seen X3, i don't own it on DVD and when its on TV i usually switch over, and this is coming from someone who doesn't mind watching X-Men Origins when its on TV.

There is just so much wrong with it in terms of it being a continuation from X2 and in general just a messy use of characters.

Its funny though i haven't seen it for ages but i still have flashes of it in my memory, like rogue looking at kitty and bobby ice skating because bobby is a dick and rogue needs to be jealous to take the cure and be taken out the story.

Other bits that come to mind are of colossus standing around or carrying a tv promising a very good future for him, none of what i remember is all that good.

I know some have this belief that X3 felt like X-Men because the way it was set up with Xavier out of the picture and stuff leaving them to do their own thing but thats just an illusion as there is the bigger wolverine solo stuff with jean and there is the weaker lets talk about the cure stuff with the rest of the X-Men because they didn't care about jean anyway

And then them standing as a team in the final battle which may look good as a concept but it wasn't done well at all.

 

[DavidHaller]

Havoks death was probably my biggest gripe with the movie because it was embarrassing, he kills himself, he wasn't killed the villain or sacrificing himself, no he killed himself.

Honestly i am kinda glad the quicksilver stuff was there otherwise it just makes it stand out more obvious that what havok did was stupid

I agree, it was totally stupid. It does not make sense at all why Havok shoots directly at a group of people who just abducted Prof. Xavier. He would have hit Xavier as much as the villains standing there if Apocalypse wouldn't have teleported them away. Totally idiotic. This whole Quicksilver scene was... This scene is a good example for PIS (= Plot Induced Stupidity a.k.a. bad writing).

 

[henzINNIT]

Having watched both very recently, I don't think it is an unfair comparison at all. Maybe it's worth a poll. As a big fan of Singer's previous films, I never saw it coming.

 

[First Avenger]

I'd definitely take X3 over Apocalypse.

Count me in.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

TLS crippled this franchise. Anyone who views it as a superior film to Apocalypse has to be joking. The treatment of the characters is all the argument you need. Let alone the mish-mash of a story with the cure and the "Phoenix" combo. A rushed half assed character/story wasting mess. The two films are in different leagues. Critical/audience standards of these films have changed IMO. So the "scores" don't mean much. You want to say Apocalypse is bad? Okay. That means TLS has to be terrible.

110% spot on. There is a reason DOFP wiped X3 out of continuity, it was awful.

 

[NotNickFury]

Speaking of X-3 being wiped from continuity, coupled with the line in Deadpool about the timelines being so confusing, I think it would have been hilarious if, in the new timeline, we got a fourth Kitty Pryde played by a completely new actress just for that one scene since we got a different actress from X-1 to X-3.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I agree, it was totally stupid. It does not make sense at all why Havok shoots directly at a group of people who just abducted Prof. Xavier. He would have hit Xavier as much as the villains standing there if Apocalypse wouldn't have teleported them away. Totally idiotic. This whole Quicksilver scene was... This scene is a good example for PIS (= Plot Induced Stupidity a.k.a. bad writing).

Angel covered Xavier with his wings as Havok was about the shoot, plus Havok was shooting straight at Apocalypse so would have hit him if anything.

I do think there was a better way to do his death scene though. Either he should have died in the final battle. Or they should have shown Apocalypse taking Havoks blast full on and then Apocalypse kills him and blows up the mansion before teleporting away and the rest can play out as it did.

The Havok died is my biggest gripe in the movie.

 

[intensity]

I get Havok. His role was pretty much the same as Quicksilver's in Age of Ultron. A death that motivates their sibling to be a hero.



Jubilee was meant to be nothing but a cameo. I can understand the other characters. Storm was the only that really needed to be in this movie due to what was set-up in DOFP.



I mean many people have forgotten major details about that film. Like Xavier holding back Jean's power because he believed she couldn't control it and Jean struggling with control of her power that resulted in Scott's death. The Jean/Xavier story in Apocalypse was meant to be a resolution to that, which many didn't caught.

I would have to disagree about the sentiments regarding Jubilee being nothing more than a cameo from the start. If you look at the cast list in the credits, she appears before Psylocke and Angel, even.
Also, if the deleted scenes with Jubilee were left in tact, Jubilee would have had more dialogue than the two of them combined.. Almost as much dialogue as Storm. I took the liberty of counting up Jubilee's dialogue and scene details:

Jubilee lines from X-Men: Apocalypse-

"Even the title, 'once and future king,' means the past defines the future." "We're the sum total of all of our experiences, so..."
"Uh um, Dr. McCoy, there's someone at the front door. She says she knows you."
"That was the library. The kitchen is in the other wing next to the dining area." "Eh, Yeah, three meals a day, snacks in the afternoon." "That sucks!" "Beverly Hills." "This is Scott, he's new here, too." "I got it." "Well there is one at 1, 4, and 7... But that is too late." "I still think Empire is the best. It's the most dynamic, and isn't afraid to end on a dark note."

Scenes-
Classroom
Mansion lawn with Hank and Scott
Mansion tour with Kurt/introduction with Scott, Jean, Kurt
Mall montage
After Return of the Jedi mall scene
Beginning of Quicksilver scene in Xavier's car
Xavier's car headed back after Quicksilver scene
Getting knocked out by Stryker's soldiers and waking up on lawn
On Mansion lawn next to Kurt when Jean and Magneto rebuild mansion

Jubilee's screentime in the theatrical cut, if I recall, is 1:06 (one minute six seconds,) without the total time from her deleted scenes. The deleted scenes add an obvious substantial time. Colossus' x2 role had less screen time, as did Kitty and Jubilee from the first two films. (Including deleted scenes.)
She was, it seems, originally meant as a supporting character like Iceman from X-Men 1.
She has more lines than Bishop, Sunspot, Warpath, Blink, Siryn, Colossus (all x movies minus deadpool), Jubilee (x1-3 combined,) kitty (x1 and 2 combined)...

 

[Stan Lee]

I hardly see Iceman as a support character in X1. He was more like a minor character.

 

[Stan Lee]

How was he brought back?

He transferred his mind to another body.

 

[magneto23]

Yet you have actually agreed with me on this not long ago haha. Fox has one more chance with this new cast. The next X-Men film starring them is now a risk and will need to be lower budget. Apocalypse was not the hit Fox wanted it to be or a good launching pad for this new cast who was not the main draw in advertising.

I do agree with that. That's the reality we're in.

That's why it hurts more then X3 which was a big success even with the blah reviews and fan hate. It was a series high in numbers.

2006 was a different time. Those numbers don't mean much. What matters is X-Men was shelved for 5 years. X3 left the series with no ways to move forwards. They were forced to shift gears entirely and start fresh at the very beginning of the X-Men story with new cast.

Creatively you think X3 put it more in the ground. Cool. There are obviously people who thought X3 was more entertaining for whatever reason. I'm trying to gauge which film is putting the X-Men name more in the ground with audiences, many of whom showed up in droves for DOFP but not Apocalypse. An over 200m drop and 48% critic approval is not good one way or the other, and will not help the next film out. Saying X3 put the franchise in an even worse position I just don't think is entirely true. Similar maybe but it didn't stop X-Men films being made cause well Fox has to make them, and characters like Cylcops still showed up along with their main star Hugh Jackman. Nor did it lose around 25-30% of X2's gross.

X-men films, as we knew them, absolutely did stop. They were forced to retool everything. So yes I am putting the emphasis on the creative here. They ran stories and characters into the ground. That did NOT happen with Apocalypse as disappointing as that film was. It just didn't happen. The numbers don't mean jack **** if you have to change the direction of the series entirely.

 

[Stan Lee]

The main reason why Apocalypse didn't make as much money as expected was due to the weak marketing and earlier embargo lift.