Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[def28]

Don't get me wrong I know there were other criticisms besides it being bloated and disjointed. But those were like the main recurring criticisms this movie got.

Now I don't see how Magneto's focus is redundant considering the ending of the last film. The fact that this prequel films are meant to be about Xavier and Magneto. And this is only the third time he has been in forefront.

Cause it was time to switch up. We have seen this all before. Over and over.
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[Stan Lee]

Cause it was time to switch up. We have seen this all before. Over and over.
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It would have been poor storytelling if they didn't resolve Chuck and Erik's relationship. Especially, with how DOFP ended with Chuck saying he has hope in him and how Future Magneto wanted those years fighting Charles back.

Edit: That video was by Screenjunkies. Which we established doesn't remember what happened in Days of Future Past.

 

[def28]

It would have been poor storytelling if they didn't resolve Chuck and Erik's relationship. Especially, with how DOFP ended with Chuck saying he has hope in him and how Future Magneto wanted those years fighting Charles back.

It's old. We have seen Magneto be the villain since 2000. Then they are buds in FC, then he is a villain, they hangout and are buds in DOFP then he becomes a villain.Then they contrive a way for Magneto to go completely ape **** pretty much murdering and destroying everything and all is forgiven.

They were better off having him fight along side the X-Men against Apocalypse from the start of this. Not overshadowing everything, doing something horrible and walking away with pretty much zero consequences. That was just stupid.

Edit: That video was by Screenjunkies. Which we established doesn't remember what happened in Days of Future Past.

...and how it should have ended. The point is there. These characters are being wasted and the Mags/Charles back and forth is now tired. It's making the series dull.

 

[Stan Lee]

It's old. We have seen Magneto be the villain since 2000. They are buds in FC, then he is a villain, they are buds in DOFP then he becomes a villain.Then they contrive a way for Magneto to go completely ape **** pretty much murdering and destroying everything and all is forgiven.

They were better off having him fight along side the X-Men against Apocalypse from the start of this. Not overshadowing everything, doing something horrible and walking away with pretty much zero consequences. That was just stupid.

They were not buds in DOFP, unless you are talking about the future versions.

And Xavier murder people in that movie too. But people never bring that up at all and just focus on what Magneto did.

 

[def28]

Did Xavier level populated cities? Then he's a punk too.

 

[Stan Lee]

Did Xavier level populated cities? Then he's a punk too.

He blew up a bunch of submarines with people on them when Apocalypse influenced him to launch all the world's nukes.

And do you also think Archangel should have been jailed after he was murdering people in Fall of The Mutants?

 

[def28]

He blew up a bunch of submarines with people on them when Apocalypse influenced him to launch all the world's nukes.

And do you also think Archangel should have been jailed after he was murdering people in Fall of The Mutants?

Influenced? This guys mind was taken over as was Cerebro. Apocalypse was controlling all that. Xavier is yelling for help, not happy and asks Alex to destroy everything and to "wreak havoc". Do I think thats the same as Magneto in this film, no way. Or given his past? Definitely not.

Archangel has been murdered by X-force for trying to destroy millions. Probably a good call by Miss Elizabeth Braddock as hard as it was.

...and some wonder why the world fears mutants.

 

[Stan Lee]

Influenced? This guys mind was taken over as was Cerebro. Apocalypse was controlling all that. Xavier is yelling for help, not happy and asks Alex to destroy everything and to "wreak havoc". Do I think thats the same as Magneto in this film, no way or given his past? Definitely not.

Apocalypse wasn't controlling Xavier, he even says that he can't control minds. What Apocalypse did was enhanced his power a bit and Xavier briefly went mad with it like the horsemen. That's why he said "I've never felt power like this before". Cerebro was only used so his power enhancement ability could reach Charles.

Archangel has been murdered by X-force for trying to destroy millions. Probably a good call by Miss Elizabeth Braddock as hard as it was.

...and some wonder why the world fears mutants.

You're referring to The Dark Angel Saga? He survived that.

 

[def28]

Apocalypse wasn't controlling Xavier, he even says that he can't control minds. What Apocalypse did was enhanced his power a bit and Xavier briefly went mad with it like the horsemen. That's why he said "I've never felt power like this before". Cerebro was only used so his power enhancement ability could reach Charles.

The Horsemen do not go mad like Charles at all. Which again goes back to this horrendous writing.

You're referring to The Dark Angel Saga? He survived that.

No he didn't. That version of Warren died, and a new version was reborn through the life seed.

 

[Stan Lee]

The Horsemen do not go mad like Charles at all. Which again goes back to this horrendous writing.

Uh, yeah they did. Storm wanted to be a hero remember? But after that power up she was down with Apocalypse's plan and was acting weird just like Xavier.

No he didn't. That version of Warren died, and a new version was reborn through the life seed.

So basically he did survive. It's like being clinically dead and brought back.

 

[def28]

Uh, yeah they did. Storm wanted to be a hero remember? But after that power up she was down with Apocalypse's plan and was acting weird just like Xavier.

Storm wanting to be a hero is totally the same as Xavier yelling mad and telling his X-Men to destroy everything.

We don't even know Storm in this film. And Angel and Psylocke have zero heroic things about them too. They are villains who want power, that's about it.

So basically he did survive. It's like being clinically dead and brought back.

No.
From Remender.

"His soul died, his mind died, he died. But that Life Seed stuck in his gut regenerated something. It took the husk that was there, of Archangel, and it regenerated something else. It took that dead body and made this new body. What is the body, and who's the person inside? It's not Warren Worthington. It's not as simple as amnesia. That's a different person."

 

[Stan Lee]

That is totally the same as Xavier yelling mad and feeling his X-Men to destroy everything.

Xavier just snapped out of it faster than she did due his powerful mind. X2 established that he is resistant to mind altering drugs.

No.
From Remender.

Still not the same case as Magneto and Fall of Mutants.

 

[def28]

So what, you're missing the point. Which is, there needs to be consequences when people destroy the world and attempt to kill millions.
It's scenes like that in Dark Angel and in Dark Phoenix where loved ones or friends have to make emotional sacrifices that elevate alot these stories.

Not a pat on the back, and see ya next time when you try and destroy the world for the what? 6th time in a series?

Xavier just snapped out of it faster than she did due his powerful mind. X2 established that he is resistant to mind altering drugs.

What a bunch of nonsense.

It doesn't matter what X2 established. What matters is how they show what's going on in this film. Not the ones they erased in DOFP.

 

[Stan Lee]

So what, your missing the point. Which is, there's needs to be consequences when people destroy the world and attempt to kill millions.

Which he tried to do in Fall of The Mutants but was forgiven after he turned on Apocalypse. Warren in that story never stopped and just kept moving forward with his plan.

What a bunch of nonsense.

Rewatch X2. That is reason why Stryker didn't drug him like Nightcrawler, Deathstrike, and Cyclops.

 

[def28]

Which he tried to do in Fall of The Mutants but was forgiven after he turned on Apocalypse. Warren in that story never stopped and just kept moving forward with his plan.

Warren deals with far more psychological misguidance as being Archangel then any of these characters do. He is tortured by this version of himself over and over. Archangel is a monster that he doesn't want out or taking over.

If they actually showed Storm, Betsy, Angel or even Magneto struggling with what's going on a bit more it would have made for some better development and story telling. Or give them redeeming qualities. "I want to be a hero " now I get power doesn't show us any true qualities of someone. She doesn't think the world can be a better place by killing people but she's lets in someone who is clearly a murderer. Why would the X-Mansion even let her in? Cause we as an audience know Storm is an X-Men, that's it. There is nothing there.

That scene with Xavier in cerebro shows struggle, he doesn't want that happening. We don't see that with any horsemen till the very end in a fairly cliched and unclimatic way. Then our villain walks away, unharmed and seemingly fine.

Rewatch X2. That is reason why Stryker didn't drug him like Nightcrawler, Deathstrike, and Cyclops.

Cool, that doesn't help this film.

 

[Stan Lee]

Warren deals with far more psychological misguidance as being Archangel then any of these characters do. He is tortured by this version of himself over and over.

If they actually showed Storm, Betsy, Angel or even Magneto struggling with what's going on a bit more it would have made for some stronger development.

Actually, Magneto was showed struggling a bit more than Warren did in that story. You can see him show signs of doubt after Xavier and Mystique talked to him before he turned on Apocalypse. Warren didn't have any doubts until after he thought he killed Iceman.

We don't see that with any horsemen till the very end in a fairly cliched and unclimatic way.

Which happened in the comic.

Cool, that doesn't help this film.

Point is Xavier just snapped out of it a lot faster due to his powers. It just took Storm and Magneto seeing people they care getting hurt to snap than out it, just like with Warren in the comics.

 

[def28]

Actually, Magneto was showed struggling a bit more than Warren did in that story. You can see him show signs of doubt after Xavier and Mystique talked to him before he turned on Apocalypse. Warren didn't have any doubts until after he thought he killed Iceman.



Which happened in the comic.

That comic doesn't make a good movie dude. Or excuse the poor storytelling in a film which is a different form of narrative. Especially in this series which at this point is far different then the comics in not only character development but who is involved. There are stronger adaptations out there to grab from when dealing with these characters, and development must be made for us to care. They have to pick and choose, which is what pretty much all these comic films do aside from Watchmen and Sin City.

As fans and audience we want to know who these characters are and not just see them as mute henchmen when they are X-Men hero's. What is difficult to understand here?

 

[Stan Lee]

That comic doesn't make a good movie dude. Or excuse the poor storytelling in a film which is a different form of narrative. Especially in this series which at this point is far different then the comics in not only character development but who is involved. There are stronger adaptations out there to grab from when dealing with these characters, and development must be made for us to care.

As fans and audience we want to know who these characters are and not just see them as mute henchmen when they are X-Men hero's. What is difficult to understand here?

Not using the comic as an excuse. As like I said the movie showed Magneto struggling more than Warren in the comic. The turn against Apocalypse was gradual in the film version while comic version was rather sudden.

Oh, I understand completely. Like I said earlier Angel should have been replaced with Caliban and Psylocke should have been called Revanche. They just shouldn't have used popular characters for fodder roles.

 

[def28]

Not using the comic as an excuse. As like I said the movie showed Magneto struggling more than Warren in the comic. The turn against Apocalypse was gradual in the film version while comic version was rather sudden.

But you are only willing to use certain comics as examples. Archangel isn't a one shot villain. He is developed over time and that's what makes him interesting, he is far more of a literal monster then Magneto was here and struggles far heavier with what Apolcsypse did to him. It's not even close. He is transformed physically and mentally.

Magneto literally snaps out of it, end of story. Where is the impact there?

Oh, I understand completely. Like I said earlier Angel should have been replaced with Caliban and Psylocke should have been called Revanche. They just shouldn't have used popular characters for fodder roles.

 

[Stan Lee]

Magneto literally snaps out of it, end of story. Where is the impact there?

It pretty much the reason why Quicksilver doesn't want anything to do with him.

 

[def28]

It pretty much the reason why Quicksilver doesn't want anything to do with him.

That subplot is a whole other conversation haha.

But hey to each their own, us X fans all have our preferences on what we want to see.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

But you are only willing to use certain comics as examples. Archangel isn't a one shot villain. He is developed over time and that's what makes him interesting, he is far more of a literal monster then Magneto was here and struggles far heavier with what Apolcsypse did to him. It's not even close. He is transformed physically and mentally.

Magneto literally snaps out of it, end of story. Where is the impact there?

I know this reply wasn't to me. But regarding the bolded I wouldn't say Magneto just snaps out of it. Charles starts chipping away at him when Apocalypse builds his pyramid in Egypt, before the X-Men even get there. Magneto also sees Charles defy Apoc with the end of the message being changed here also.

Then at the start of the battle Mystique and Quicksilver again chip away by telling him he still had family in the world and he should be fighting for them like the X-Men are doing.

You then see Magneto reacting to Quicksilver screaming in pain when Apocalypse breaks his leg and then also when Apoc is about to kill Mystique. After this is when he turns but it wasn't a snap out of it, it was a gradual realisation he was in the wrong and the only family he had left was about to die.

That's why when Apocalypse says "you betray me?" He replies, "no, I betrayed them."

The thing with Apocalypse is he gets all of his horsemen when they are feeling low and takes advantage of that. Storm goes from petty thief to 'his goddess.' Psylock is a lackey to a money grabber and Angel is a defeated champion and former slave who has turned to drink after losing part of his wing. And Magneto is the lowest of all after losing his daughter and wife who he loved most in this world. He is angry at the world and this blinds him to what Apocalypse wants to do to the wirld and anyone who opposes him. It's when he speaks to his remaining family he starts to realise he is being influenced and eventually betrays Apoc.

 

[def28]

I get the intention, but these three are underdeveloped and destroying cities. The recruitment scenes are not strong. The reason you make X-Men horsemen is because we know their backstory as good people and now they have to go against their friends/teammates. Ditch the relationships with the team, and there is no reason to use them. Seeing them turned should be horrifying, and sad. When you lose their heroic qualities and have nothing else to bring to the table except mindless destruction, there's nothing there but that. This film really messed up there.

With Mags, it does't even itself out with simple forgiveness by the end of the film. It's completely ridiculous given what he is doing here. After FC, and DOFP why should we even be looking at him as a hero if he can't learn from those mistakes? The film wants us to vote for him and be happy when he walks away free. That is completely the wrong way to go.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I get the intention, but these three are underdeveloped and destroying cities. The recruitment scenes are not strong. The reason you make X-Men horsemen is because we know their backstory as good people and now they have to go against their friends/teammates. Ditch the relationships with the team, and there is no reason to use them. Seeing them turned should be horrifying, and sad. When you lose their heroic qualities and have nothing else to bring to the table except mindless destruction, there's nothing there but that. This film really messed up there.

With Mags, it does't even itself out with simple forgiveness by the end of the film. It's completely ridiculous given what he is doing here. After FC, and DOFP why should we even be looking at him as a hero if he can't learn from those mistakes? The film wants us to vote for him and be happy when he walks away free. That is completely the wrong way to go.

Well, for me Magneto had already paid by losing his family. But I get why you think it was resolved too quickly. For me he was heroic in that he tried to change his nature after DOFP by becoming a family man and having normal relationships with humans after hating them for so long. Plus as I previously stated he was being strongly influenced by Apocalypse. If Apoc hadn't turned up Magneto would have probably just killed the guys in the factory and then grieved.

I wouldn't say the ending painted him as a hero though either. Just someone who has been slightly redeemed. That's why he doesn't stay at the mansion IMO. He knows the X-Men snd Charles will be doing good deeds and he knows he doesn't belong.

I personally sympathised with 3 of the horsemen, Magneto obviously for what happened to his family. Storm was living in poverty and Angel had been enslaved and forced to fight and kill others of his kind. Psylocke was the o my one I didn't feel sorry for. But again Apocalypse got them all when they were low and made them feel important again.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Magneto is misunderstood, yes he has a bad side but then he has a good side also, he saved that guy at the mill without even thinking about it and they paid him back with Prejudice, So while he continues to get beaten down he obviously does have a conscience which was likely turned by bitterness by his loss but that doesn't mean he can't have a wake up moment of reflection.