Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[Stan Lee]

Briefly, but yes, she was part of Magneto's brotherhood and, I believe, seen very briefly during the attack on Worthington Labs.

So it's like the Jubilee thing?

 

[def28]

Cable was born in 616, actually. He was just raised in the future.

Which is why I said different time (Cable) and Alt reality (Rachel).

They pretty much told Archangel's story with Magneto in this film. Similar to how Tony Stark replaced Hank Pym as Ultron's creator.

Not even close.

You thought he was horrible? Because he was pretty much written like his comic counterpart in the X-Factor days, which is often considered the best and definitive portrayal of the character.

He was dreadful in terms of design and writing.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Which is why I said different time (Cable) and Alt reality (Rachel).


Not even close.

He was dreadful in terms of design and writing.

 

[Stan Lee]

Which is why I said different time (Cable) and Alt reality (Rachel).

I thought you meant alternate timeline.

What I'm saying is that I doesn't consider alternate incarnations of characters as one of the same. It's like how people view Cable and Nate Grey as totally different characters.

Not even close.

Oh they did. Just read this.

http://stay-tuned-true-believers.tu.../x-men-apocalypse-compared-to-the-comic-books

He was dreadful in terms of design and writing.

Design is subjective. But writing wise? He was written almost exactly like Apocalypse in the comic.

 

[def28]

I thought you meant alternate timeline.

What I'm saying is that I doesn't consider alternate incarnations of characters as one of the same. It's like how people view Cable and Nate Grey as totally different characters.

Yeah you pick and choose, in order to forgive all the crippling character moves the series is making.

Doesn't matter if there are better stories or characterizations elsewhere, only this version counts...

Oh don't worry Emma Frost can be brought back just like Prof X at the end credits of X3. It's ok that they killed her off, just wait another 15 years and maybe someone will get her right.

Psylocke can just be Kwannon even though they didn't tell us anything about that. They don't need to go in depth with these characters or introduce them with good reason.

Magneto is Angel here, just like Stark is Pym so that makes up for all the dreadful choices with one of our original roster members Angel and the redundancy with Magneto. Never mind that other Angel stories hold far more potential. Those do not count because it was written after Blood of Apocalypse and this movie clearly is written with the comic accuracy of Sincity.

 

[Stan Lee]

Yeah you pick and choose, in order to forgive all the crippling character moves the series is making.

Doesn't matter if there are better stories or characterizations elsewhere, only this version counts cause...?

Nice ad hominem.

But seriously, what Apocalypse story or version is considered better than X-Factor's Fall of The Mutants?

Oh don't worry Emma Frost can be brought back just like Prof X at the end credits of X3. It's ok that they killed her off, just wait another 15 years and maybe someone will get her right.

15 years?

Angel is Magento here, just like Stark is Pym so that makes up for all the dreadful choices with one of our original roster members Angel andthe consistent redundancy with Magneto. Never mind that other Angel stories hold far more potential. Those do not count because it's after Blood of Apocalypse.

Oh, no. I am of the opinion that Angel shouldn't be in this movie. I even mention that in the link I posted.

Like in the comics Angel gets his wings mutilated due to mutant hating humans. He goes into depression(he becomes a mean-spirited drunk) and gets new metal wings from Apocalypse in an agonizing way. He also seemly dies in a plane explosion, just like in the comic, which could be seen as a hint that we might see a return. After all, he is based on a character with a healing factor and his face wasn’t mutilated by the explosion. But honestly, I think it should have been Caliban to fill in this role since he joined Apocalypse(later on becoming the new death) in the story and he’s in the movie after all!

 

[def28]

Oh, no. I am of the opinion that Angel shouldn't be in this movie. I even mention that in the link I posted.

Caliban was just a dude behind a desk, and is already being changed in Wolverine less then a year later.

None of the X-Men horsemen should have been in this movie with this script cause they added next to nothing. Not for development or powers. Magneto was the only crucial one with the story they wanted to tell.

They were better off sticking with the ones at the start of the film, cause they fought stronger and because people won't expect them to be developed characters.

15 years?

You're missing the point. It was a throw away line and showed once again that they don't appreciate the characters they have. Nobody is gonna cut them slack for fan possibilities. We all have those, and doesn't guarantee anything. They can't make poor choices like that, regardless if another Writer/Director in 5 years or whatever fixes the situation.

 

[Stan Lee]

Caliban was just a dude behind a desk, and is already being changed in Wolverine less then a year later.

None of the X-Men horsemen should have been in this movie with this script cause they added next to nothing. Magneto was the only crucial one with the story they wanted to tell.

They were better off sticking with the ones at the start of the film, cause they fought stronger and because people won't expect them to be developed characters.

Caliban in the comic wasn't much better but Apocalypse still made him a horseman.

Storm belonged in movie due to what was set-up in DOFP. And if they are really planning on making Apocalypse Shadow King then I can see why she was chosen as a horsemen.

 

[def28]

They had no role for her here, besides filling a villain number. IMO that's not a good enough reason to bring in one of X-Mens leading gals. Should have brought her in when time can be dedicated.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Scott, Storm and Jean should've been the only "new" X-men in this movie. Fulfill the promise that was X-men's "Cyclops, Storm and Jean were some of my first students" and DOFP's "Storm, Scott, Jean. Find us. Lead us."

You can even argue Storm could be the "new" student in the sequel to Apocalypse. As I've said many times, X-men fans sat thru an X-men First Class with filler non-"X-men" team (and friggin' Angel) and an X-men Days of Future Past with no past team to speak of, so we can wait.

No need to pile them on. As much as I enjoyed Nightcrawler's role, he wasn't necessary. Same thing for Jubilee, Psylocke, Angel etc.

 

[def28]

Scott, Storm and Jean should've been the only "new" X-men in this movie. Fulfill the promise that was X-men's "Cyclops, Storm and Jean were some of my first students" and DOFP's "Storm, Scott, Jean. Find us. Lead us."

You can even argue Storm could be the "new" student in the sequel to Apocalypse. As I've said many times, X-men fans sat thru an X-men First Class with filler non-"X-men" team (and friggin' Angel) and an X-men Days of Future Past with no past team to speak of, so we can wait.

No need to pile them on. As much as I enjoyed Nightcrawler's role, he wasn't necessary. Same thing for Jubilee, Psylocke, Angel etc.

I just think as long as they had her as a horsemen she was gonna be ultimately useless to the story, I don't see a situation where Kinberg would have written her stronger.

Otherwise with a different villain and her not being a horsemen I agree. Scott, Jean and Storm should have been the only ones introduced here. Leave everyone else out.

 

[Stan Lee]

They were better off sticking with the ones at the start of the film, cause they fought stronger and because people won't expect them to be developed characters.

There was a reason why they showed the recruitment scenes. And that is to contrast Apocalypse with Xavier. Like I said he was meant to be a foil.

 

[def28]

There was a reason why they showed the recruitment scenes. And that is to contrast Apocalypse with Xavier. Like I said he was meant to be a foil.

That idea isn't the big issue.

There may have been a strong way to do this with another script. But here it's lacking. The X-Men and villain were poorly written and the reception of this film shows that. They ****ed up on just about all except for Scott and Jean. The end result is a dull mess of a story that continues to waste potential of many characters in the X-Men franchise.

 

[Stan Lee]

That idea isn't the big issue.

There may have been a strong way to do this with another script. But here it's lacking. The X-Men and villain were poorly written and the reception of this film shows that. They ****ed up on just about all except for Scott and Jean. The end result is a dull mess of a story that continues to waste potential of many characters in the X-Men franchise.

They weren't poorly written. The movie just requires you to remember details from the previous films for the idea to be effective. Things like Jean's struggle with her powers was already developed in The Last Stand, etc. I made a whole post about it.

https://creators.co/posts/4145770

The reception is pretty much a case of people forgetting details of the previous films due to the series running for so long.

 

[def28]

You are totally welcome to your opinion and I'm glad you thought it was not written poorly. But this film didn't work for audiences, critics or fans like DOFP or First Class and it's not because people forgot details that somehow fix Kinbergs writing and some poorly constructed set pieces. This was the wrong direction to go to continue upon DOFP one way or the other.

 

[Stan Lee]

You are totally welcome to your opinion and I'm glad you thought it was not written poorly. But this film didn't work for audiences, critics or fans like DOFP or First Class and it's not because people forgot details that somehow fix Kinbergs writing and some poorly constructed set pieces. This was the wrong direction to go to continue upon DOFP one way or the other.

Much of the criticisms of the film were indeed the result of forgetting details. Just look at the CBR review.

Once again, Charles is begging his pain-filled friend Erik not to take his anger out on humans, but to channel it into helping mutants. The same arguments we’ve heard in six films now are rerun so egregiously that Erik actually has a flashback montage of Charles’ previous pep talks!

This criticism is very recurring. But if you rewatch the first three films you will notice that they never really have this argument. Especially in X2 where their only interaction is Magneto warning Xavier about Stryker. And the only argument they have in X3 is over whether or not Jean's powers should be contained. Hell, they didn't even have that argument in DOFP where Xavier pretty much hated Erik until the end. That only leaves First Class.

Then you the whole "Wolverine being in Weapon X doesn't make any sense". When X1, X2, and Origin all saying he volunteered during the 80s.

There is more criticisms like these. Such as Honest Trailers saying Mystique was a villian in DOFP and shouldn't be a good guy in this movie. Completely forgetting the entire plot and ending of that movie. The worse one I've seen by far.

 

[def28]

and the other hundreds of critics such as these...

Spoiler

There's no spark, and everyone lumbers through the motions. The apocalypse, it turns out, is deadly dull.

Marks a shocking letdown from Singer's earlier contributions; what once soared now slogs.

Slow, then bloated, and explodes with boredom, and will probably lull you to sleep before you even get to the end. I don't know where it went wrong since the director is the one who made the X-Men franchise super popular, but we all have our bad days.

The movie seems dull and bloated.

Enough already. Singer throws so much mutant at us that nothing sticks. I was almost rooting for Trump to impose a quota.

Comic fans will be mystified. Movie fans will be confused. Everyone will leave disappointed.

For every lively moment, there's a reminder that the franchise is tiring. The genre's emphasis on potential mass death is obsessive and unimaginative.

It feels flat, disjointed, with too many moving parts.

Disappointingly [succumbs] to an exhausting case of been-there-done-that-itis.

Why is Bryan Singer even making this? Does he remember?

If all this sounds wildly entertaining, it's not.

Don't bother unless you have a deep emotional investment in the history of Professor X's hair loss and Jean Grey's skills set.

Much of what makes X-Men: Apocalypse legitimately interesting also makes it frustrating and lopsided.

Now I'm not saying there are only people who hated it, cause the film was heavily divisive. Many thought the series is now stale and boring though. The criticisms were in no way just about continuity details, but more so overall execution.

 

[BeholdMe]

They weren't poorly written. The movie just requires you to remember details from the previous films for the idea to be effective. Things like Jean's struggle with her powers was already developed in The Last Stand, etc. I made a whole post about it.

https://creators.co/posts/4145770

The reception is pretty much a case of people forgetting details of the previous films due to the series running for so long.

Please tell me how they werent poorly written, basically all the Horsemen except for Magneto became mute shadows after being recruited, we had no insight as to why they did what they did. I mean Storm was never addressed by either Storm or Ororo. I will say out of the new recruits Scott,Jean and Nightcrawler got decent time and development. It was just to much going on for the film and not enough time to accomplish everything they may have wanted to.
This last statement I just completely disagree with the poor reception of this film was not because people forgot details of the previous films. It was just poorly executed and rushed point blank. They introduce this characters but then do absolutely nothing with them which is a waste on top of that horrible wirework and unfinished VFX.

 

[Stan Lee]

I'll get back to you in a second, def28.

Please tell me how they werent poorly written, basically all the Horsemen except for Magneto became mute shadows after being recruited, we had no insight as to why they did what they did.

He said the X-Men and villian(Apocalypse). But let's talk about the horsemen.

The film made pretty strong hints that their minds were intoxicated by the upgrades, similar to a drug. They even look/talk drugged out and awkwardly after their power-up. Which was also to the case in the comic.

Storm wants to be a hero but joins Apocalypse after she is made stronger. Which is pretty odd don't you think? It was made more explicit with Psylocke where they showed that she joined Apocalypse because he gave her a little taste of the power upgrade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOdUuGi1BNI

And when they recruit Angel this is what Storm says before Apocalypse empowers him:

Angel: You have nothing I want!

Storm: Yes he does...

Obviously she was talking about the power. Even Xavier fell victim to that power at one point where he launched all those nukes and killed people when he blew up those submarines for Apocalypse. Which is totally out of character don't you think? Look at what he is saying here:

It looks like he is liking the power he is feeling and talking awkwardly like the horsemen.

They are literally going mad with power and will fellow Apocalypse for more of it. This goes over a lot of people's heads on the first viewing. On a second viewing it becomes more apparent. I caught it on the first viewing but that is probably because I've read the story this was based on and thus was able to catch it.

 

[EnDz0n3]

This goes over a lot of people's heads on the first viewing. On a second viewing it becomes more apparent. I caught it on the first viewing but that is probably because I've read the story this was based on and thus was able to catch it.

 

[def28]

Please tell me how they werent poorly written, basically all the Horsemen except for Magneto became mute shadows after being recruited, we had no insight as to why they did what they did. I mean Storm was never addressed by either Storm or Ororo. I will say out of the new recruits Scott,Jean and Nightcrawler got decent time and development. It was just to much going on for the film and not enough time to accomplish everything they may have wanted to.
This last statement I just completely disagree with the poor reception of this film was not because people forgot details of the previous films. It was just poorly executed and rushed point blank. They introduce this characters but then do absolutely nothing with them which is a waste on top of that horrible wirework and unfinished VFX.

Bingo.

 

[Stan Lee]

Incoming long post...

and the other hundreds of critics such as these...

Now I'm not saying there are only people who hated it, cause the film was heavily divisive. Many thought the series is now stale and boring though. The criticisms were in no way just about continuity details, but more so overall execution.

I see a lot of those critics are calling the film bloated and disjointed. It does feel that way if you only look at it from the context of Apocalypse and not what was set-up in Days of Future Past. Apocalypse was just the second part of Xavier's story arc from that film. That Xavier needed to have hope in people and show them a better path, instead of trying to control them because that led into the dark future. Apocalypse just took that idea and ran with it. All the storylines in the film (Mystique, Magneto, Moria, Phoenix, and Apocalypse & Horsemen) all tie in that arc.

Spoiler

Mystique: Is of course obvious. Charles chose not to control her like in the past and instead have faith in her. This movie shows her going on a better path and coming home.

Result: Sentinel Program is avoided.

Magneto: Xavier decides to have hope in Magneto turning a new leaf and still chooses to believe that after he joins Apocalypse. A lession he learned from his future self.

Just because someone stumbles and loses their way, it doesn't mean they're lost forever. Sometimes we need a little help.

Magneto lost his way after the death of his family but Charles chose not to give up on him again. Thus him and Mystique got to him, turning down Apocalypse's offer for a mutant ruled society.

Erik says that Xavier can make him do whatever he wants but of course Xavier doesn't control people's lives anymore.

Result: Magneto's crimes in X1, X2, and X3 are avoided.

Phoenix: In the original timeline Xavier had put psychic blocks in Jean mind during her youth to suppress her powers as he feared it was too great for her to control and held her back. Phoenix hated being controlled, which of course resulted in the events of X3.

In this new timeline Xavier doesn't put the blocks on Jean and chooses to have hope in her controlling that power. Wanting her unleash her power against Apocalypse instead of controlling her and holding her back.

Result: Another aspect of X3 is avoided.

Moria Mactaggert: In First Class Xavier used his mind control on her to wipe her memory. At the end of Apocalypse he gives those memories back. Why? Because he is done with controlling people.

Apocalypse: He is Xavier's foil, which is a character meant to contrast another character. He is meant to highlight how Xavier has changed from the control freak he was in the original timeline.

They both talk about showing people a "better path", giving guidance to those who are lost, promising to aid mutants with their powers, and how they don't want to control them. Which you'll only catch it if you remember DOFP very well.

Spoiler

Of course the difference between the two is that Xavier means it and Apocalypse is an utter control freak. As we have established Xavier is not trying to control anybody anymore. But En Sabah Nur's ultimate goal is control everyone on the planet. Which brings me back to what I said earlier.

There was a reason why they showed the recruitment scenes. And that is to contrast Apocalypse with Xavier. Like I said he was meant to be a foil.

As I mentioned in my reply to BeholdMe above, Apocalypse is basically controlling his horsemen in a way. The opposite of what Xavier does in this new timeline.

Now what is really disjointed about the film is that Weapon X sequence. Otherwise, everything is connected to Xavier's arc in Days of Future Past and remembering this does make the film(and series as a whole) more cohesive.

And that's what I'm saying. If you have forgotten certain details about the previous films the movie will be hard to enjoy.

 

[Stan Lee]

I remember watching Geekvolution's spoiler podcast on this film and a couple of them even said that this went over their heads during the first viewing.

 

[def28]

Incoming long post...
I see a lot of those critics are calling the film bloated and disjointed. It does feel that way if you only look at it from the context of Apocalypse and not what was set-up in Days of Future Past. Apocalypse was just the second part of Xavier's story arc from that film. That Xavier needed to have hope in people and show them a better path, instead of trying to control them because that led into the dark future. Apocalypse just took that idea and ran with it. All the storylines in the film (Mystique, Magneto, Moria, Phoenix, and Apocalypse & Horsemen) all tie in that arc.

Not one thing you have said increases the poor dialogue, underdeveloped characters, set pieces, pacing, redundant Magneto focus and just a cgi mess of a third act with horrible stunts and wire work that many of us saw. These issues need to be fixed, not excused.

I'm glad you liked it but if X-Men has another film of this quality it's done and it's not difficult to see why. These characters deserve more, and audiences are walking away not caring. They need a far superior film now to start moving back up or a fail safe crossover.

 

[Stan Lee]

Not one thing you have said increases the poor dialogue, underdeveloped characters, set pieces, pacing, redundant Magneto focus and just a cgi mess of a third act with horrible stunts and wire work that many of us saw. These issues need to be fixed, not excused.

I'm glad you liked it but if X-Men has another film of this quality it's done and it's not difficult to see why. These characters deserve more, and audiences are walking away not caring. They need a far superior film now to start moving back up or a fail safe crossover.

Don't get me wrong I know there were other criticisms besides it being bloated and disjointed. But those were like the main recurring criticisms this movie got.

Now I don't see how Magneto's focus is redundant considering the ending of the last film. The fact that this prequel films are meant to be about Xavier and Magneto. And this is only the third time he has been in forefront.