Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Magneto is misunderstood, yes he has a bad side but then he has a good side, he saved that guy at the mill without even thinking about it and they paid him back with Prejudice, So while he continues to get beaten down he obviously does have a conscience which was likely turned by bitterness by his loss but that doesn't mean he can't have a wake up moment of reflection.

Exactly

 

[def28]

Magneto is misunderstood, yes he has a bad side but then he has a good side also, he saved that guy at the mill without even thinking about it and they paid him back with Prejudice, So while he continues to get beaten down he obviously does have a conscience which was likely turned by bitterness by his loss but that doesn't mean he can't have a wake up moment of reflection.

Magneto attacks cities constantly and is ok with murderering hundreds and thousands. This isn't his first go round where he leanrs his mistake. That isn't good, or being "misunderstood". He's dangerous and a significant threat to the world rather you look at X-Men 1, X3, FC, DOFP and especially XMA. Charles tries to tell him how many in times in FC that this isn't the way?

If he only was evil in personality then he wouldn't be complex and interesting. But at some point you gotta weigh what he has really done and his intentions to the human race. He doesn't exactly help the X-Men give mutants a good name. He helps the world fear for their lives.

What I would have liked to see here was the complete opposite direction with Magneto. I think Polaris would have been a good choice as a horsemen if they needed to use X-Men. Using her father to snap her out of it and not wanting his daughter to make the same mistakes would have been a stronger choice. I want to see Mganto learn. The loss of Magneto's family and him taking revenge was already done perfectly in FC, which wasn't that long ago.

So IMO he should have been on the other side and with the X-Men, and the stuff with QS and his sister would take the place of his family side of the story. They were trying to tackle a subplot with QS anyways and that felt like an after thought.

 

[BeholdMe]

I'll get back to you in a second, def28.




He said the X-Men and villian(Apocalypse). But let's talk about the horsemen.

The film made pretty strong hints that their minds were intoxicated by the upgrades, similar to a drug. They even look/talk drugged out and awkwardly after their power-up. Which was also to the case in the comic.

Storm wants to be a hero but joins Apocalypse after she is made stronger. Which is pretty odd don't you think? It was made more explicit with Psylocke where they showed that she joined Apocalypse because he gave her a little taste of the power upgrade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOdUuGi1BNI

And when they recruit Angel this is what Storm says before Apocalypse empowers him:



Obviously she was talking about the power. Even Xavier fell victim to that power at one point where he launched all those nukes and killed people when he blew up those submarines for Apocalypse. Which is totally out of character don't you think? Look at what he is saying here:

It looks like he is liking the power he is feeling and talking awkwardly like the horsemen.

They are literally going mad with power and will fellow Apocalypse for more of it. This goes over a lot of people's heads on the first viewing. On a second viewing it becomes more apparent. I caught it on the first viewing but that is probably because I've read the story this was based on and thus was able to catch it.

Im sorry but IDK where you are going with that, I never said they didnt join based on the power he was hynopitizing them with I was speaking of the characterization of theses characters in the movie and how most of them were wasted or added nothing to the overall movie. Also how the movie was to rushed in many parts it was just a mess though I wouldnt say it was a horrible movie it couldve just been so much better than what it was it was like someone just got lazy.

 

[BeholdMe]

Cause it was time to switch up. We have seen this all before. Over and over.
[YT]YvEzdmRpbGM[/YT]

This sums it up perfectly they keep rehashing the same tired stories and people are tired of it. This is why I want fresh ideas and fresh blood on the franchise because its starting to get stale.

 

[Stan Lee]

This sums it up perfectly they keep rehashing the same tired stories and people are tired of it. This is why I want fresh ideas and fresh blood on the franchise because its starting to get stale.

Actually, they are separate stories and plot points from the comics.

 

[Stan Lee]

Im sorry but IDK where you are going with that, I never said they didnt join based on the power he was hynopitizing them with I was speaking of the characterization of theses characters in the movie and how most of them were wasted or added nothing to the overall movie.

When you said "we had no insight as to why they did what they did" it seemed like you were saying they didn't have a motive for joining Apocalypse. Which is a criticism I've seen several times.

 

[BeholdMe]

Actually, they are separate stories and plot points from the comics.

As I said they keep rehashing the same stories over and over, Magneto is a huge villian yes but there is no need for him to be in every movie as a friend who ends up turning on them.They have a grand rogue gallery to choose from Its old and they need new ideas, my point still stands. Im glad you liked the movie and just think it is perfect but it wasnt and the franchise has many gaping flaws that you cant just ignore.

 

[Stan Lee]

Magneto attacks cities constantly and is ok with murderering hundreds and thousands. This isn't his first go round where he leanrs his mistake. That isn't good, or being "misunderstood". He's dangerous and a significant threat to the world rather you look at X-Men 1, X3, FC, DOFP and especially XMA. Charles tries to tell him how many in times in FC that this isn't the way?

If he only was evil in personality then he wouldn't be complex and interesting. But at some point you gotta weigh what he has really done and his intentions to the human race. He doesn't exactly help the X-Men give mutants a good name. He helps the world fear for their lives.

What I would have liked to see here was the complete opposite direction with Magneto. I think Polaris would have been a good choice as a horsemen if they needed to use X-Men. Using her father to snap her out of it and not wanting his daughter to make the same mistakes would have been a stronger choice. I want to see Mganto learn. The loss of Magneto's family and him taking revenge was already done perfectly in FC, which wasn't that long ago.

So IMO he should have been on the other side and with the X-Men, and the stuff with QS and his sister would take the place of his family side of the story. They were trying to tackle a subplot with QS anyways and that felt like an after thought.

I don't think bringing in Polaris for this film would have been a good idea since she had not been established in the previous films at all.

 

[BeholdMe]

When you said "we had no insight as to why they did what they did" it seemed like you were saying they didn't have a motive for joining Apocalypse. Which is a criticism I've seen several times.

Yes I understand as you said because of the power, but as I said once they became Horsemen besides Magneto they literally faded into the background they were just there for power display. As usual the only one they chose to focus on was Magneto. If they wanted that they shouldve used a different villian and took the movie in a different way, instead of bringing in characters such as The Chick with white hair,Psylocke and Archangel only to do nothing with them. The movie had entirely to much going on.

 

[GuestStar2004]

As I said they keep rehashing the same stories over and over, Magneto is a huge villian yes but there is no need for him to be in every movie as a friend who ends up turning on them.

Well that actually didn't happen in apocalypse, he was already against them and turned to their side instead.

 

[def28]

It just goes in circles.

I don't think bringing in Polaris for this film would have been a good idea since she had not been established in the previous films at all.

They had a way to connect her to family here. Which is more connection then Betsy, Storm and Warren had.

Main point being, I don't think Mags should have been the main horsemen seeking revenge for his family as the reason. We already saw him seeking revenge in FC for similar reasons, and it was far stronger. They already had a new family angle set up with QS in DOFP and we know he had a sister. That kind of writes itself.

Instead they wanted a similar motivation for Mags, and then he gets hypnotized or whatever which makes him a less compelling villain. Doing the same thing he always does only on a much more ridiculous destruction porn level.

 

[BeholdMe]

Well that actually didn't happen in apocalypse, he was already against them and turned to their side instead.

There's a first time for everything lol. Though I agree about Apocalypse I was just speaking in general. Im on Mystique and Magneto overload.

 

[Stan Lee]

As I said they keep rehashing the same stories over and over, Magneto is a huge villian yes but there is no need for him to be in every movie as a friend who ends up turning on them.They have a grand rogue gallery to choose from Its old and they need new ideas, my point still stands. Im glad you liked the movie and just think it is perfect but it wasnt and the franchise has many gaping flaws that you cant just ignore.

The only time he was ever a friend to them was in First Class. In the rest of the films he was never trusted by the good guys(X2 & DOFP) or just a flat out enemy(X1 & X3). The role he had this movie was pretty different from the rest as he is no more of a villian than Warren was an Death. And they are pretty done with using him as a villian.

Never said the movie was perfect and even mentioned it's flaws like the Weapon X scene being disappointed. Just saying that a lot of the criticisms this movie was kinda fallacious.

 

[def28]

His role here was like First Class except without the in depth relationship between him and Charles. They killed his family and he sought revenge.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Magneto attacks cities constantly and is ok with murderering hundreds and thousands. This isn't his first go round where he leanrs his mistake. That isn't good, or being "misunderstood". He's dangerous and a significant threat to the world rather you look at X-Men 1, X3, FC, DOFP and especially XMA. Charles tries to tell him how many in times in FC that this isn't the way?

If he only was evil in personality then he wouldn't be complex and interesting. But at some point you gotta weigh what he has really done and his intentions to the human race. He doesn't exactly help the X-Men give mutants a good name. He helps the world fear for their lives.

Thats because of magnetos beliefs, he has always believed at some point man kind will turn against mutants for being different and with the way these films have gone mutant kind does seem to continue to get screwed over so perhaps he isn't totally wrong.

What X-Men: First class did was humanise magneto, in X1 he was sorta like a james bond villain, he had his base, his plan and his goons which some would probably have people be but for these films they tried to make him abit more relatable i guess

Even with DOFP they had older magneto show his regret that he wasted so many years fighting with charles that in reflection probably wished he could get that time back.

Magneto is complex but he still has a conscience.

 

[def28]

Not saying he does't have a conscience but you're trying to excuse his actions and crimes because of it and I don't agree with that.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I dont think anyone is excusing his actions, what people are trying to say is there are understandable reasons for them. Remember this guy had his mother who he loved murdered in front of his own eyes as a boy. Then was experimented on by a mad man still as a child. And all of this after seeing his fellow Jewish people persecuted in the war and then mutants getting the same treatment.

In Apoc he then tries to go straight, raising a family and saving a colleague. For that he gets to see his wife and child murdered in front of him. He has done some terrible things, but also had terrible things done to him.

 

[def28]

I disagree with Understandable at this point. How many times does Chalres have to beat this guy over the head that this is wrong? You're an intelligent character Magneto, learn.

His story works perfectly for him character wise in First Class. Here not so much, and a big reason is cause we have seen it before. He can't just turn in every single movie. This series has played that card so many times in the past 16 years, and at this point I've lost empathy. Especially when someone who is leveling cities walks away scot-free.

 

[BeholdMe]

The only time he was ever a friend to them was in First Class. In the rest of the films he was never trusted by the good guys(X2 & DOFP) or just a flat out enemy(X1 & X3). The role he had this movie was pretty different from the rest as he is no more of a villian than Warren was an Death. And they are pretty done with using him as a villian.

Never said the movie was perfect and even mentioned it's flaws like the Weapon X scene being disappointed. Just saying that a lot of the criticisms this movie was kinda fallacious.

They are likely fallacious to you because you think they can do no wrong. I agree the Weapon X scene was disappointing and honesty I felt it wasnt needed that time could have been utilized elsewhere. Im not saying he is always a friend to them but that he ends up having to work with them in some way and he ends up turning on them,which is nothing wrong with that but just having him do that constantly just gets old is all. I just want new villians without either Mystique or Magneto being in the story. Warren should have def gotten a meatier role in this film. I truly hope your right with using him as a villain honestly I hope they move on to some different villians.

 

[Stan Lee]

They are likely fallacious to you because you think they can do no wrong.

No, a lot of them were indeed flat out fallacious. Like people saying Apocalypse turned people into dust, which never happened in the film.

I agree the Weapon X scene was disappointing and honesty I felt it wasnt needed that time could have been utilized elsewhere. Im not saying he is always a friend to them but that he ends up having to work with them in some way and he ends up turning on them,which is nothing wrong with that but just having him do that constantly just gets old is all. I just want new villians without either Mystique or Magneto being in the story. Warren should have def gotten a meatier role in this film. I truly hope your right with using him as a villain honestly I hope they move on to some different villians.

Warren shouldn't have been in this movie at all.

 

[def28]

No, a lot of them were indeed flat out fallacious. Like the criticism that horsemen had no motive for following Apocalypse(already explained), Apocalypse turning people into dust(which never happened in the film), ect.

They don't have strong motives and it's handled poorly. Which again is due to lack of character. Which you agree with.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I disagree with Understandable. How many times does Chalres have to beat this guy over the head that this is wrong? You're an intelligent character Magneto, learn.

Magneto doesn't think what he is doing is wrong, he is the only person who can figure that out, Charles cares and is trying to encourage him to see it his way but they are 2 different sides of the stubborn coin.

His story works perfectly for him character wise in First Class. Here not so much. He can't just turn in every single movie. This series has played that card.

It actually wasn't the same in apocalypse, it's likely his motivation was over the loss of his wife and daughter and loss can make people do stupid while they are trying to mentally adjust to it.

 

[def28]

It actually wasn't the same in apocalypse, it's likely his motivation was over the loss of his wife and daughter and loss can make you do stupid while you are mentally trying to adjust with what happened.

How is the death of his mother not a similar motivation?

This doesn't excuse murdering and destroying the world in either film. Here it was a contrived plot point to force us to feel bad. But again, it's redundant one way or the other of what we have seen already.

Bottom line. They need to stop forcing Magneto to be a villain. He is capable of good, and can start off that way in a film and evolve as a character in this series. He doesn't always need to make good guys go boom and try to murder innocent people.

 

[GuestStar2004]

How is the death of his mother not a similar motivation?

It is but how many years did he have to adjust to that loss and become stronger for it compared to apocalypse?, he just lost his wife and daughter, he is lost trying to come to terms with it and apocalypse finds him in a vulnerable position and offers him a possible answer to take the pain away.

 

[def28]

It is but how many years did he have to adjust to the loss and become stronger for it compared to apocalypse?, he just lost his wife and daughter, he is lost trying to come to terms with it and apocalypse finds him in a vulnerable position and offers him a possible answer to take the pain away.

But for us audiences, this was about two movies ago. That's the issue.