Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[Havok83]

Has anyone read X-Factor's Horsemen of Apocalypse/Fall of The Mutants?

I've recently read that and noticed that this film took ALOT from that narrative wise. Magneto's story arc almost completely mirrors Warren's.

most have and IDA. I didnt really see a Warren stand in with Magneto unless you want to make a case that he's a character we previously knew before but thats really it. His arc really isnt all that much like Warren

 

[Stan Lee]

most have and IDA. I didnt really see a Warren stand in with Magneto unless you want to make a case that he's a character we previously knew before but thats really it. His arc really isnt all that much like Warren

Here is a summary of Warren's story arc in that story:

-Warren sinks into depression losing faith in co-existing with humans.

-Apocalypse takes advantage of this and manipulates him into being his final horseman.

-Warren causes tons of death and destruction across New York under the behest of Apocalypse.

-Warren's old friends try to reach him and after ignoring their pleas his friendship with the First Class finally breaks him free of Apocalypse's influence and he turns on him.

-Warren is welcomed back to X-Factor but declines due to what he has done.

Doesn't that sound familiar?

 

[Havok83]

Here is a summary Warren's story arc in that story:

-Warren sinks into depression losing faith in co-existing with humans.

-Apocalypse takes advantage of this and manipulates him into being his final horseman.

-Warren causes tons of death and destruction across New York under the behest of Apocalypse.

-Warren's old friends try to reach him and after ignoring their pleas his friendship with the First Class finally breaks him free of Apocalypse's influence and he turns on him.

-Warren is welcomed back to X-Factor but declines due to what he has done.

Doesn't that sound familiar?

Warren didnt have issues co-existing with humans. His issues was that he lost a major part of his identity when he lost his wings. He was alot more than depressed; he was downright suicidal and tried to kill himself when Apocalypse saved him. That set up right there is entirely different than what prompted Magneto to join up with Apocalypse. Magneto was also given choice. He had agency what Warren didnt when Apocalypse took him and transformed him. He wasnt manipulated into becoming a Horseman; that was forced on him

 

[Stan Lee]

Warren didnt have issues co-existing with humans. His issues was that he lost a major part of his identity when he lost his wings. He was alot more than depressed; he was downright suicidal and tried to kill himself when Apocalypse saved him. That set up right there is entirely different than what prompted Magneto to join up with Apocalypse. Magneto was also given choice. He had agency what Warren didnt when Apocalypse took him and transformed him. He wasnt manipulated into becoming a Horseman; that was forced on him

After the lost of his wing he began to have doubts on Xavier's dream. Thinking humans just hate them and want them dead.

Warren was actually willing to join Apocalypse to get his wings back.

Spoiler

And he didn't really try to kill himself. The plane explosion was made to look like a sucide by Cameron Hodge.

Spoiler

Contrary to common belief, Apocalypse didn’t control the minds of his horsemen in Fall of The Mutants like puppets. That’s something the animated series and later comics added. He actually drugged their minds and played with emotions that are already present. If he could out right control people he wouldn’t have tried to convince X-Factor to join to him. He would have just brainwashed and got it over with.

 

[Havok83]

fair enough

 

[Stan Lee]

I think the original plan was to have Mystique join Freedom Force instead of the X-Men. This deleted scene from Days of Future Past mentions using mutants to fight mutants instead of sentinel. Sounds like an allusion to the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C754Jb97I8

Then you had the script which had Wolverine as the drill sergeant instead of Mystquie.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I think the original plan was to have Mystique join Freedom Force instead of the X-Men. This deleted scene from Days of Future Past mentions using mutants to fight mutants instead of sentinel. Sounds like an allusion to the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C754Jb97I8

Then you had the script which had Wolverine as the drill sergeant instead of Mystquie.

Not really, it doesn't straight up imply anything of what you way when you think about what we actually got which was mystique being seen as a hero and mutants getting seen in a better light because of those events while trask a non mutant went to prison.

It's just comic logic to assume it meant anything like freedom force or X-factor, just like Jean couldn't show up in Logan's dreams without people assuming she was in the white room ready to be brought back but no sometimes it is what it is.

 

[DavidHaller]

I think the original plan was to have Mystique join Freedom Force instead of the X-Men. This deleted scene from Days of Future Past mentions using mutants to fight mutants instead of sentinel. Sounds like an allusion to the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C754Jb97I8

Then you had the script which had Wolverine as the drill sergeant instead of Mystquie.

thank you. I never saw this deleted scene. Right, they really implied X-Factor or Freedom Force in this scene. I personally prefer Mystique's role in "X-Men: Apocalypse" though (being still underground and trying to save mutants from anti-mutant violence). I think this is the best task for her character after "Days of Future Past". Mystique in the movie-verse is a revolutionary and really should not work for the government...! I wished they would have focused more on her role besides the quick Nightcrawler scene in Germany.

I think Mystique's realism vs. Prof. X's idealism (a.k.a. white privilege) could have been a great ideological conflict for all X-Men if done right and with more depth than the quick conversation in Xavier's office.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

The "privileged" angle would have been driven home alot better if Mystique went off and created a team of or did something with the morlocks.. which.. Caliban in the sewers is the closest allusion to them we've ever had on film...

i mean, look at Xaviers school, outside of Nightcrawler everyone just looked normal.. they were the "privileged" mutants.. even Beast was hiding his true self behind the guise of "homosapien-face".

I would have Mystique do some enlightening on Xavier... and the school by integrating it better with more mutant diversity, and then have her leave to continue her own journey... creating freedom force, and sort of playing the Callisto role with the morlocks until she leaves them and leaves Callisto in charge.

its just so sad to me that we just got Archangel, sort of got the morlocks.. and we still didn't get the Morlock massacre... which would have been such a great story to tell on film, and how angel lost his wings.

 

[Stan Lee]

The "privileged" angle would have been driven home alot better if Mystique went off and created a team of or did something with the morlocks.. which.. Caliban in the sewers is the closest allusion to them we've ever had on film...

i mean, look at Xaviers school, outside of Nightcrawler everyone just looked normal.. they were the "privileged" mutants.. even Beast was hiding his true self behind the guise of "homosapien-face".

I would have Mystique do some enlightening on Xavier... and the school by integrating it better with more mutant diversity, and then have her leave to continue her own journey... creating freedom force, and sort of playing the Callisto role with the morlocks until she leaves them and leaves Callisto in charge.

its just so sad to me that we just got Archangel, sort of got the morlocks.. and we still didn't get the Morlock massacre... which would have been such a great story to tell on film, and how angel lost his wings.

I think Caliban should have been the horsemen of death. Let Ben Foster keep playing him in the present film and have Sinister give him his wings like in Wolverine & The X-Men.

 

[Frankeh]

The "privileged" angle would have been driven home alot better if Mystique went off and created a team of or did something with the morlocks.. which.. Caliban in the sewers is the closest allusion to them we've ever had on film...

i mean, look at Xaviers school, outside of Nightcrawler everyone just looked normal.. they were the "privileged" mutants.. even Beast was hiding his true self behind the guise of "homosapien-face".

I would have Mystique do some enlightening on Xavier... and the school by integrating it better with more mutant diversity, and then have her leave to continue her own journey... creating freedom force, and sort of playing the Callisto role with the morlocks until she leaves them and leaves Callisto in charge.

its just so sad to me that we just got Archangel, sort of got the morlocks.. and we still didn't get the Morlock massacre... which would have been such a great story to tell on film, and how angel lost his wings.

The movie simply shouldn't have had so many popular X-Men.

If you can't give Angel a proper arc, don't put him in your movie. He's not some C-Lister. He's an original five X-Man, deserves some respect.

I had the fear before the movie came out that they simply wanted the most popular X-Men they could have in their biggest X-Men movie, and it turned out to be right. Jubilee, Psylocke, Angel, why? Storm's necessity to be in the movie is at least defensible because they were giving origin stories to the original team from the OT, but besides that, just an attempt to lure fans who will later be pissed off because their favs didn't do a damn thing in the movie.

 

[EnDz0n3]

The movie really should've been the recruitment of Scott, Storm and Jean, as per Logan's line to Xavier on the plane.

X-men fans sat thru 2 main X-men movies, 2 solo Wolverine movies and a Deadpool, with NO X-men teams to speak of. We could wait.

Instead they piled on with Kurt, Jubilee, Angel, Psylocke, etc. In that process we got a barely-there Jubilee that was supposedly more senior than Scott and Jean (interviews from the cast/crew tells us she's been at the school for 10 years!), an Angel whose arguably most well-known storyline is taken from him and given to Mags, a Storm who inexplicably joins Apocalypse. I can go on.

...Kinberg, Singer...

 

[Stan Lee]

The movie really should've been the recruitment of Scott, Storm and Jean, as per Logan's line to Xavier on the plane.

X-men fans sat thru 2 main X-men movies, 2 solo Wolverine movies and a Deadpool, with NO X-men teams to speak of. We could wait.

Instead they piled on with Kurt, Jubilee, Angel, Psylocke, etc. In that process we got a barely-there Jubilee that was supposedly more senior than Scott and Jean (interviews from the cast/crew tells us she's been at the school for 10 years!), an Angel whose arguably most well-known storyline is taken from him and given to Mags, a Storm who inexplicably joins Apocalypse. I can go on.

...Kinberg, Singer...

She got high off the power like Psylocke and Xavier did, resulting in her loyalty. It resembles one of the horsemen from the comics.

I think Kurt was there to set-up a certain reveal. If you know what I mean.

 

[Legion]

I think the original plan was to have Mystique join Freedom Force instead of the X-Men. This deleted scene from Days of Future Past mentions using mutants to fight mutants instead of sentinel. Sounds like an allusion to the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C754Jb97I8

Then you had the script which had Wolverine as the drill sergeant instead of Mystquie.

I don't think that's what this scene is suggesting.

This is the origin of the Weapon X program. They used robots as weapons against mutants and that didn't work. Now they want to use mutants against mutants.

Stryker turned in Trask. That makes him reliable and a candidate for leading the new operation.

Fast forward 10 years later in X:A and we have a fully functional Weapon X facility led by Stryker, complete with an Adamantium infused Wolverine.

 

[Stan Lee]

I don't think that's what this scene is suggesting.

This is the origin of the Weapon X program. They used robots as weapons against mutants and that didn't work. Now they want to use mutants against mutants.

Stryker turned in Trask. That makes him reliable and a candidate for leading the new operation.

Fast forward 10 years later in X:A and we have a fully functional Weapon X facility led by Stryker, complete with an Adamantium infused Wolverine.

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

So after watching the Logan Trailer, while the movie looks really well crafted and like a great film.. i'm going to feel left very empty if Sabretooth and/or Deathstrike don't pop up to wrap up the Weapon X aspect and tie in the Reavers ...

I also feel like for the last Jackman/Stewart film the film is very bleak... the X-men are no more... and i can't help but feel.. when have the X-men ever really felt like "the X-men" In X1 and X2 the stories were small as were the teams.. in X3 half the team died and the other half were kids... Storm/Logan/Beast were the only adults...

the First Class trilogy is all about the beginings of the X-men.. but we've never really seen the X-men be this great team to let there absence carry such weight... its just all kinda frustrating..

ps... watch them make Omega Red a Reaver... and he's just a dude with metal tentacles.

 

[DavidHaller]

ps... watch them make Omega Red a Reaver... and he's just a dude with metal tentacles.

so what? As if he is more interesting in the comic books. Omega Red would be great for visual action scenes as a Reaver. He is basically without personality in the comic books.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

so what? As if he is more interesting in the comic books. Omega Red would be great for visual action scenes as a Reaver. He is basically without personality in the comic books.

....... oh ok, sure, lets just keep with the notion that all x-men characters are interchangeable and source material doesn't matter at all as long as they have the name and power set...

 

[DavidHaller]

so tell me one defining character trade of Omega Red?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

He's part of Russian's Super soldier program, serial killer, affiliated with the Russian Mafia and the Hand, He's bleach white skinned, he's got metal tentacles that come out of his wrists, absorbs life force, secretes hormones.

what's he's not ... is a weapon X mutant, not a Reaver, and not a random human looking thug

 

[Frankeh]

So after watching the Logan Trailer, while the movie looks really well crafted and like a great film.. i'm going to feel left very empty if Sabretooth and/or Deathstrike don't pop up to wrap up the Weapon X aspect and tie in the Reavers ...

I also feel like for the last Jackman/Stewart film the film is very bleak... the X-men are no more... and i can't help but feel.. when have the X-men ever really felt like "the X-men" In X1 and X2 the stories were small as were the teams.. in X3 half the team died and the other half were kids... Storm/Logan/Beast were the only adults...

the First Class trilogy is all about the beginings of the X-men.. but we've never really seen the X-men be this great team to let there absence carry such weight... its just all kinda frustrating..

ps... watch them make Omega Red a Reaver... and he's just a dude with metal tentacles.

I like the visuals and the song they used but story-wise nothing about that is grabbing me. It feels like we've seen all of that before. X-Men no more (DOFP), military dudes hunting a mutant (Origins Wolverine), a lost Wolverine in need of a purpose (X1, The Wolverine).

Not to mention no major comic characters as villains... Donald Pierce IMO is meh. Missed opportunity as you said to include Deathstrike for example.

Maybe I'll be surprised.

 

[Frankeh]

She got high off the power like and Psylocke and Xavier did, resulting in her loyalty.

She never utters anything that allows us to get into her frame of mind and understand why she's by his side... like at all. Deleted scenes don't count. You are welcome to speculate of course...

 

[2kt09]

She never utters anything that allows us to get into her frame of mind and understand why she's by his side... like at all. Deleted scenes don't count. You are welcome to speculate of course...

It was never that complicated to understand why she was by his side.
1. He saved her in their first encounter
2. He glorified her
3. He strengthened her

It was after seeing him choking his mutant idol that she saw the light.

 

[Stan Lee]

I like the visuals and the song they used but story-wise nothing about that is grabbing me. It feels like we've seen all of that before. X-Men no more (DOFP), military dudes hunting a mutant (Origins Wolverine), a lost Wolverine in need of a purpose (X1, The Wolverine).

Not to mention no major comic characters as villains... Donald Pierce IMO is meh. Missed opportunity as you said to include Deathstrike for example.

Maybe I'll be surprised.

Found this on Reddit. Look familiar?

http://imgur.com/a/ebZ8P

Old Man Logan did feature the X-Men being gone and mutants being almost extinct.

She never utters anything that allows us to get into her frame of mind and understand why she's by his side... like at all. Deleted scenes don't count. You are welcome to speculate of course...

I know deleted scenes don't count. I didn't mention it.

The reason why I said it's because of the power is due to her sudden personality shaft she is empowered. It was very similar to the Xavier nuke scene.

 

[Legion]

I like the visuals and the song they used but story-wise nothing about that is grabbing me. It feels like we've seen all of that before. X-Men no more (DOFP), military dudes hunting a mutant (Origins Wolverine), a lost Wolverine in need of a purpose (X1, The Wolverine).

Not to mention no major comic characters as villains... Donald Pierce IMO is meh. Missed opportunity as you said to include Deathstrike for example.

Maybe I'll be surprised.

As good as DoFP was, they missed an opportunity to show us Logan as the man having the burden of being the last man standing. It's inevitable that he will watch his friends and loved ones die given that he is near immortal. I think this is crucial to his story and I'm glad that's what we're getting in this final Wolverine film.

I imagine the Reavers to be more than just "military dudes". They are sleazy mutant haters and would have no qualms about murdering a little girl or an old man. And I don't think we got that in "Origins". In that film we had these thinly motivated mutants involved in this elaborate farce to manipulate Logan.

What separates this film from TW is that Wolverine had no emotional connection to anyone living in that film.

I doubt they will use Omega Red. Maybe we will see X-21, X-22 or Daken? They mentioned previously that mutant "children" were being turned into murderous weapons. That means more than 1 and maybe some of them are older than the girl we see in the trailer (X-23).