Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 44

[GuestStar2004]

It was Apocalyptic no pun intended.

if that wasn't intended to be a pun then what an odd thing to say.

 

[Stan Lee]

I think the complaints are because the Horsemen *not* named Magneto are mostly mute and if you were unfamiliar with the X-men universe then they're interchangeable. That black chick with white hair, that chick in the bikini and that flying dude.

Those characters could've been any number of other mutants and the movie probably wouldn't have changed.

Which is a shame since Alexandra seemed to do her homework as Storm, especially with that accent and Munn loved Psylocke so much she learned to do her martial arts.

I was referring to people complaining why Apocalypse needs horsemen if he is so powerful.

And Magneto doesn't talk much either after he becomes a horsemen. Scott actually has more dialogue than him in the movie.

A throw-away line near the end of the film is just a lame way of exploring Storm's complex backstory though. It comes off less as an interesting reveal and more of a stark reminder of the better material you'll never see.

I meant that's the backstory of one of the horsemen(Famine). A young girl with parental issues.

Spoiler

 

[marvelrobbins]

I was referring to people complaining why Apocalypse needs horsemen if he is so powerful.

And Magneto doesn't talk much either after he becomes a horsemen. Scott actually has more dialogue than him in the movie.



I meant that's the backstory of one of the horsemen(Famine). A young girl with parental issues.

Spoiler

Your not wrong.the thing is apocalypse was total predicable.Once magneto was
reveiled to be horseman it was clear he would fit the angel role of the comics horseman.and your right once magneto joins apocalypse he is kind of just there.

the idea apocalypse is just about magneto or mystique with everyone else just standing around in background is just as wrong as idea in X-Men and X2 it's just wolverine with everyone else in background standing around.

it was kind of obvious based on who they cast cyclops and jean would be the important addations In Apocalypse.

people are free to hate apocalypse but i strongly disagree with anyone who
calls apocalypse crap like last stand and Origins.

Apocalypse is clearly the weakest of the singer directed films but still miles
ahead of last stand.

APocalypse is loosly based on fall of the mutants with inspiration from other comics,X-men 1990's animated show,and X-Men evolution animated show.

 

[Stan Lee]

I'm kinda of surprised that this isn't talked about much, but did anyone notice the dramatic increase in power scale?

I mean, the first thing Apocalypse does is literally shake the whole planet...

 

[psylockolussus]

Sure. Makes me wonder why didn't any of the military across the globe go to Egypt to stop Apocalypse and just let his henchmen, Magneto get away again?

 

[Stan Lee]

Sure. Makes me wonder why didn't any of the military across the globe go to Egypt to stop Apocalypse and just let his henchmen, Magneto get away again?

Probably because they were too busy dealing with all the machines around the world getting rekt and they didn't know the source of the destruction? Not like there were any witnesses since everyone in that section of Cario was dead(another example of the power increase).

 

[psylockolussus]

Probably because they were too busy dealing with all the machines around the world getting rekt and they didn't know the source of the destruction?

Clearly, that was shown in the movie and not just government officials chit chatting inside an office. Xavier and Moira are witnesses, the other one works for the CIA.

 

[Stan Lee]

Clearly, that was shown in the movie and not just government officials chit chatting inside an office. Xavier and Moira are witnesses, the other one works for the CIA.

Look at it from an in-Universe perspective and not an audience perspective. It's not like the world knew exactly what was going on. Things just suddenly started getting rekt.

Xavier and Moria let Apocalypse take the fall for all that and said that Erik helped. They probably also let Apoc take the fall for the nukes, the submarines blowing up, and the telepathic threat message.

 

[psylockolussus]

Or maybe look at it that there was actually something wrong with those things. Instead making an excuse after an excuse. Apocalypse shook the world, big deal, what we got Sydney getting destroyed, a truck parking with flying metals and Cairo destroyed. And the world simply moved on, never mind that MaGneto had a big role for worldwide destruction. And the nuke scene didn't make sense as it didn't play a big factor in the film as nations were unaware of his existence. So basicly, a random power display that didn't lead to different nations striking a war against Apocalypse or mutants. Just Stryker and his men locking up Xavier and company.

 

[Stan Lee]

Or maybe look at it that there was actually something wrong with those things. Instead making an excuse after an excuse. Apocalypse shook the world, big deal, what we got Sydney getting destroyed, a truck parking with flying metals and Cairo destroyed. And the world simply moved on, never mind that MaGneto had a big role for worldwide destruction. And the nuke scene didn't make sense as it didn't play a big factor in the film as nations were unaware of his existence. So basicly, a random power display that didn't lead to different nations striking a war against Apocalypse or mutants. Just Stryker and his men locking up Xavier and company.

Excuses? It's a fact that the public didn't even know of Apocalypse's existence until after the dusk settled. How can they led a strike against Apocalypse if they didn't know who or where he is? I want you seriously answer that for me.

And it did led into controversy about Mutants afterwards.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Excuses? It's a fact that the public didn't even know of Apocalypse's existence until after the dusk settled. How can they led a strike against Apocalypse if they didn't know who or where he is? I want you seriously answer that for me.

And it did led into controversy about Mutants afterwards.

Exactly, you can't fight something if you don't know it exists. Not to mention they couldn't pinpoint where Apoc was as the destruction was happening everywhere. Only the X-Men knew the exact location as Xavier told Jean.

 

[psylockolussus]

Because Egypt in 1983, there was no radio, telephone, policemen and security to warn their government and the other nations. Okay. In universe perspective.

 

[henzINNIT]

Beyond the explanations for why they weren't involved, I do think Apocalypse lacked some human world context. The new status quo on mutant acceptance wasn't well developed, with no word on world leaders or the average joe. In fact, between mutant cage fighting and Alkalai Lake, everything appeared to be the same as usual. I would have gladly dropped Styker completely in favour of some more time with the Apocalypse cult, for instance.

 

[2kt09]

Beyond the explanations for why they weren't involved, I do think Apocalypse lacked some human world context. The new status quo on mutant acceptance wasn't well developed, with no word on world leaders or the average joe. In fact, between mutant cage fighting and Alkalai Lake, everything appeared to be the same as usual. I would have gladly dropped Stryker completely in favour of some more time with the Apocalypse cult, for instance.

I have a hard time believing sparing Nixon/Trask suddenly meant "mutant acceptance" by the mass global populace.
They drew the lines between Mystique particularly being a hero, which is acknowledged by mutants, and Magneto particularly inciting the fear of mutants, which is acknowledged by humans. Mutant cage fighting was a nice touch, since the last time we had a cage fight, both willing participants were assumed to be normal. The overdrawn Alkali Lake scene aside, the last time we saw Stryker he was about to be the Rick Flagg to a band of mutants and now he heads mutant responses. For sure, some more time with the cult over another Wolverine origin would have been the way to go, but I recall the other neat touch - Apocalypse being conflated with various religions' deities, which both Moira and him expound in their respective scenes. What it may have lacked in human world context, it more than made up for with mutant world context to where the scope does feel larger, which is something the OT didn't quite develop.

As much of a mixed bag the movie is, I can't help respecting this.

 

[henzINNIT]

I have a hard time believing sparing Nixon/Trask suddenly meant "mutant acceptance" by the mass global populace.

Me too... And so do most of the characters come to think of it. Even Hank was preparing for combat. I guess it was mostly just an excuse to give Xavier an arc and delay his decision to form the X-Men. In the film, Mystique visits Charles and gives him a hard time for sitting in his mansion and assuming everything is better, which of course makes little sense as Xavier has access to Cerebro and should know much more about the outside world than she could. Though I guess he could have been looking in the wrong places. People do have tendancies to find information that supports their own opinion.

I believe we previously agreed that this film could have benefitted from being more '80s. Do you think making use of a real world event could have helped ground the film's cultural context? Nothing comes to mind right now, but it might have helped for me at least.

Not major at all, or related really, but I think an opportunity was missed to give Quicksilver a new look based on some "cutting edge" 80s fashion.

 

[2kt09]

Me too... And so do most of the characters come to think of it. Even Hank was preparing for combat. I guess it was mostly just an excuse to give Xavier an arc and delay his decision to form the X-Men. In the film, Mystique visits Charles and gives him a hard time for sitting in his mansion and assuming everything is better, which of course makes little sense as Xavier has access to Cerebro and should know much more about the outside world than she could. Though I guess he could have been looking in the wrong places. People do have tendencies to find information that supports their own opinion.

I believe we previously agreed that this film could have benefited from being more '80s. Do you think making use of a real world event could have helped ground the film's cultural context? Nothing comes to mind right now, but it might have helped for me at least.

X-Men flicks, if not just superheroes in general, have a perpetual tendency to postpone that end of days clock. For a massive shifting perception to be undertaken (parts of the world fear them/other parts wish to coexist), the X-Men and any team like them would need continued notoriety, especially after this event.

The US was still competing with the Russians and began the assault against the Islamic World around this time. While, they covered much of the Cold War in DOFP, this is the one where one mutant disarms the entire planet of its nuclear capabilities (sort of a reversal of the impending nuclear wasteland - like Jean's dream).
My assumption of how they'd incorporate the 80's was to be more whimsical with the setting. This is certainly the most colorful one they've done so far to say the least. That mall montage is still tacky, though.

 

[Frankeh]

I understand some of the complaints and see some of them as BS(the film explains why Apocalypse needs the horsemen like three times in the film people!).

Apocalypse needing them to protect him while changing bodies with Xavier still isn't good, though. I remember Singer or Kinberg saying Xavier was originally a fourth horseman but then they changed it to Apocalypse needing his powers which is just indicative of sloppy writing. They wanted Xavier kidnapped, period, a lazy redo of X2 (followed by yet another Alkali Lake sequence) And I get the feeling the body swap thing was included to not make Apocalypse a time-traveler or an immortal with alien tech.

As for Scott speaking more than Magneto, I might believe it but at the end of the day Magneto is still the one who gets the arc conclusion at the end of the film while Scott is just... there... he isn't given any significant scene in the third act after being so present in the first two. Even Rogue in X1 had that emotional last scene with Logan.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Kinberg said Charles was originally gonna be seen as a 4th horseman but him and bryan felt he wouldn't count as one because he wouldn't actually do anything that made him seem like a horseman so they then brought in psylocke to fill the role, so i don't think the bodyswap was a late addition, i think it was always there but the 4th horseman stuff was gonna be in a different context.

"we knew that Professor X was abducted in the middle of the movie, and we thought that almost counted as a fourth Horseman. And so that’s the way we constructed the original draft of the script. There wasn’t going to be a fourth one. The ‘surprise’ was that Xavier was the fourth Horseman. And then when we were working on the script, Bryan and I at one particular point, pretty late in the process, said, ‘He’s not really a Horseman; he’s not doing anything in the third act of the movie.’”

 

[Stan Lee]

They wanted Xavier kidnapped, period, a lazy redo of X2 (followed by yet another Alkali Lake sequence)

It's not a redo of X2. That has actually happened in Apocalypse stories.

It's a known fact that Singer has read Ultimate X-Men. Where Apocalypse tried to take Xavier's powers.

Spoiler

Guess how Xavier got saved?

Spoiler

They also combined that with elements of Apocalypse: The Twelves which was the last major Apocalypse story. Where Apocalypse kidnapped a telepath named Nate Grey and took him to an Egyptian prymind to take his body. The film just replaced Nate with Chuck.

Spoiler

X-Men go to Egypt to stop it just like in the movie.

Spoiler

They also got the merge with Apocalypse = bald idea from this story.

Spoiler

The Twelve Saga also ended with Jean easily defeating Apocalypse(but without Phoenix powers).

Spoiler

As you can see it was no lazy redo. Just a collection of Apocalypse stories put on film.

And I get the feeling the body swap thing was included to not make Apocalypse a time-traveler or an immortal with alien tech.

That is actually from the comics too.

Spoiler

And that machine he had was suppose to be a hint at alien tech according to Singer months prior to the film's release.

 

[Stan Lee]

Because Egypt in 1983, there was no radio, telephone, policemen and security to warn their government and the other nations. Okay. In universe perspective.

They already got a telepathic message of the destruction beforehand. Though Chuck didn't reveal their location to the world and that's a good thing. Getting the military involved with Apocalypse would have been suicide. Seeing how they were so ineffective against Magneto in First Class. This Magneto's power is on a planetary scale and all of their nukes were gone. There is really nothing they could have done against Apocalypse.

Me too... And so do most of the characters come to think of it. Even Hank was preparing for combat. I guess it was mostly just an excuse to give Xavier an arc and delay his decision to form the X-Men. In the film, Mystique visits Charles and gives him a hard time for sitting in his mansion and assuming everything is better, which of course makes little sense as Xavier has access to Cerebro and should know much more about the outside world than she could. Though I guess he could have been looking in the wrong places. People do have tendancies to find information that supports their own opinion.

The scene did implied that since there is no war in the future Xavier believes that he doesn't need to form the X-Men. Xavier came off as one of those guys that believes in a post-racial America.

I saw that as a Martin Luther King Jr. parallel with Mystique playing the Malcolm X role

 

[henzINNIT]

The scene did implied that since there is no war in the future Xavier believes that he doesn't need to form the X-Men. Xavier came off as one of those guys that believes in a post-racial America.

I think that was the intent, but didn't work for me. Charles didn't know that he prevented the terrible future; and from what he's experienced in life already coupled with the knowledge of what could be ahead, it doesn't ring true that he would have become so naive and complacent. He made a promise to Logan afterall.

Kinberg and Singer talked about how they wanted to justify Xavier's decision to train his young students to fight, so you would understand his willingness to put them at risk. Maybe this idea should have translated more directly over to the character himself, with Xavier hesitating to form this team because of the dangers it will put them in. I would have found this a more interesting conflict, and far less contrived than his "everything is awesome" denial period.

It's not a redo of X2. That has actually happened in Apocalypse stories.

It's a known fact that Singer has read Ultimate X-Men. Where Apocalypse tried to take Xavier's powers.

Spoiler

Guess how Xavier got saved?

Spoiler

They also combined that with elements of Apocalypse: The Twelves which was the last major Apocalypse story. Where Apocalypse kidnapped a telepath named Nate Grey and took him to an Egyptian prymind to take his body. The film just replaced Nate with Chuck.

Spoiler

X-Men go to Egypt to stop it just like in the movie.

Spoiler

They also got the merge with Apocalypse = bald idea from this story.

Spoiler

The Twelve Saga also ended with Jean easily defeating Apocalypse(but without Phoenix powers).

Spoiler

As you can see it was no lazy redo. Just a collection of Apocalypse stories put on film.



That is actually from the comics too.

Spoiler

And that machine he had was suppose to be a hint at alien tech according to Singer months prior to the film's release.

Cool list man. Sadly none of this improves the viewing experience for me though.

 

[Stan Lee]

I think that was the intent, but didn't work for me. Charles didn't know that he prevented the terrible future; and from what he's experienced in life already coupled with the knowledge of what could be ahead, it doesn't ring true that he would have become so naive and complacent. He made a promise to Logan afterall.

Kinberg and Singer talked about how they wanted to justify Xavier's decision to train his young students to fight, so you would understand his willingness to put them at risk. Maybe this idea should have translated more directly over to the character himself, with Xavier hesitating to form this team because of the dangers it will put them in. I would have found this a more interesting conflict, and far less contrived than his "everything is awesome" denial period.

While he did kept part of the promise to Logan about finding Jean and Scott. The reason why he formed the X-Men in the original timeline is to protect the world from Magneto, who reformed sometime between DOFP and XMA.

Cool list man. Sadly none of this improves the viewing experience for me though.

All I'm saying is it's not a redo of X2.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Kinberg and Singer talked about how they wanted to justify Xavier's decision to train his young students to fight

Thing is it wasn't just about the students it was also about Xavier and his arc which has always been his belief in acceptance and it was said the ending with the line "I feel a great swell of pity for the poor soul who comes to that school... looking for trouble" is meant to show his mind set is a little closer to erics now.

 

[henzINNIT]

While he did kept part of the promise to Logan about finding Jean and Scott. The reason why he formed the X-Men in the original timeline is to protect the world from Magneto, who reformed sometime between DOFP and XMA.

He didn't bother to find Scott though... or Storm for that matter. After making that promise he didn't even seem to check on them. If he had, surely he would have stepped in to help Storm sooner at least, considering how crappy her life was.

Another problem I have with Xavier's character in Apocalypse. He's not pro-active at all. McAvoy is so great he sells it regardless, but the foundations of the character were shaky this time around.

All I'm saying is it's not a redo of X2.

'Xavier gets kidnapped as a pawn in the villain's scheme' is a total redo of X2, comic accurate of not.

Maybe add a dash of X1's Xavier knocked out by corrupted Cerebro too, as Singer likes to reference himself. I don't mind to be honest, Xavier is always going to end up sitting or laying somewhere doing something with his brain. There's not a ton of options.

Thing is it wasn't just about the students it was also about Xavier and his arc which has always been his belief in acceptance and it was said the ending with the line "I feel a great swell of pity for the poor soul who comes to that school... looking for trouble" is meant to show his mind set is a little closer to erics now.

Yup, but I don't buy where he started at in this film. He wouldn't have been that naive, so he didn't need a whole film to learn not to be.

 

[psylockolussus]

I think the main reason why Jean was already at the Xavier Institute was maybe they didn't want to redo the scene in X3 where Jean meets Xavier for the first time. Kinberg wrote both movies.