Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - Part 8

[DACrowe]

Days of Future Past ended the same way. Everything bad that was happening was happening because Trask was manipulating everyone. Once he was stopped and arrested by the government, the dark future is changed and everyone lives happily ever after.

Even worse, the world is even more accepting of mutants in X-Men Apocalypse and Mystique is hailed as a hero (even though she was still seen pointing a gun at the President on live TV in DOFP). At least at the end of Civil War the Accords are still in place and now Captain America is a fugitive. So who did better with the lasting consequences there?

To top it all off, apparently in Dark Phoenix the X-Men are going to be seen as national heroes and Xavier will be on magazine covers. Even though Apocalypse and four powerful mutants (one of whom is Magneto, already a wanted fugitive) nearly destroyed the world in the last movie. I get that these movies span ten years apart but come the **** on!

To me, the difference is DOFP earns its change, because it isn't about the government (like TWS is) but about the characters. It is about one character (Xavier) foregoing pessimism during a very pessimistic time in history (early '70s, post-Vietnam on the cusp of Watergate) to convince another cynical character to do the right thing. It is about Charles talking Raven into not pulling a trigger.

The fact that it works on those emotional and dramatic lines--at least for most fans circa 2014--gives weight and catharsis to what we're seeing, as well as a tremendous release when Raven drops the gun. That to me is much more satisfying than Cap having to insert token A into slot B to save the world. Also since that movie's conflict has to do with insidious hyper patriotism and the surveillance state, it being resolved so cleanly rings false and undercuts its drama instead of buttresses it.


... As for Dark Phoenix, I'll reserve judgement until I see it. It could be the cluster**** you imply or it could make sense if they actually are saving the world. It would explain why they had comic books and toys made after them in Logan, and could be a nice counterpoint to the Avengers, as I suspect the world will turn on the X-Men with the advent of Phoenix. But who knows you could be right, it could be a mess. I am just not going to judge it until I see it.

 

[Lip]

We all know that all we are X-Men fans.
But we like different aspects of X-Men and pretend to forget facts that we don't like.
In both sides.

We all get that some fans want the X-Men under fox because the risks they're taking. And pretty much everyone here who wants Disney to take over loooooves DoFP, FC, Logan, Legion or Deadpool. We all admit that. We also admit Fox did a fantastic job with Charles, Eric and Logan. But we've been constantly complaining about the treatment of 98% of the characters. Literally everyone not named Charles, Eric and Logan. Fox nailed them, but continue to neglect the rest. To kill them off. To waste them. It's been 18 years. 18 years. That's a lot.

And they haven't change their vision. How many more years we have to wait?

You realize that response to you was about you ignoring the fact yet again that people have a major issue with the way far too many characters are handled in the X-Men films right? And somehow yet again you missed that? I really don't care about where the opinion on MCU films falls in here. Or how a few X-Men fans hate them. I am worried about how my favorite X-Men characters will continued to be treated. These films ruined too many and I don't want that to happen again.
That is the major issue with most here.

What is going on? That's all the last page was about.

It's always reducing our points to costumes or wanting MCU sameness, stuff like that.

To top it all off, apparently in Dark Phoenix the X-Men are going to be seen as national heroes and Xavier will be on magazine covers. Even though Apocalypse and four powerful mutants (one of whom is Magneto, already a wanted fugitive) nearly destroyed the world in the last movie. I get that these movies span ten years apart but come the **** on!

And Storm too. She was part of that massive genocide without any motivation whatsover. But you know, she is a character of a "quality movie".

 

[DACrowe]

You realize that response to you was about you ignoring the fact yet again that people have a major issue with the way far too many characters are handled in the X-Men films right? And somehow yet again you missed that? I really don't care about where the opinion on MCU films falls in here. Or how a few X-Men fans hate them. I am worried about how my favorite X-Men characters will continued to be treated. These films ruined too many and I don't want that to happen again.
That is the major issue with most here.

What is going on? That's all the last page was about.

I'm just curious about what you mean by "what is going on?"

I did answer SumT's response about I would like the heroes being treated more faithfully to how they're presented in the comics, however, I admittedly have a different perspective from most comic book fans, in that I value getting really good creative movies over just faithful representations. I put more emphasis on the story and film than the characters' adaptation, especially after 10 years of Marvel doing relatively faithful adaptations of characters in fun movies that I've found utterly disposable.

That is what I keep writing my thoughts here, but I keep getting called a troll or dismissed for having my own concerns that are different.

It's always reducing our points to costumes or wanting MCU sameness, stuff like that.

Case in point. No, I make an argument for why I don't want the X-Men in the MCU, and you reduce my thoughts to just "sameness" and "costumes." You also never got back to me about what facts I made up.


... I am not going to do anything extreme like other posters have and make some grand statement.... but I think I'm taking a break from these boards. I'll be back when there is major news regarding DP, but having a differing opinion from the majority around here is starting to be regarded as offensive to others, and frankly I'm getting tired of always writing opinions that are treated with suspicion and derision by others as the last page has shown. What you guys find trolling is the response to an increasingly toxic environment for minority opinion.

In any case, I'll leave it be for now. I just wanted to defend myself a bit for not agreeing with the majority in the X-forum, which is turning increasingly into an echo chamber.

 

[Drexelhand]

It's not like the X-Men haven't been national heroes before. X-Factor - the original X-Men became national heroes after stopping the Four Horsemen and convincing Apocalypse to retreat in Fall of the Mutants.

 

[def28]

I'm just curious about what you mean by "what is going on?"

I did answer SumT's response about I would like the heroes being treated more faithfully to how they're presented in the comics, however, I admittedly have a different perspective from most comic book fans, in that I value getting really good creative movies over just faithful representations. I put more emphasis on the story and film than the characters' adaptation, especially after 10 years of Marvel doing relatively faithful adaptations of characters in fun movies that I've found utterly disposable.

DaCrowe your opinion is more then welcome, I like discussing with you. However you were ignoring the points people were trying to make on this subject over and over again including my own in this situation.

These complaints would be here regardless of Marvel (been since X1) or the costumes, and have been a far more serious issue with the franchise. Especially with XMA which was many fans final straw. In that case the story and the characters were a big let down. If Marvel and Costumes were such a big issue, then we would not have seen so much love for Logan.

 

[Lip]

Case in point. No, I make an argument for why I don't want the X-Men in the MCU, and you reduce my thoughts to just "sameness" and "costumes."

Here:

About costumes:

For some fans it is. That or a morbid obsession with bringing the original cast back.

I don't think we are in an inferior era. The worse movies are not as bad as the worse movies of 10-15 years ago in CBMs, for instance. Obviously.

But I think we are in a hegemonic era where all superhero movies are increasingly straining to look the same, and fans want that. As Marvel Studios takes over the Fox properties, and WB continues to half-assedly try to replicate what Marvel is doing, it looks like the only person who might be making original outside-the-Feige-formula-box superhero movies in a few years' time will be Patty Jenkins. Another way to put it is I don't see WB making The Dark Knight now or even someone like Favreau being allowed to hire such a star presence like Robert Downey Jr. as the superhero, who by the definition of his talent was allowed to rewrite Tony Stark in his own image.

That is disheartening for those of us who don't want all superhero movies to look the same. Yet that is exactly what many fans seem to want.

Yes, if it is good, this is a real shame. There is real passion there. It doesn't look like just another corporate product.

I also feel very bad for Mangold and especially Dafne Keen. She was going to get a star vehicle made for her by an artist. Now that is gone.

But hey, cotumez.

That's only from the first few pages from your profile page. I didn't want to do it, but... And also people seemed to agree with me when I brought that up a few pages early. Maybe you're not expressing yourself well...

 

[AndrewGilkison]

To me, the difference is DOFP earns its change, because it isn't about the government (like TWS is) but about the characters. It is about one character (Xavier) foregoing pessimism during a very pessimistic time in history (early '70s, post-Vietnam on the cusp of Watergate) to convince another cynical character to do the right thing. It is about Charles talking Raven into not pulling a trigger.

The fact that it works on those emotional and dramatic lines--at least for most fans circa 2014--gives weight and catharsis to what we're seeing, as well as a tremendous release when Raven drops the gun. That to me is much more satisfying than Cap having to insert token A into slot B to save the world. Also since that movie's conflict has to do with insidious hyper patriotism and the surveillance state, it being resolved so cleanly rings false and undercuts its drama instead of buttresses it.

I didn't see any clean resolution in Winter Soldier at all. In order to stop Hydra SHIELD had to be sacrificed (because it had become so corrupted), which the government clearly did not appreciate. Which we see in Captain America Civil War when the government finally cracks down on the Avengers, which tears it apart and splits it in two.

I am not trying to personally attack you but you don't give the Marvel movies enough credit, honestly. I think they would do better with the X-Men then you think.

... As for Dark Phoenix, I'll reserve judgement until I see it. It could be the cluster**** you imply or it could make sense if they actually are saving the world. It would explain why they had comic books and toys made after them in Logan, and could be a nice counterpoint to the Avengers, as I suspect the world will turn on the X-Men with the advent of Phoenix. But who knows you could be right, it could be a mess. I am just not going to judge it until I see it.

It seems the X-Men are being more revered and celebrated in the FOX movies now than the Avengers are in the MCU. Which feels off brand for me in regards to the X-Men. Where is the world that hates and fears them? I thought that was what that property was supposed to be about.

 

[psylockolussus]

Even if the cotumez in Dark Phoenix look great, it won't be the basis of the film being good. Costuming is just one of the key factors (though an essential one in terms of marketing and being faithful to the sourcer material).

As for who should keep the X-Men... Marvel Studios handles ensembles and their heroes better. Fox likes some of their "heroes" and more interested in reinventing and twisting characters to something they aren't in the comics. I'm taking the former.

 

[The Guard]

People like to badmouth Kinberg as a writer, but I don't think we've really seen much from just him over the years in terms of film scripts. One thing I take into consideration is that he has done a lot of committee type work in tandem with his producing duties. The films where he is the only writer have generally been fairly well received.

 

[1627523]

I didn't see any clean resolution in Winter Soldier at all. In order to stop Hydra SHIELD had to be sacrificed (because it had become so corrupted), which the government clearly did not appreciate. Which we see in Captain America Civil War when the government finally cracks down on the Avengers, which tears it apart and splits it in two.

I am not trying to personally attack you but you don't give the Marvel movies enough credit, honestly. I think they would do better with the X-Men then you think.




It seems the X-Men are being more revered and celebrated in the FOX movies now than the Avengers are in the MCU. Which feels off brand for me in regards to the X-Men. Where is the world that hates and fears them? I thought that was what that property was supposed to be about.

I disagree. i think it makes sense to make them heroes. They literally saved the world from APOCALYPSE if that doesnt give them respect then i dont know what will. The public has been slowly accepting the mutants since DOFP and this is evidenced in xmen:apocalypse when Xavier states he is now accepting normal humans into the school and nightcrawler can walk around in public without being rediculed, so yeah the 1990s is the perfect time to make them national heroes. Also i doubt it will last long when the Dark Pheonix shows up and ruins their public image.

 

[psylockolussus]

XXX: State of the Union
Fant4stic
X-Men Apocalypse
X-Men The Last Stand
Jumper
This is War

Ummm okay. X-Men Days of Future Past was heavily revised with the help of Singer, Vaughn and Goldman that's why they got story credits. Mr. And Mrs. Smith was nothing more than a pop corn flick. Sherlock Holmes was Average.

And his credentials as a producer means nothing to the quality of films like the Martian, First Class, Deadpool, Logan, Legixn, Cinderella.... He probably was just there sitting nodding his head and saying "that's cool, that's awesome". Nothing really game changing.

 

[SumT]

that last quote was funny. And probably pretty close to the reality

 

[def28]

I don't like his creative choices but Kinberg deserves a lot of credit as a producer.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I disagree. i think it makes sense to make them heroes. They literally saved the world from APOCALYPSE if that doesnt give them respect then i dont know what will. The public has been slowly accepting the mutants since DOFP and this is evidenced in xmen:apocalypse when Xavier states he is now accepting normal humans into the school and nightcrawler can walk around in public without being rediculed, so yeah the 1990s is the perfect time to make them national heroes. Also i doubt it will last long when the Dark Pheonix shows up and ruins their public image.

Which didn't make any sense to me after Magneto (a mutant) dropped an entire stadium around the white house and declared war against humanity on live television.

 

[Drexelhand]

And his credentials as a producer means nothing to the quality of films like the Martian, First Class, Deadpool, Logan, Legixn, Cinderella.... He probably was just there sitting nodding his head and saying "that's cool, that's awesome". Nothing really game changing.

No, that's just what you'd like to imagine because Simon Kinberg told you Santa isn't real.

 

[Frankeh]

I am not trying to personally attack you but you don't give the Marvel movies enough credit, honestly. I think they would do better with the X-Men then you think.

Preach. Again he reduces a Marvel movie to simplistic, superficial terms to make the Fox movie look better. The ending of Winter Soldier isn't just Cap putting token A into token B. There were actual emotional stakes in that climatic fight between him and Bucky.

He complains about there being a resistance towards his posts but he invites it by casually generalizing and simplifying people's opinions to fit his own agenda.

These complaints would be here regardless of Marvel (been since X1) or the costumes, and have been a far more serious issue with the franchise.

Exactly. DACrowe just doesn't get that. The problems with the X-Franchise aren't a bandwagon problem. They've... always... been there. Some people never liked the movie Rogue, Storm, Cyclops. Back then I didn't have a problem (I definitely prefer Berry's Storm to JLaw's Mystique and I won't apologize for it) with it but now 17 years later it's about time they've improved the characterization.

 

[SumT]

thats what fans without real arguments do to deffend their point of view. Its that simple. And it isnt worthy of your time, guys.

 

[psylockolussus]

I don't like his creative choices but Kinberg deserves a lot of credit as a producer.

I just haven't seen 1 film in which the film wouldn't be great without him attached as a producer. He has good connections, that's it and I doubt it he earned it because of his creative talent.

 

[1627523]

Which didn't make any sense to me after Magneto (a mutant) dropped an entire stadium around the white house and declared war against humanity on live television.

But wasnt it mystique who saved the president and took Boliver Trask to jail? I think the public were able to understand that not all mutants are bad instead of assuming everyone of them is evil.

 

[carpenter82]

To me, the difference is DOFP earns its change, because it isn't about the government (like TWS is) but about the characters. It is about one character (Xavier) foregoing pessimism during a very pessimistic time in history (early '70s, post-Vietnam on the cusp of Watergate) to convince another cynical character to do the right thing. It is about Charles talking Raven into not pulling a trigger.

The fact that it works on those emotional and dramatic lines--at least for most fans circa 2014--gives weight and catharsis to what we're seeing, as well as a tremendous release when Raven drops the gun. That to me is much more satisfying than Cap having to insert token A into slot B to save the world. Also since that movie's conflict has to do with insidious hyper patriotism and the surveillance state, it being resolved so cleanly rings false and undercuts its drama instead of buttresses it.


... As for Dark Phoenix, I'll reserve judgement until I see it. It could be the cluster**** you imply or it could make sense if they actually are saving the world. It would explain why they had comic books and toys made after them in Logan, and could be a nice counterpoint to the Avengers, as I suspect the world will turn on the X-Men with the advent of Phoenix. But who knows you could be right, it could be a mess. I am just not going to judge it until I see it.

Couldn't have said it better myself. To be clear I like, and own Winter Soldier but DOFP is way above it for all the reasons you've already addressed.

To be honest the MCU vs. Fox debate in this forum is getting tired. I wish the trailer would drop already so we can have something else to talk about.

 

[psylockolussus]

Preach. Again he reduces a Marvel movie to simplistic, superficial terms to make the Fox movie look better. The ending of Winter Soldier isn't just Cap putting token A into token B. There were actual emotional stakes in that climatic fight between him and Bucky.

He complains about there being a resistance towards his posts but he invites it by casually generalizing and simplifying people's opinions to fit his own agenda.

Exactly. DACrowe just doesn't get that. The problems with the X-Franchise aren't a bandwagon problem. They've... always... been there. Some people never liked the movie Rogue, Storm, Cyclops. Back then I didn't have a problem (I definitely prefer Berry's Storm to JLaw's Mystique and I won't apologize for it) with it but now 17 years later it's about time they've improved the characterization.

I have had it. Like enough is enough.

Like I was happy and jumping up and down in my seat, when I saw Cyclops, Phoenix, Storm, Iceman, Kitty, Colossus and Rogue at the end of Dofp, thinking of the possibility that these characters might get another chance to grow. But hell no, they didn't. They went back to the *****ng past. Storm's a villain, Nicholas Hoult continued his streak as the inferior Beast, Cyclops was "just there" as a teen and they got less screentime than Raven/Erik. To add insult to injury, they retconned Jubilee, Angel and Psylocke only to waste them. Like geez. Its ridiculous. And I felt like they just gave up when they kept Kinberg for Dark Phoenix. It's a loss cause. I don't care if it looks like I jumped ship to the MCU. I am X-Men fan first and foremost. I serve no allegiance to Fox. This series needs to end as soon as possible!

 

[Lip]

I am not trying to personally attack you but you don't give the Marvel movies enough credit, honestly.

With the exception of Spiderman, I don't like solo heroes. I'm not a DC fan and I don't give a crap about most of the characters Marvel has right now. I've seen half of the Phase One movies, and after that I've been watching only the ensemble movies like GoTG and Avengers.

But despite not being a MCU fan, I think it's ridiculous the way some people refer to Marvel movies. Such a condescending way. People fail to understand that blockbuster movies are movies made to be fun and entertaining. And there is nothing wrong with that. Why can't people watch a movie just to have fun?

I love originality and "quality movies" too, and for that I watched (or will watch) movies like Get Out, Lady Bird, A Fantastic Woman, Logan Lucky, Foxtrot, The Shape of Water, The Florida Project, Call me by Your Name, It Comes At Night, etc... But again, there is nothing wrong with people wanting to have some fun and watching something light and enterteining.

I don't like his creative choices but Kinberg deserves a lot of credit as a producer.

He deserves credit for whatever it is he got right. But I'm more than ready to see him go away from this franchise. He's certainly not essencial. Unless we're talking about a movie about Eric and Charles, then I wouldn't mind him being involved. But I don't want to see that movie... I've been seeing for 18 years

 

[AndrewGilkison]

But wasnt it mystique who saved the president and took Boliver Trask to jail? I think the public were able to understand that not all mutants are bad instead of assuming everyone of them is evil.

Which doesn't feel like the X-Men to me at all, much less what would actually happen only a decade removed from a mutant declaring war against humanity on live television, after dropping a stadium around the white house.

The premise of mutants being so widely accepted in Apocalypse is counter to what makes X-Men work as a concept. Where is the struggle? Where is the aspect that the X-Men are always fighting from underneath in terms of how they are perceived (compared to groups like the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, who get better treatment)?

If mutants are so loved and accepted, what are the X-Men movies even *about* at that point?

 

[Flint Marko]

One thing I take into consideration is that he has done a lot of committee type work in tandem with his producing duties. The films where he is the only writer have generally been fairly well received.

You know you're wrong when you have to make things up to support your point.

 

[Phoenix Egg]

Why are folks still in here spamming about how bad X-Men is?
It's highly likely that the comedy version is coming.