Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - Part 8

[Frankeh]

Once again DACrowe completely ignores the arguments against the Fox treatment and the fact that Marvel movies aren't the same, and reduces everything to loyalty to the Marvel formula and costumes.

If he actually respected other people's opinions he wouldn't insert his own presumptions into them, or reduce them to superficial desires.

He refuses to accept that some people pay for X-Men movies to see their favorite characters and they're not satisfied on that front. Period. It's something that's been boiling since the first X-Men movie and it seems Apocalypse was the turning point for some people to ask for a complete overhaul. People use the "not everyone can get their due" excuse but when we're talking about major characters like Cyclops and Storm, or adding a character just to hype it and it ends up being a cameo (Jubilee) after 17 years of movies there's no excuse to be served.

 

[Ordet]

Once again DACrowe completely ignores the arguments against the Fox treatment and the fact that Marvel movies aren't the same, and reduces everything to loyalty to the Marvel formula and costumes.

If he actually respected other people's opinions he wouldn't insert his own presumptions into them, or reduce them to superficial desires.

He refuses to accept that some people pay for X-Men movies to see their favorite characters and they're not satisfied on that front. Period. People use the "not everyone can get their due" excuse but when we're talking about major characters like Cyclops and Storm, or adding a character just to hype it and it ends up being a cameo (Jubilee) after 17 years of movies there's no excuse to be served.

So tell me why these people who pay for X-Men movies and not satisfied must have more respect than the people who pay for X-Men movies and they like them or than the people the pay for Cap/Spidey/Thor/etc and they get always nothing more than action figures?

I prefer have a Jubilee like we get in Fox than a Spiderman like we get in Disney. That's my opinion. But i don't spent all my posts in Homecoming thread complaining about Feige.

So it's true than we that support Singer-verse have to respect other people's opinions but why Disney's fan cannot do the same?

 

[def28]

Alright drop the Disney Marvel stuff and just explain to me how the heck was Jubilee a good character in X-Men Apocalypse.

Cause now I think this is just trolling. You prefer a character who says nothing, has no character, no power and brings nothing to the plot?

These are the acceptable choices you want for the diverse Women of X-Men?

 

[SumT]

I prefer have a Jubilee like we get in Fox than a Spiderman like we get in Disney. That's my opinion. But i don't spent all my posts in Homecoming thread complaining about Feige.

so you preffer spiderman to have just 2 lines and then being dropped from next sequel? do you really preffer this treatment?

you wont fool anyone lol. And this is getting out of hand already. 99% of the x-men fanbase agrees that Jubilee has been wasted big time on this 17 years old franchise. She never joined the x-men, she never went to action and she never shared scenes with all the x-men as family. So you cant pretend now to make all of us believe that you preffer this treatment.

 

[Jh7058622]

I have just one very simple question to Fox defenders:

Do you want the X-Men to continue to be supporting characters (more one and done roles) or finally be the lead characters of their own movies?

I hope that no matter who has the property that they treat the characters with respect. That's why I am on a wait and see basis if he does justice to these characters now that Kinberg has more creative control and not a contempt for some of these characters as Singer did.

Look I will be the very first to say it if it's terrible but It is too early to tell.

 

[def28]

I hope that no matter who has the property that they treat the characters with respect.

 

[Ordet]

Alright drop the Disney Marvel stuff and just explain to me how the heck was Jubilee a good character in X-Men Apocalypse.

Cause now I think this is just trolling. You prefer a character who says nothing, has no character, no power and brings nothing to the plot?

These are the acceptable choices you want for the diverse Women of X-Men?

Of course i don't like Jubilee in movies. Neither Storm (a little bit only in Apocalypse), Cyclops (that is my comics favourite characters in X-Men). And others of course.

But it is often a problem of 'space': they have very little time on screen, i never deny that.

But when in a Singer-verse a character has great space, he is written in great way: Charles and Magneto are the best characters in cinecomics.

In Disney they could give them (Jubilee, Cyclops etc..) all the proper space. I think Disney would that.
But they writing standard characters, safe personality, no doubt, no interior drama, only external life that can be like and understand easily by everyone.
So they could also do a Jubille solo movie. But I prefer to no see her at all that see her in that way. Like it was for Spiderman in Homecoming.

 

[SumT]

I hope that no matter who has the property that they treat the characters with respect. That's why I am on a wait and see basis if he does justice to these characters now that Kinberg has more creative control and not a contempt for some of these characters as Singer did.

Look I will be the very first to say it if it's terrible but It is too early to tell.

Kinberg has already written 3 x-men movies. How many more examples would you need to come to that conclussion?

do you think Jubilee and Psylocke will get decent roles on Dark Phoenix? 2 characters introduced in the previous movie. And Angel? will he get a decent development this time? no. So we already got 3 x-men that wont get respect once again. How many more fails do we need? 5 more?

 

[Ordet]

Kinberg has already written 3 x-men movies. How many more examples would you need to come to that conclussion?

do you think Jubilee and Psylocke will get decent roles on Dark Phoenix? 2 characters introduced in the previous movie. And Angel? will he get a decent development this time? no. So we already got 3 x-men that wont get respect once again. How many more fails do we need? 5 more?

But i agree with you with the poor roles given to them.

Where i don't agree with you is that I prefer have few great written characters and the others relegated at poor roles (Fox) than have great roles for all but badly written characters (Disney)

 

[def28]

Of course i don't like Jubilee in movies. Neither Storm (a little bit only in Apocalypse), Cyclops (that is my comics favourite characters in X-Men). And others of course.

But it is often a problem of 'space': they have very little time on screen, i never deny that.

But when in a Singer-verse a character has great space, he is written in great way: Charles and Magneto are the best characters in cinecomics.

In Disney they could give them (Jubilee, Cyclops etc..) all the proper space. I think Disney would that.
But they writing standard characters, safe personality, no doubt, no interior drama, only external life that can be like and understand easily by everyone.
So they could also do a Jubille solo movie. But I prefer to no see her at all that see her in that way. Like it was for Spiderman in Homecoming.

Even if you don't like these movies which is completely fair, I don't know how anyone can watch Winter Solider or Civil War and say there is no interior drama or everyone has a safe personality. But I'm done talking Marvel here.

I prefer to see characters not at all as opposed to wasted as well. It doesn't matter how well Charles and Mags were written in a previous film. It doesn't excuse the constant poor treatment of my favorite X-Men for 18 years. If fans only care about Charles and Mags then I'll be the first to admit they have it pretty good in the Fox verse. As long as they don't mind redundant themes and plot lines they got it made with screen time.

 

[psylockolussus]

For some fans it is. That or a morbid obsession with bringing the original cast back.

No. I care more about respecting the source material and not *****ing on it in excuse of "creative decisions ". I don't have a morbid obsession with the ot cast. Me wanting them to headline Foxverse films is different from your morbid hatred for the MCU films.

And as you can see, as I am not praising DCeu films (eXcept for WW) and their costumes usually are pretty nice in my opinion.

 

[Ordet]

Even if you don't like these movies which is completely fair, I don't know how anyone can watch Winter Solider or Civil War and say there is no interior drama.

Interior drama is for the most part 'written' with time and space of images by filmmaker.
The only Disney filmmaker that can work with images it was Branagh.

Take a look at Downey Jr in Iron Man and at him in Zodiac by Fincher.
Seems a total different way of act 'cause Fincher works on acting in a visual way than Russos (and Favreau and Whedon) cannot do.

In Disney actors play always in a direct way, with not subtle feeling.
I don't like it, imho of course.

 

[psylockolussus]

Alright drop the Disney Marvel stuff and just explain to me how the heck was Jubilee a good character in X-Men Apocalypse.

Cause now I think this is just trolling. You prefer a character who says nothing, has no character, no power and brings nothing to the plot?

These are the acceptable choices you want for the diverse Women of X-Men?

Jubilee should at least be developed as Falcon. But here, she's been an extra for four films. Her power displays were shown twice and cut twice. Awful.

 

[def28]

Interior drama is for the most part 'written' with time and space of images by filmmaker.
The only Disney filmmaker that can work with images it was Branagh.

Take a look at Downey Jr in Iron Man and at him in Zodiac by Fincher.
Seems a total different way of act 'cause Fincher works on acting in a visual way than Russos (and Favreau and Whedon) cannot do.

In Disney actors play always in a direct way, with not subtle feeling.
I don't like it, imho of course.

I disagree. I think from a visual and acting standpoint Civil War and Winter Solider handle themselves very differently and with reason. Those personalities are not simple and safe either. Are they as cinematically brilliant or complex as say Kubrick, Spielberg,Fincher etc? Nope, but neither is Singer by any means. But again...this is other forum talk and yes to each their own.

Back to X-Men, it's been too long. Characters need to get their screen time, I'm not accepting these versions of Jubilee, Psylocke, Storm or Angel doing nothing just cause a few people didn't like Spider-Man Homecoming. That makes no sense. The deal with Disney is pretty much done and this is their last go around so hopefully Kinberg finally gets things right and ends on a high note. Personally I'm tired of waiting and being disappointed, so yeah I am expecting the worst. Hopefully that leads to a better outcome with expectations low.

Once again DACrowe completely ignores the arguments against the Fox treatment and the fact that Marvel movies aren't the same, and reduces everything to loyalty to the Marvel formula and costumes.

If he actually respected other people's opinions he wouldn't insert his own presumptions into them, or reduce them to superficial desires.

He refuses to accept that some people pay for X-Men movies to see their favorite characters and they're not satisfied on that front. Period. It's something that's been boiling since the first X-Men movie and it seems Apocalypse was the turning point for some people to ask for a complete overhaul. People use the "not everyone can get their due" excuse but when we're talking about major characters like Cyclops and Storm, or adding a character just to hype it and it ends up being a cameo (Jubilee) after 17 years of movies there's no excuse to be served.

I'm sure DaCrowe knows very well which is why acknowledging it is ignored and replaced with costume criticisms or other studio bashing.

 

[psylockolussus]

Kinberg has already written 3 x-men movies. How many more examples would you need to come to that conclussion?

Let's not forget he co wrote Fant4stic as well. We have these films (and the bad reception except for Dofp) as reminders who are we dealing with. And it's quite frustrating, that Fox did the unthinkable by not only making him the sole writer for Dark Phoenix but also direct it?

 

[Lip]

Pretty much everyone here likes X2, DOFP, Logan and Deadpool.

It's worth noticing that despite the "taking risks" part, Logan, Deadpool and even Legion works with a very short list of characters. And even the Z-List characters like Angel Dust got a better treatment than A-List characters like Colossus, Psylocke, Jubilee, Angel and Alex all together.

Alright drop the Disney Marvel stuff and just explain to me how the heck was Jubilee a good character in X-Men Apocalypse.

It's the "quality superhero film". This creative team struggle to give believable motivations, personalities and lines for 90% of their supporting characters. Somehow it's a sign of good writing and good storytelling.


------


I was watching a video about the creativity behind Guardians of the Galaxy, and they pointed out how the core of the movie's success is the characters, and how the characters are written under three rules:

1. They have an unique voice. Fox fails misarably here already. Most of their characters don't even have a voice. They literally say two or three lines, let alone having a personality or anything that could consider them complete characters. In Guardians each of the characters have a voice, a personality, something that defines them and differentiate them from the others.

2. They have at least a hint of a backstory. While I admit that Fox at least tried to do that with a few characters in the past few movies like Storm or Kurt, they didn't do it with Psylocke, Jubilee, Angel, Blink, Bishop, Sunspot, Trask and others. And in GoTG their backstory serves a purpose. It serves to enlighten the characters, to make us relate to them and understand their motivations. Kurt and Ororo's backstory certainly didn't serve that purpose at all.

3. They have an emotional arc. Fox fails miserably here again, since most of their characters don't even have an arc. Again, this creative team did a fantastic job with Charles, Eric and Logan, but not with the rest of the characters. How can this be a good written franchise when most of the characters have no substance?


The X-Men franchise, the way it is right now, is not an ensamble. At least not a good one. And it should be, that's the problem.

 

[kevork89]

*sigh*

It’s always a fight going on in here. Why can’t both sides just respect each other’s opinions and move on. End of the day we got a movie coming out in November which no ones knows is going to be good or bad. And I feel like people need to just wait for that until they should make their decision on the movie. And eventually X-Men is going back to Marvel. So for right now the Fox fans still have some movies coming and the Marvel fans have the return of X-Men to Marvel eventually. Win win. So can people stop arguing.

Also I’m in the boat where I don’t care what studio has it I just want a quality film with a good story and good character development. If Fox or Marvel give me that I’ll be happy.

 

[def28]

Probably cause despite the front, I don't think this really comes down to Marvel vs Fox here. Outside of the deal of course. This is X-Men fans vs X-Men fans when it comes down to it. If the X-Men were confirmed staying at Fox these debates would still be happening without Marvel in the equation. What's the most interesting, is how different things were post X3.

Ultimately you don't see people on the Logan, Legion and Deadpool boards having these lengthy arguments. That kind of says something. Instead you'll get the occasional X-Men board poster blasting Deadpool because of it's humor.

 

[psylockolussus]

*sigh*

It’s always a fight going on in here. Why can’t both sides just respect each other’s opinions and move on. End of the day we got a movie coming out in November which no ones knows is going to be good or bad. And I feel like people need to just wait for that until they should make their decision on the movie. And eventually X-Men is going back to Marvel. So for right now the Fox fans still have some movies coming and the Marvel fans have the return of X-Men to Marvel eventually. Win win. So can people stop arguing.

Also I’m in the boat where I don’t care what studio has it I just want a quality film with a good story and good character development. If Fox or Marvel give me that I’ll be happy.

Simon Kinberg's track record gives me an idea if it's going to be bad or not. Same thing with the Transformers and Snyder's DC films.

And no, X-Men fans have the right to complain with these upcoming Fox movies if they don't see something that they don't like. For example, if Gambit, Lilandra, Sinister, New Mutants, Dazzler, all sucked in their upcoming films. It is still a disrespect to the source material. MCU won't likely touch those characters for a while. Dark Phoenix sucking would hurt the X-Men even if there's a MCU X-Men film on the horizon.

 

[Lip]

Simon Kinberg's track record gives me an idea if it's going to be bad or not.

All the three X-Men movies he wrote suffer from the same problem we're constantly talking about here: treating characters not named Logan, Eric and Charles like ****, including DoFP (Storm, Kitty, Rogue, Alex, Bobby, Colossus, Blink, Bishop, Warpath, Sunspot, Toad and even Scott and Jean). The problem is his vision.

Oh, let's not forget they wanted to put Psylocke and Cable in the future of DoFP. Thank God Deadpool grabbed one of them. The other one unfortunately couldn't escape for long and was ruined in XMA.

 

[def28]

Kinberg definitely has a lot to prove.

 

[Lip]

Hmmm... I think all those years was enough to me.

 

[Ordet]

------


I was watching a video about the creativity behind Guardians of the Galaxy, and they pointed out how the core of the movie's success is the characters, and how the characters are written under three rules:

1. They have an unique voice. Fox fails misarably here already. Most of their characters don't even have a voice. They literally say two or three lines, let alone having a personality or anything that could consider them complete characters. In Guardians each of the characters have a voice, a personality, something that defines them and differentiate them from the others.

2. They have at least a hint of a backstory. While I admit that Fox at least tried to do that with a few characters in the past few movies like Storm or Kurt, they didn't do it with Psylocke, Jubilee, Angel, Blink, Bishop, Sunspot, Trask and others. And in GoTG their backstory serves a purpose. It serves to enlighten the characters, to make us relate to them and understand their motivations. Kurt and Ororo's backstory certainly didn't serve that purpose at all.

3. They have an emotional arc. Fox fails miserably here again, since most of their characters don't even have an arc. Again, this creative team did a fantastic job with Charles, Eric and Logan, but not with the rest of the characters. How can this be a good written franchise when most of the characters have no substance?


The X-Men franchise, the way it is right now, is not an ensamble. At least not a good one. And it should be, that's the problem.

If you ask Rob Liefeld how make a good art it would be quite normal he teach you his art.

It's a logical fail. 'Cause for first you shoudn't go to Liefeld if you wanna make good art.

And then it's quite funny you say Fox fails miserably in every point but you have to admit that they make fantastic job with the characters they wanted to develope.
That is like to say that Claremont made a bad works 'cause Beast (a founding member) was not a key part of his roaster.

But again: it's never a matter of quantity (where Disney is great), but quality (where Disney fails).

Speaking about quantity of lines only show how little the cinema's language is undestood.

Speaking about backstory is like to cancel several cinema masterpieces.

and the difference in Guardian characterization are very superficial, thery are like the Masks in the Commedia dell'arte.
And a part of StarLord, the others serve only as comedy partners

(and i like the first Guardians of Galaxy more than X1 and X3 and quite at the same level of First Class and Apocalypse. But for different reason)

 

[Phoenix Egg]

The way fans are urging all comic book properties to be made by Marvel Studios in their house style? The same way fans want the DC Universe to look pretty much like the MCU (which is one of the many mistakes that WB actually pursued to disaster in Justice League, but that is on the studio there)?

No, there is a genuine desire for a hegemony in fandom now. This is slightly unrelated, but I think it was partially the reason for the intense vocal minority of hatred for The Last Jedi, because unlike The Force Awakens, it tried not to look just like the original movies that fans have grown accustomed to as "traditional Star Wars."

And while I dread Kinberg as director, I have really enjoyed Deadpool, Logan, and the prospect of New Mutants and X-Force, and other risks that if we are being honest are impossible to make in a movie at MCU. That is why some of us are so lukewarm to all the cheerleading for the MCU X-Men around here. I get the MCU will make some characters more faithfully adapted, but I honestly do not think this is going to go the way some fans really want, and the result will be more superhero movies having the MCU sameness.

P.S. I do think the Mystique is overblown by fans at least partially because of the strong dislike for Jennifer Lawrence who did use her star power to at least negatively affect XMA (I actually think DOFP made perfect sense for the character). Yes, she is on the good side now but part of the fun of time travel stories is to change history. With her being introduced as Charles Xavier's adopted sister in XFC, that trilogy always was meant to aim her more toward being a sympathetic anti-hero than a true-blue (heh) villain.

Is she evil in the comics? Yes (although she has also been on X-Men from time to time). But you know who also was once evil in the comics? Emma Frost. Then they incorporated her in the X-Men and she eventually became team leader. Rogue was introduced as a villain. This kind of switching sides has history in the comics, but because it is one who hasn't done it to this extent on the page, and it was at least partially fueled by the actress' star appeal (although not all as the seeds were placed for it in XFC), fans over emphasize the "sacrilege" of it.

I wouldn't even say Mystique is evil in the comics, more just in-and-out-of-universe annoying.

"Oh looks like it's time to be on a team and betray everyone for what seems like the 50th time".

That character is so stuck in place that it's crazy.

 

[kevork89]

Simon Kinberg's track record gives me an idea if it's going to be bad or not. Same thing with the Transformers and Snyder's DC films.

And no, X-Men fans have the right to complain with these upcoming Fox movies if they don't see something that they don't like. For example, if Gambit, Lilandra, Sinister, New Mutants, Dazzler, all sucked in their upcoming films. It is still a disrespect to the source material. MCU won't likely touch those characters for a while. Dark Phoenix sucking would hurt the X-Men even if there's a MCU X-Men film on the horizon.

Strongly disagree. We’ve all said how good Marvel are have we not? Discussed in length how they can take Z list characters and make them great. Well there’s nothing suggesting that even if Fox do bad with these characters then Marvel can’t do good with them. What makes you think Marvel won’t use these characters? I really don’t see Dark Phoenix not being well received having any effect on Marvel and their plans with the future of the X-Men. All they need to do is reboot it.