The Winter Soldier "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread - Part 1

[cherokeesam]

No, that's not clear at all. You have absolutely nothing to back that up. She wasn't filming those particular scenes with him, so what? Making assumptions about anything based on a few out of context shots is ridiculous. Especially since the first Avengers movie made a big deal of the Clint/Natasha connection and Scarlett herself came up with the idea for the arrow necklace. Meanwhile, Cap and BW's dynamic was much more of a "buddy cop" one. Sorry, but your comments aren't supported by the available evidence, period.

If Joss wanted there to be a Widow-Hawkeye angle, Scarjo would be filming with Renner in Italy. Instead, she's filming with Evans in Korea. I'm sorry, tell me again how there's no evidence to support CapWidow over HawkWidow....? And where did you get the idea that Scarjo came up with the idea of the arrow necklace? Linkplzkthx. TWS made absolutely no hoopla about that necklace at all, and Hawkeye wasn't even mentioned in the movie. Making assumpions about anything based on a few out of context shots from TWS is ridiculous.

 

[metaphysician]

Why should we assume that there can only be one action sequence, either Widow/Cap or Widow/Hawkeye, and if there is one there is clearly nothing of the other?

 

[cherokeesam]

Why should we assume that there can only be one action sequence, either Widow/Cap or Widow/Hawkeye, and if there is one there is clearly nothing of the other?

Where are the set reports or pics to prove otherwise? Scarjo's window of opportunity is very limited here, before she starts "showing." If Scarjo was filming in London or Italy or South Africa, we would've heard something by now. We haven't.

 

[Xeno]

Never liked the fact she's related to Peggy and don't care for the actress they cast. If they are going to bother giving Cap some romance type of thing in the 3rd film, I'd rather they built off his relationship with Natasha as their dynamic is interesting and minus weird baggage.

The Peggy/Sharon relationship has always been one of the strangest (and worst) aspects of any Marvel Comics romance. People can claim that it's not bizarre and skanky all they want but the fact of it is that a man having a relationship with his first love's sister/niece/whatever is extremely distasteful. The argument that Steve met Sharon before he knew she was related to Peggy does not make the situation any better. Normal people (aka the GA) are going to see it for what it is: a very freaky case of substituting one female relative for another in Steve's love life. It's twisted and the writers of the film series should not go there.

On top of that objection, there was absolutely no chemistry between Van Camp and Chris Evans. None. Evans is one of those actors who seems to have easy on screen rapport with just about anyone, but with her it just was not there. Van Camp did little to impress in any of her scenes, with or without Chris. I would argue that no one would have noticed her at all if not for the fact that she was playing Sharon Carter. Had no one known that she would have drawn as much attention as SHIELD Tech #1. Or maybe less; that guy really sold his fear in that showdown with Rumlow.

Actors can do a lot in five minutes. Mackie in that 2 minute opening scene with Evans had about 1000 times more chemistry. Steve and Peggy had it from the first scenes even when they didn't really share any dialogue.

Sharon in the scenario knows who Steve is so it never stops being icky for me. Add to that - that in the comics the relationship winds up with her brainwashed and killing him finishing off what Crossbones started (Seeing Sharon and Crossbones share a scene together was skin crawling for all of it's future implications), then later thinking she's saving him by shooting his son - a child - in the throat will never not be UGH.

I agree with every word of this. Great post.

In AoU, who does Widow team up with? Cap. (Noteworthy: *none* of the other Avengers are shown to be on the Korea assignment with the two of them.) Whose Harley is she driving? Cap's. Whose shield is she carrying? Cap's.

TWS built up a *lot* of chemistry between Steve and Natasha. They shared more than one kiss in the movie. There's a lot of "will they-won't they" sexual tension brewing in the dialogue and wistful glances exchanged. Seems pretty clear from the Steve-Natasha team-up in AoU that Joss is rooting for CapWidow slashfic as well.

It's extremely premature to make any claims about Natasha and Steve's relationship in AOU. Some of us may see the insane amounts of chemistry between them in TWS but that doesn't mean that the writers are going to do anything more than shrug that off in favor of going in another direction. Personally, I think that Marvel should recognize the good thing it has in Chris & Scarlett's brilliant on screen dynamic but I don't see that happening.

I've read rumors elsewhere that Whedon is pushing some absurd Hulk/Widow relationship for AOU. Scarlett and the writers of TWS hinted at a further relationship with Clint Barton, though, so there's no telling what's true at this point.

By the by, it doesn't really make a difference whether Scarlett starts to show or not. Kevin Feige said that his goal is to make it so that in a year's time everyone is marveling that the Black Widow never looked pregnant at all during the filming. I took that to mean that Marvel intends to use doubles and the sort of digital effects that allowed them to make it appear that RDJ did complex stunts by superimposing his face over a stunt man's head. By using those digital/photographic tricks of the trade, they can keep Scarlett working a lot longer than would otherwise be possible.

 

[Sneakronicity]

If Joss wanted there to be a Widow-Hawkeye angle, Scarjo would be filming with Renner in Italy. Instead, she's filming with Evans in Korea. I'm sorry, tell me again how there's no evidence to support CapWidow over HawkWidow....? And where did you get the idea that Scarjo came up with the idea of the arrow necklace? Linkplzkthx. TWS made absolutely no hoopla about that necklace at all, and Hawkeye wasn't even mentioned in the movie. Making assumpions about anything based on a few out of context shots from TWS is ridiculous.

This isn't an assumption. In a recent interview on Rotten Tomatoes (I'm not sure what the policy is on direct links, but I can find it if need be) Scarlett was asked about the necklace and she said that it was her own nod to Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye. There was also a podcast with the Russo brothers where they say that it was Scarlett's choice as a character, and that her relationship with Hawkeye will become very clear in AoU.

And I'm curious, but isn't it just Scarlett's stunt double filming in South Korea? I'm pretty sure she wasn't there herself at all and that the majority of her filming will probably be done in London.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I'd say there's a 15% chance of anything happening between Nat and Steve.

 

[metaphysician]

Where are the set reports or pics to prove otherwise? Scarjo's window of opportunity is very limited here, before she starts "showing." If Scarjo was filming in London or Italy or South Africa, we would've heard something by now. We haven't.

Scarjo isn't limited to filming now; she can also film after she's delivered. Which IIRC, Feige has said she will be doing; they are splitting her filming.

And that's leaving aside indoor/green screen filming, of which we would see dick.

 

[cherokeesam]

This isn't an assumption. In a recent interview on Rotten Tomatoes (I'm not sure what the policy is on direct links, but I can find it if need be) Scarlett was asked about the necklace and she said that it was her own nod to Jeremy Renner's Hawkeye. There was also a podcast with the Russo brothers where they say that it was Scarlett's choice as a character, and that her relationship with Hawkeye will become very clear in AoU.

And I'm curious, but isn't it just Scarlett's stunt double filming in South Korea? I'm pretty sure she wasn't there herself at all and that the majority of her filming will probably be done in London.

Okay, that's the first I've heard of a Rotten Tomatoes interview, but I'll take your word for it. If you're right about it, then Scarjo is pretty explicit that HawkWidow is still a thing. We'll see.

Scarjo isn't limited to filming now; she can also film after she's delivered. Which IIRC, Feige has said she will be doing; they are splitting her filming.

And that's leaving aside indoor/green screen filming, of which we would see dick.

I....don't really want to see that. Save it for the inevitable porn parody.

 

[Raiden]

I think this cover tells us who BW will end up with in the end:

 

[Xeno]

I think this cover tells us who BW will end up with in the end:

Spoiler

The only relationship Natasha has with the Winter Soldier in the MCU comes via the two bullets he put through her body. There is no indication that they will ever have more than that.

 

[Minxie]

^^ There's plenty of openings for the MCU to explore that relationship, tho. They didn't actually shut the door on her ever knowing him on a more friendly/personal level before "Odessa" happened... considering Natasha could have easily been omitting that information from Steve.

There's little things in the movie like the way she had to catch her breath when Steve said that "he had a metal arm" line - that was an uncharacteristically uncontrolled reaction from Natasha and implied to me that there's more to the story than just "he shot her one time 5 years ago". I also thought the look on her face when they were captured by the Strike Team and Steve was talking about Bucky was very telling, as well as that line "none of that's your fault." It leaves an opening where they could reveal later that she knows the kind of brainwashing Bucky has gone through because she's experienced it herself and has also seen it being done to him.

I've also had fun discussing the whole causeway fight sequence with people because there's a lot going on there that's rich for interpretation. Natasha surprises him and cracks his goggles, which begins the process of the Winter Soldier being unmasked. Thematically, she "opens his eyes" and the irritation he shows is the first display of emotion we ever see from him. His first line of dialogue is in Russian and specifically about her, and he even decides he'll leave the bigger threat of Steve to the other hitmen so he can "handle her personally" as it were. And Natasha actually smiled over shoulder as she was running away, like she knew that she'd successfully gotten his attention and was confident that he would come after her rather than go after Steve. Symbolically, all of this is actually pretty relevant because it echoes the way Natasha was someone who touched on Bucky's humanity in the comics and led to him questioning orders and exerting independence for the first time (before they were quickly separated and he was wiped and thrown into cryo of course).

And finally we have all the little Soviet mentions from Natasha and the indications that Bucky was at some point under Russian control (the Red Star, his weapons, speaking Russian, the soldier in his flashback wearing a Russian WWII era uniform, etc). Whether it was the Russians/Soviets alone or some kind of "Russian/Soviet Hydra branch" and if they're the same people who Natasha once worked for remains to be seen. But it's notable that the file on Bucky that Natasha was able to procure came from Kiev and that's where the movie ended. (Also it's very very interesting that the Winter Soldier is someone "the intelligence community doesn't believe exists" and Natasha has supposedly tried going after him before and hit dead ends, but then she can just call in a favor and produce an extensive file on him easily. Like she knew exactly where to look to get official records on him.) I would bet anything that it means the Soviet connection to Bucky will be explored in more detail in Cap 3, and unless they don't plan on putting Natasha in the sequel, it's very likely that they're going to link her and Bucky. Imo it just seems like a natural storytelling choice for the Russos/Markus/McFeely to take. Also I've gathered that Joe Russo likes Bucky/Natasha as a pairing so he would probably be all for it, if Feige gives the green light.

Cap 2 was already chock full of other things so it was pretty logical that they didn't touch on the shared BuckyNat backstory this time around. Even Sebastian Stan said, when asked about it, that this was an introductory story for the Winter Soldier, but there are little things in the movie that comic readers will recognize and it was just the "tip of the iceberg" when it comes to Bucky and Natasha's ties.
Of course it doesn't mean they *will* go ahead with BuckyNat in the MCU. There's just enough hints in Cap 2 that they could if they wanted to - it hasn't been ruled out by any means.

And on another note, even if they end up saying that they never knew each other before Odessa, that he never trained her or anything, you still have these two characters who have a lot in common with each other and the potential for understanding and relating to each other in a very intimate way. That's the basis for their relationship in the comics anyway, and they don't even need to have known each other in their pasts for their romance to be possible.

 

[Xeno]

Natasha caught her breath in that scene because she was remembering that one time the guy with the metal arm shot her in the gut to kill another person -- and her, too, but she got lucky. Her luck held out again the second time WS hunted her down and shot her. She might not be so lucky if she has a third go-round with him. None of that would form the basis of a decent relationship, not even in a comic book movie.

 

[Sneakronicity]

Okay, that's the first I've heard of a Rotten Tomatoes interview, but I'll take your word for it. If you're right about it, then Scarjo is pretty explicit that HawkWidow is still a thing. We'll see.

No worries, there are so many interviews around it's hard to watch them all. This was actually a pretty fun interview with the whole cast, and someone posted the links in the Hawkeye thread of the AoU board here if you're interested: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28405497&postcount=157

 

[Minxie]

Natasha caught her breath in that scene because she was remembering that one time the guy with the metal arm shot her in the gut to kill another person -- and her, too, but she got lucky. Her luck held out again the second time WS hunted her down and shot her. She might not be so lucky if she has a third go-round with him.

The point I was making was that there are a number of ways to interpret her facial expressions. Like, it could be as simple as you said but it could easily be more. It was deliberately left ambiguous enough that if they were to say there's more to the story between them in a future movie it wouldn't be a straight up retcon at all.

None of that would form the basis of a decent relationship, not even in a comic book movie.

Sure it would. He put three bullets and a knife in Steve and nearly beat him to death but I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that they're going to reconnect those two friends in Cap 3. The same goes for Sam and Fury, who were both also nearly killed by Bucky but odds are will end up being friends/allies with him one day down the road. The guy wasn't in control of his own mind and had suffered brutally to get to that state. No one is going to perpetually hold his actions against him when he had no free will. And the fact that Natasha is one of the few people in the world who could understand what he'd gone through and also what he's going through now as he tries to forge ahead and right his past wrongs (he's got red in his ledger too) makes her the most likely person, behind Steve that is, capably of empathizing with and forgiving him.

 

[TalismanRing]

Okay, that's the first I've heard of a Rotten Tomatoes interview, but I'll take your word for it. If you're right about it, then Scarjo is pretty explicit that HawkWidow is still a thing. We'll see.

It's a thing but what kind of thing we don't know. Scarlett also said it wasn't necessarily romantic. She also said Natasha and Steve had an intimate friendship and they were leaving the door open bit.

The push-pull between Cap and Widow leads to a complex, sexy screen dynamic that at moments threatens to tip into romance, but their relationship ultimately is painted as nothing quite so black and white.


“It’s not really defined,” Evans said. “I think that’s what makes it more dynamic. It’s what makes it more similar to life. Not every single male and female bond is going to be rooted in romance. Sometimes movies make things too perfect.”


“But the chemistry is there, which is important,” Johansson added. “Just because they’re not romantically involved doesn’t mean that they’re not still attracted to each other as people. I like that the door is open a little bit.”


LA Times

Basically she's messing with us on multiple fronts and keeping her options open.

How Natasha of her.

 

[herolee10]

So Black Widow has flirted, albeit as a means of being undercover, with the likes of Bruce Banner and Tony Stark, while having a "intimate" friendship with Clint and Steve, whom she had shared a kiss with in regards to the latter.

Really, it's just Thor that's left out from this group.lol

 

[cherokeesam]

So Black Widow has flirted, albeit as a means of being undercover, with the likes of Bruce Banner and Tony Stark, while having a "intimate" friendship with Clint and Steve, whom she had shared a kiss with in regards to the latter.

Really, it's just Thor that's left out from this group.lol

Yep, Movie Natasha is just like Comic Book Natasha.

Personally, I'm wondering if they'll bring her into the Daredevil show next year. Natasha's dated a lot --- a LOT --- of heroes over the decades, but by far, her "one true love" has always been Matt Murdock. Wonder if that'll be the case in the MCU.

 

[speno94]

To me, I think the perfect moment to mention Hawkeye in Cap 2 like where he is and how Natasha feels etc would have been the scene in Sam Wilson's house where Steve and Natasha hide out after everyone is trying to kill them and after the Zola HYDRA twist.

In that scene, you see Natasha having wet hair, clearly just came out of the shower and she maybe could have looked at her Hawkeye arrow necklace or putting it on after her shower and you see on her face how she feels and Steve sees her looking at her necklace etc and says "I'm sure Barton will be fine" or something like that, then Natasha says where he is, how she feels etc and then the scene continues how it does in the film with Sam talking about his wings.

What do you think? Either this or the bunker scene with Maria Hill and Nick Fury where we find out he didn't die would have been the best place to mention Hawkeye.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

The Sam's house bit would have worked great, I think.

 

[Big Lob]

Boy, this thread is all about who Black Widow will/should date. Find that a little demoralizing. I liked Captain America and Black Widow's kind of brother/sis like relationship. That just me?

 

[Sneakronicity]

Nah, I'm with ya, Big Lob. I loved their dynamic and am really glad the writers didn't try to force the romance angle. I think they played off each other really well, and with Sam also.

 

[Wildcard]

I honestly don't really care about romance when it comes to BW. There's so much more that her character can offer besides being bogged down by being thrown into a relationship with another hero.

 

[AnneFan]

I honestly don't really care about romance when it comes to BW. There's so much more that her character can offer besides being bogged down by being thrown into a relationship with another hero.

Yes, agreed. She's got the skills and sassy attitude which I find appealing. Pulling up in the Corvette and speeding off, for example, or using the computer while Cap fights a goon without blinking an eye.

 

[TalismanRing]

I honestly don't really care about romance when it comes to BW. There's so much more that her character can offer besides being bogged down by being thrown into a relationship with another hero.

We could say that for every hero though - male or female and yet that doesn't stop romance/pairing talk for male heroes. So I don't think it has to be an either/or proposition for a female hero.

 

[Matt.S99]

Did a drawing of BW from TWS. Have to get it rescanned because the quality is way too low for me.